Except for Kabir..why aren't the other Indian Muslims commenting on this thread?
My experiences with Indian Muslims have been nothing but negative. They have cursed, condemned Pakistan, refused to even back the Kashmiris and have displayed generalized venom against Pakistan. Look I understand, if Indian Muslims love their India...fine, wonderful..But don't trash Pakistan or this Rajput will not leave you in peace. I am not saying all Indian Muslims are this way nor am I condemning them, but isn't it sad to see more constructive words coming from Indian hindus?
Due to the reasons mentioned above, I have taken myself out of these internal affairs of India..I mean I back our Kashmiri brothers and sisters because they never considered themselves Indian. What right do Pakistanis have in speaking on a matter related to an internal affair of India?
Remember, Pakistan was a choice many Muslims migrated from India and I respect their courage and they are dearer to me than my Punjabi brothers, but those who stayed in India with the dream of secularism...now that the dream is going sour, it is their choices that have led to these events, not the creation of Pakistan.
My apologies if I offend any Indian Muslim or Pakistani.
Why aren't Indian muslims coming here? I don't know. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that if an Indian muslim speaks of discrimination he is lauded, but if he speaks as an Indian nationlist he is labelled a stooge of hindus or worse, a hindu in disguise. I won't take names, but you have to only look at this forum to understand the contempt reserved for such people.
My house has a small grocery store and I was there in the store. A mob came from Charanagar. Five hundred strong mob came from Kubernagar. Two thousand strong mob came. They started riot, burning houses. We ran to nearby Gangotri society and took shelter on the terrace. The mob started burning people at around 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening. The mob stripped all the girls of the locality including my 22-year-old daughter and raped them. My daughter was engaged. Seven members of my family were burnt that includes my wife (age 40), my son (18), my son (14), my son (7), my daughter (4), my daughter (2). Police did not allow me to climb down from the terrace. My 8-year-old son has survived with 20 percent burn injuries and he remembers his mother. What can I do? My house and shop has been burnt.... They hit her on the head and burnt. She had 80 percent burn injuries.
Tragically consistent with the longstanding pattern of attacks on minorities and Dalits (or so-called untouchables) in India, and with previous episodes of large-scale communal violence in India, scores of Muslim girls and women were brutally raped in Gujarat before being killed.
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Good Ol' Indians still living in denial and showing their sensitivity towards the Muslims by shoving the blame on the Muslim victims and telling them to get educated.
My house has a small grocery store and I was there in the store. A mob came from Charanagar. Five hundred strong mob came from Kubernagar. Two thousand strong mob came. They started riot, burning houses. We ran to nearby Gangotri society and took shelter on the terrace. The mob started burning people at around 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening. The mob stripped all the girls of the locality including my 22-year-old daughter and raped them. My daughter was engaged. Seven members of my family were burnt that includes my wife (age 40), my son (18), my son (14), my son (7), my daughter (4), my daughter (2). Police did not allow me to climb down from the terrace. My 8-year-old son has survived with 20 percent burn injuries and he remembers his mother. What can I do? My house and shop has been burnt.... They hit her on the head and burnt. She had 80 percent burn injuries.
Tragically consistent with the longstanding pattern of attacks on minorities and Dalits (or so-called untouchables) in India, and with previous episodes of large-scale communal violence in India, scores of Muslim girls and women were brutally raped in Gujarat before being killed.
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Good Ol' Indians still living in denial and showing their sensitivity towards the Muslims by shoving the blame on the Muslim victims and telling them to get educated.
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we know that but keepr writing about gory details you seem to be
enjoying this tragedy and allah knows what is your real objective.
My house has a small grocery store and I was there in the store. A mob came from Charanagar. Five hundred strong mob came from Kubernagar. Two thousand strong mob came. They started riot, burning houses. We ran to nearby Gangotri society and took shelter on the terrace. The mob started burning people at around 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening. The mob stripped all the girls of the locality including my 22-year-old daughter and raped them. My daughter was engaged. Seven members of my family were burnt that includes my wife (age 40), my son (18), my son (14), my son (7), my daughter (4), my daughter (2). Police did not allow me to climb down from the terrace. My 8-year-old son has survived with 20 percent burn injuries and he remembers his mother. What can I do? My house and shop has been burnt.... They hit her on the head and burnt. She had 80 percent burn injuries.
Tragically consistent with the longstanding pattern of attacks on minorities and Dalits (or so-called untouchables) in India, and with previous episodes of large-scale communal violence in India, scores of Muslim girls and women were brutally raped in Gujarat before being killed.
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Good Ol' Indians still living in denial and showing their sensitivity towards the Muslims by shoving the blame on the Muslim victims and telling them to get educated.
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I do not know what was your intention of pasting the above item. I have read more horror stories in Gujarat and am very critical about the administration. But, what do you think an ordinary Hindu can do. We can write to newspapers, to policy makers, hold rallies, seminars and follow law. Blaming the religion or the country shows the innate hatred of the people.
It's a foregone conclusion that the only people who are clapping at the tragedy of gujarat are Malik73 and $2B. I think all Indians are pretty much clear on how we feel about it. And have said it many times.
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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Except for Kabir..why aren't the other Indian Muslims commenting on this thread?
My experiences with Indian Muslims have been nothing but negative. They have cursed, condemned Pakistan, refused to even back the Kashmiris and have displayed generalized venom against Pakistan. .
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What do you want to hear Rajput ? That Indian Muslims should become traitor and give Panah to every Terrorist that lands from the other side of the border ? Or conspire with them and keep quiet when his muslim pakistani brothers are cursing India, calling Indian Muslims as traitors. Why do you want Indian muslims to favour Pakistan ? You can condemn and curse India along with your Hindus then Why can't we condemn Pakistan ? How would you feel If Indian Hindus start calling Pakistani Hindus traitors and expect them to give shelter to RAW Agents and conspire with them ?
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Remember, Pakistan was a choice many Muslims migrated from India and I respect their courage and they are dearer to me than my Punjabi brothers, but those who stayed in India with the dream of secularism...now that the dream is going sour, it is their choices that have led to these events, not the creation of Pakistan.
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RF Brother, those who chose to stay in India were brave too. It took a lot of courage from them to stay back as a minority. If you think that our secularism dream has gone sour then I can say the same thing about of many muslims who went to Pakistan in the hope of living in a muslim land and their dreams have gone sour too. India is not a perfect place to live but It is as good as any Muslim Land in the world.
As far as this thread goes - Both 2b and malik73 are ignorant and have no knowledge of India, I really doubt if they have ever been to India. You just need to look at their posts to know about that. They are no different from the Modis and Togadia's who tried to Incite Hindus against muslims, these gentlemen are trying their tricks on muslims , rather unsuccessfully though, and that's why their frustration.
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*Originally posted by karina: *
Why aren't Indian muslims coming here? I don't know. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that if an Indian muslim speaks of discrimination he is lauded, but if he speaks as an Indian nationlist he is labelled a stooge of hindus or worse, a hindu in disguise. I won't take names, but you have to only look at this forum to understand the contempt reserved for such people.
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I believe Kabir is an Indian Muslim, and if you read the posts over the years (if you are really a new member?) he has been vilified as a Pakistani and a traitor to India by the Hinduvta supporters on this board for condemning the BJP-RSS terrorists. The world over knows what has happened to the Muslims in Gujrat last year, so you don't have to be Indian to know that. It seems a lot of Indian's want to forget or deny the genoncide of Muslims in Gujrat, and the general discrimination of Muslims outlined in Zakk's orignal post.
I don't think anyone has any issues with Kabir. But it is the happy clappers like Malik and $2B that actually feel glee at the deaths of Indian muslims. As if, it somehow validates their myopic and ill-informed internet views. Asif has it right...go see what is happening in India. Be it muslim, be it hindu, be it christian..be it buddhist, parsi, jewish..there is hope..there is excitement about the future and today. This is what burns these guys up. jalney waaley jaltey hain..
As ghastly and atrocious the gujarat tragedy was...to the dismay of Malik and $2B it didn't translate into a nationwide tragedy. THomas Firedman gave the reason why. One word....DEMOCRACY.
AS far as Zakk's post. If you compare the situation of the muslims to let's say th esituation of the hindus, the curernt numbers are true. However, with patience and a lot of hardwork from he gov't and all Indians, the trend is actually untrue. Somethings to factor in are birthrates, which drive down the per capita GDP, affirmative action programs, which have worked beautifully for caste based minorites and what is direly needed is the repulsion of a separate civil code for a minorty.
There is no point educating them matsui. If you read their posts you will know why no one is intersted in posting in WA forum. They will read what they want to. Because in the same time Article I saw hope and faith in our secularism, where they saw hate and that's what they posted, From the same article :-
"...Although he, too, is angry about Gujarat, Javed refuses to concede any common bond with Umar. To Javed, there is no contradiction between his dismay over Gujarat and his job, which requires him to hunt down self-styled Muslim avengers. "There's a world of difference between being upset by Gujarat and being a committed militant," he says. Wrath is not the only emotion sweeping India's Muslim community, he adds.* Progressive Muslims like Javed are increasingly expressing alarm at the dangers of radicalization among both Hindus and Muslims. And in the past year, a growing number of such moderates have called for Muslims to modernize and show the flexibility needed to begin bridging India's bitter division.** In her steadfast refusal to see Hindus as the enemy, Sheikh personifies this progressive outlook. "I just don't understand these old hatreds," she says. "I could never live like that." *
India is not perfect, we have our own problems and I do believe we have failed in many ways esp in educating our people, providing them opportunities and employment and that in my view has been a major reason for all this hatred and violence because it is very easy to incite an educated and unemployed than an educated one. Discrimination is everywhere in every country and those who are incompetent and incapable to compete only cry about it. My parents raised 8 of us and all of us went thru the same system, same education as many hindus in our town and I am proud to say that all of us are economically, socially better than many Hindu colleagues of my father. And no my father never went to Arabia to earn forex to support us, he didn't have to, he worked hard for us and no system could stop us.
‘They made me chant slogans, I did and yet they didn’t spare me’
Milind Ghatwai
Godhra, September 10: ‘‘I told them, ‘You are like my brothers and uncles, please leave me alone.’ They made me chant slogans. We did everything they ordered us to do, and yet they didn’t spare me, killed my three-year-old daughter Saleha and the others.’’
Bilkis Yakub Rasool, who wears a cloak and rarely speaks, shudders as she recalls how, three days after the Godhra train attack, 14 of her relatives were killed and she was raped and left for dead.
The mob included, she says, elders from her village, Randhikpur, in Dahod. ‘‘Before my marriage I used to visit their houses to supply milk. How could I not recognise them?’’ she asks.
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*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
There is no point educating them matsui. If you read their posts you will know why no one is intersted in posting in WA forum. They will read what they want to. Because in the same time Article I saw hope and faith in our secularism, where they saw hate and that's what they posted, From the same article :-
"...Although he, too, is angry about Gujarat, Javed refuses to concede any common bond with Umar. To Javed, there is no contradiction between his dismay over Gujarat and his job, which requires him to hunt down self-styled Muslim avengers. "There's a world of difference between being upset by Gujarat and being a committed militant," he says. Wrath is not the only emotion sweeping India's Muslim community, he adds.* Progressive Muslims like Javed are increasingly expressing alarm at the dangers of radicalization among both Hindus and Muslims. And in the past year, a growing number of such moderates have called for Muslims to modernize and show the flexibility needed to begin bridging India's bitter division.** In her steadfast refusal to see Hindus as the enemy, Sheikh personifies this progressive outlook. "I just don't understand these old hatreds," she says. "I could never live like that." *
India is not perfect, we have our own problems and I do believe we have failed in many ways esp in educating our people, providing them opportunities and employment and that in my view has been a major reason for all this hatred and violence because it is very easy to incite an educated and unemployed than an educated one. Discrimination is everywhere in every country and those who are incompetent and incapable to compete only cry about it. My parents raised 8 of us and all of us went thru the same system, same education as many hindus in our town and I am proud to say that all of us are economically, socially better than many Hindu colleagues of my father. And no my father never went to Arabia to earn forex to support us, he didn't have to, he worked hard for us and no system could stop us.
So please tell me why should I blame the system ?
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i agree with you it is india that will loose muslim talent if they are dicriminated afterall smartest man is abdul kalam and richest man is
ajit premji.
What do you want to hear Rajput ? That Indian Muslims should become traitor and give Panah to every Terrorist that lands from the other side of the border ? Or conspire with them and keep quiet when his muslim pakistani brothers are cursing India, calling Indian Muslims as traitors. Why do you want Indian muslims to favour Pakistan ? You can condemn and curse India along with your Hindus then Why can't we condemn Pakistan ? How would you feel If Indian Hindus start calling Pakistani Hindus traitors and expect them to give shelter to RAW Agents and conspire with them ? **
Asif: Obviosly you did not read one word I wrote. If you had you would know that I am not expecting anything. Indian MUslims loving their country is not the issue here, it is the diatribes of Indian Muslims towards Pakistan. Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs love their country but repect India, thats the type of classy attitude I am talking about.
Not that it matters but when do you Pakistanis bashing Indian Muslims? I am curios to see examples because this very thread shows that many Pakistani guppies stand by Indian Muslims.
**
RF Brother, those who chose to stay in India were brave too. It took a lot of courage from them to stay back as a minority. If you think that our secularism dream has gone sour then I can say the same thing about of many muslims who went to Pakistan in the hope of living in a muslim land and their dreams have gone sour too. India is not a perfect place to live but It is as good as any Muslim Land in the world.
**
Bravery does not mean learning Vande Matram ok? Bravery is leaving your home, jobs, friends and relatives to migrate to a new land. I would extend the same courage to those Hindus/Sikhs that left Pakistan. Staying as a minority was a choice wasnt it? It was pretty damn convenient to wake up the next day as citizens of independent India.
Yea I knew you would bring up the "Muhajir" issue (I hate the word btw). As things stand, Migrants from India are the richest, most educated and most powerful group in Pakistan,. while India's Muslims are despised minority. Even if you say Indias Muslims are doing well (Which I expect you to), they nowhere as lose to the status of those who migrated to Pakistan. Khair forget about the Indian Muslims, lets talk about the Sharnartis huh? We all know how they were despised by the Gujus and other North Indians...Look at them now, those talented Hindus/Sikhs are at the top..what can I say, theres something special about Pakistanis :D
Asif, straight out, whatever you Indian Muslims have to face it's got to be own your own. Pakistani government DOES NOT have any right to interfere in India's internal matters. Good or bad, the choices made by Indian Muslims must be their own.
i agree with you it is india that will loose muslim talent if they are dicriminated afterall smartest man is abdul kalam and richest man is
ajit premji.
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Rvikz, Bill Gates and Albert Einstein do NOT represent all White Americans...get my drift?
Kudos to Premji fort being such a smart businessman, I am going to agree with Matsui on one issue: Economics is the great equalizer.
RF, where ever did you get an idea that Indian muslims are despised? One idiots views do not a national mantra make. I would urge you to take a trip to India. Indian muslims in states like karnataka, Tamil Nadu, pretty much most of the south, which is not the hindi belt have a much higher percapita income than hindus in Bihar and UP. India is marching forward, ugly episodes like Godhra are a minor blip in the rich and varied and valuable history of the country.
WE have racists like there are racists in every country. The good thing is that for the first time in Modern India, the politicos cannot play one group against each other. The future of India is going to be marked by regional imbalances not ethnic.
Rajput, how did you get that idea that Indian muslims are nowhere close to Mohajirs in wealth and status? Is there some statistic or study done to show that?
You're absolutely right that one Premji does not reflect the majority of the muslims, but how come there is no Premji in Pakistan, mohajir or otherwise. Move on from Premji and you will see scores of rich muslims in every industry you care to mention. YOu have not visited India so perhaps you're thinking that beyond Premji and film stars muslims are a poor and despised minority. Not true. Name any industry and I will tell you a few muslim names that rival any multimillionaire.
Matsui is right about the south. I'd mentioned Bangalore before. The apt we brought was built by muslim developers, one of the biggest names in the south. The agent was muslim, and my immediate neighbor is a single muslim woman. Can you say the same thing about Pakistan?
Pakistanis generally will never understand what a composite society is. They do not have a sizeable minority. In any part of India, you will see a large minority population and people live together. Incidents like Gujarat are a blur on the democratic norms of the society and they expect that all the remaining Hindus take up arms and slay the VHP/BJP etc. But, they forget that India is a democracy. We can never do that, as we have to follow the law, based on our constitution. Even the worst offenders have the right to protection and fair trial.
Muslims are successful all over the country, If you point that there are poor muslims, then there are also poor Hindus, and in much worse conditions. Poverty is not the bashion of a particular religion. It is only hardwork, determination and courage that will make you excel and achieve in your field.