indian Train incident NOT by Muslim MOBS!

[Ibrahim]

Originally posted by anand:
We do not have any right to hate Muslims, but we do have a right to hate talibanised Muslims.

Ibrahim says : Ah huh! so that explains why the hindus are murdering their own citizens and BTW what sort of hindu are you?

Read!

** INDIAN ARMY KILLS 4677 KASHMIRI PEOPLE DURING YEAR 2001 **
http://www.kmsnews.org/databank/Freedom%20Struggle/HRAbuses/kms/year2001.htm

In Indian held Kashmir, Indian army killed 4677 Kashmiri people during the year 2001 from January 1 to December 31 while **682 fell victim to extra judicial murders by the Indian forces in fake encounters and custodial killings. **

According to the statistics compiled by the Research Section of Kashmir Media Service, ** 519 women were raped or molested during the preceding year while 2395 children orphaned and 871 women widowed. **

** 6058 civilians were illegally arrested by the Indian police and forces personnel and 8002 tortured and injured during the year. ** The number of Kashmiri citizens including prominent leaders and freedom movement activists under detention at present in various jails across held Kashmir
and India stands at ** 5605. They had been arrested on fake charges and are being held under imprisonment for indefinite periods without trials. **

During their ravage and plundering the ** Indian troops destroyed or damaged 1988 structures of various kinds including residential houses, schools and mosques.**

The statistical data compiled by KMS Research Section also reveals that **374 Kashmiris were killed by the Indian army in held Kashmir during the month of December 2001 alone. The figure includes 265 men, 13 women, one child and 95 citizen mostly youth murdered in custody. 688 common citizens
were tortured or critically injured, 579 arrested and 170 houses and shops arsoned during the preceding month of December 2001. During the month, 13 persons were kidnapped and their whereabouts are still unknown. 54 women were molested or gang raped and 123 children orphaned in the month under review.
**

Ibrahim says: Anand dear, work on it, and the figures are just figures only when you end up in the receiving end, they will indeed make sense you.

regards
Ibrahim

** walk your talk**

[rvikz]

ibrahim following the state wide muslim
population
muslims
constituting 25 per cent population of West Bengal, 33 per cent of Assam, 24 per cent of Kerala, 20 per cent of Uttar Pradesh, 16 per cent of Bihar, 14 per cent of Karnataka, 12 per cent of Gujarat, Rajasthan and AP and 11 per cent of Delhi.

so basically there is no communal problem
in west bengal assam and kerela.
assam problmes more of tribal and ethinic.

[kabir]

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
we do have a right to hate talibanised Muslims. People like Kabir, an Indian Muslim, Imam bukhari are talibanised Muslims. Bal Thhakre also falls in that category. They can do us a favor, that is just leave India at peace, may go to some Arab country or Pakistan may be.
[/quote]

WELL ANAND
what are you hating me for?
for showing you your ugly side?
for speaking out aginst the holocast carried out against my brothers by the state?
me taliban? no infact im a convent educated jeans wearing young man. and its really young men like me among my community who must come forward.

[kumarakn]

Ever so "I didn't see that" Mods, how is Ibrahim's hate contributions relate to the title of the discussion?

Stop being a Narendra Modi against vandals! Or if you want an example from your own country, Stop being like a Musharaff who gave amnesty to Islamic terrorists!

---

I have quoted a news service that explains how Muslim youth regularly stole hindu baggages from trains at Godhra. And how the problem began, and how RPF immdly reacted, and how 2 Muslims got killed. My sources are post-inquiry not assumptions.

If somebody has anything relevant let us keep this thread alive. Or if Ibrahim wants to spread hatred, we have a whole forum for it.

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited March 12, 2002).]

[unholysaint]

Ibrahim,

Yes you are right. I did miss that part. I guess I will have to accept the ugly words TILL some hindu explains how they interpret the words.... You know what... These words are SO SIMILAR to the words of TALMUD, the Jewish bible.. You know they even talk about being the chosen people.. and stuff. Funny how they pay taxes to the US government "Hey! why should i pay taxes.. I am from the chosen!" . Yeah right! chosen by Hamas and Hizbullah!
About Taliban, let me ask all of those who label taliban as the BAD guys. Do you know the history of the Afghan region? How barbaric these people are? When taliban toook control, that country was a mess made by Russia, USA, Pakistan, India, Iran and Saudia... Now thats alot of countries making a mess ok! I ask everyone "Who of you stood up and said " I will help them, i will donate them money.." No one did! They introduced Law and Order then, atleast got the system rolling. And in the end they even banned the growth of drugs. Now in my view, bringing a country out of such a mess is almost impossible without help from anyone.
Read the inside stories now after the taliban have been uprooted. Drug is on the rise again.. Warlords popping up and frequent roiting, in the presence of the so-called Allied force..
In short, considering the resources at their disposal, they did a pretty good job!

---

Dont tell your God how big your problem is.. Tell your problem how big your God is!
Jazak allah khair

[Victory]

Ibrahim
Stop quoting Manu Smrithis and Vishnu Smrithis to malign Hinduism.

They are not the holy books for Hindus. I can just pity you, for you are wasting your precision time reading these.

Remember these books were written by rulers and other influential people long time ago.

I personally discard them as they are not in line with what Hinduism teaches. What it teaches, can be found from the "Gita".

[Changez_like]

[quote]
Originally posted by Victory:
*Ibrahim
Stop quoting Manu Smrithis and Vishnu Smrithis to malign Hinduism.

They are not the holy books for Hindus. I can just pity you, for you are wasting your precision time reading these.

Remember these books were written by rulers and other influential people long time ago.

I personally discard them as they are not in line with what Hinduism teaches. What it teaches, can be found from the "Gita". *
[/quote]

May be you are a different sect of Hinduism? Some people may still be reading and following books that you discarded?

Whatever Kumarakn posted "youth use to steal passengers bags".... may be it is true. But is it the real cause of all the vandalism against Muslims? Anyone with some intellect will disagree with it.

Did the police who fired on the Muslim crowd tried to solve the problem when Hindus kidnapped the merchants daughter? want to bet anything here?

---

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

[Indian_Muslim_1]

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** May be you are a different sect of Hinduism? Some people may still be reading and following books that you discarded?

But is it the real cause of all the vandalism against Muslims?

**
[/quote]

There's no definition of "Hinduism" . Hindu is from the Arabic word "Hind" **and this word was used by the Muslims to describe the Indians. **For a while, the word "Hindu" was EVEN used to describe the NEW-MUSLIM converts of INDIAN orgin. However, slowly it began to be used to denote their religion, and during the British rule the word "Hindu" began to be exclusively used to denote a religion.

If this is not true, then please answer JUST ONE question:

(1) ** Hindus claim that their religion is 5000 years old. BUT WHY DO WE NOT FIND ANY DOCUMENTS CONTAINING THE WORD HINDU FROM ANCIENT TIMES?

Hinduism is basically a PAGAN RELIGION and the Hindus had not sense of religious identity. **

Today, for many Hindus, their identity is hatred for Islam. That's their religion. (not much unlike the pagan Arabs who tortured and persecuted the Muslims).

** If Muslims had wanted, they could have divided the Hindus into many different religions depending on their different gods ,culture, customs, practises, languages, regions etc ** But Muslims do not have that sort of evil mind which the Hindus have. Look at the Hindus, they are trying so hard to create divisions among the Muslims.

Changezi, just because you come from a Muslim country, you have no clue how much the kafirs hate us. Muslims are generally very naive and unsuspecting, and so many of them just can't believe how vicious the kuffar can be. It is just not compatible with the Muslim psyche. Had you been from a Kafir country, you'd know.

The Holy Qur'an says:
Ah! ye are those who love them, but they love you not,...... (Holy Qur'an 3: 119)

Ibrahim is doing a terrific job, May Allah bless him.

[This message has been edited by Indian_Muslim (edited March 12, 2002).]

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

Dear readers, Firstly I am looking at the religious angle of this thread and not the political one, for such dicussions are best done in the world forum.

with regards to the religious angle, this may not be pleasant to read but under mentioned are authentic hindu sacred texts and are conveyed for educational purposes . One cannot grow in wisdom by hiding the facts due to whatever unpleasantness it may cause to others as such I have opted to reveal them in this forum after withholding them for a long time.

Rvikz dear, This is a religious forum, the root cause for all these violence and evil machinations of hindus is found in their religious teachings of Hinduism.

** Just like Judaism, Hinduism promotes racism ( chosen people mentality) and as such none can live with them on equal footing.** These riots are pre-planned by the current Hindutva government scoundrels and sponsored by the hindu thugs (VHP,RSS, Bajrang dal etc) . ** They are designed to destroy Muslim wealth and property and loot what remains of their properties in India. **

Research on this shows that, the tell tale signs are similar to past events where Hindus have gone amok (murderous frenzy) and destroyed Muslim prosperity in India to enrich themselves using religion as a guise.

Go here to read the comparison http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15032002/1503200208.htm

Coming back to how evil this religion is , just note what it teaches concerning women ( any women who has finished her period) can be systematically raped in Hinduism , according to its sacred texts.

Read.

Surely a woman who has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period is the most auspicious of women. ** When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her,** saying: ‘I take away the splendour from you with my virility and splendour.’ And she is sure to become bereft of splendour. If, on the other hand, she accedes to his wish, he should say: ‘I confer splendour on you with my virility and splendour.’ And then they are both sure to become full of splendour. If he wants her to love him, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, and stroke her vagina as he softly recites: ‘From my body you spring – from every inch! Born from my heart, you are my body’s pith! Make her crazy about me, as if she’s been hit with a dart carrying a poisoned tip.’ If he does not want her to become pregnant, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, blow into her mouth and suck back the breath, as he says: ‘I take back the semen from you with my virility and semen.’ And she is sure to become bereft of semen. If, on the other hand, he wants her to become pregnant, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, suck in the breath first, and then blow it back into her mouth, as he says: ‘I deposit the semen in you with my virility and semen.’ And she is sure to become pregnant Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 6:4:4-12.

Ibrahim says : hence the rules of engagement are:-

1. You can/should approach any women who has changed her clothes after her menstrual period

2. First you invite her to satisfy you

3. Second you try bribing her

4. Failing which you should beat her with a stick or fist and overpower her (meaning you rape her without mercy)

Now if this sounds strange and unbelievable , the Brahmins had a more elaborate plan to get free sex all the time, whilst making the women believe they are being purified for their unchaste acts.

Read!

** “A woman who has been unchaste should worship Siva ** in his calm aspect, Siva who is Kama. ** Then she should summon a Brahmin and give herself to him, thinking, ‘This is Kama who has come for the sake of sexual pleasure.’ And whatever the Brahmin wishes, the sensuous woman should do. For thirteen months she should honour in this way any Brahmin who comes to the house for the sake of sexual pleasures, and there is no immorality in this for noble ladies or prostitutes.” ** – Matsya Purana 70:40-60; cf. Mahabharata III:2:23.

Ibrahim says: If this is not deranged enough , find out why children had to be married off as soon as possible and why women in India only go out at nights in many parts of India .

Read!

** “A damsel whose menses begin to appear (while she is living) at her father’s house, before she has been betrothed to a man, has to be considered as a degraded woman: by taking her (without the consent of her kinsmen) a man commits no wrong.” ** – Visnusmrti 24:41.

Ibrahim says: meaning women can be raped wherever and whenever found on the streets , thus it became a necessity to marry off girls, even before they reached their puberty in ancient times. In addition it became a necessity to kill them at birth, because of Hindu practices in India . which to this day is prevalent in India due to what Hinduism teaches concerning women..

Now if that was not sufficient, try finding out who are the devadasi’s ( temple prostitutes)

** Hence Hinduism is an evil, when accepted and practiced according to its scriptures. Which is what we are witnessing today in India, where hindutva’s are reaping havoc due to their false beliefs and desire to subjugate others.**

Meaning it is all about subjugation of the weak, which is what the Muslim minority is facing in india under the hindu racist regime.

regards
Ibrahim

** A moments insight is sometimes worth a life’s experience **

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all

Dear unholysaint, Hmm….apparently you have not dealt with hindus, they are three kinds of hindus

One kind of Hindu will flatly deny such texts are a part of their scared teachings, they will claim manu and any other texts that exposed their evil is not a part of Hinduism.

The second kind of hindu lunatic will claim in Hinduism you don’t have to follow any scripture and everyone can do what they like .

There is one more kind which will claim only the gita is followed in Hinduism, not realizing the importance of the veda’s and smrti’s and purana’s

** Now the learned hindu (truly practicing Brahmins) who actually practices classic Hinduism will tell you this:- **

Classical Hinduism has three distinct strands, or paths. These paths are pursued during a succession of lives with a general goal for the individual to be released from their karmic existence. The three paths are named Karmamarga (the Way of Action), Jnanamarga (the Way of Knowledge) and Bhaktimarga (the Way of Devotion). Each Path, or Way, has a major book associated with it.

Karmamarga   - ** The Manavadharmasastra, or the Laws of Manu, written between 200 BCE and 200 CE. The Laws of Manu are based on earlier Vedic and Hindu books, generally referred to as the Sutras, of which Manu's is the most important.**  The Sutras date back to about 600 BCE. The Laws of Manu lay out the Hindu caste system, describe the stages of life, and the rounds of life.


Jnanamarga - The Upanishads developed between 600 BCE and 200 BCE. The Upanishads lay out the secrete, esoteric knowledge of Hinduism.


Bhaktimarga - The Bhagavadgita is mostly concerned with tendencies within Hinduism toward monotheism. It was written about 200 BCE.

[quote]
You know what... These words are SO SIMILAR to the words of TALMUD, the Jewish bible.. You know they even talk about being the chosen people.. and stuff. Funny how they pay taxes to the US government "Hey! why should i pay taxes.. I am from the chosen!" .

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: absolutely, the Brahmin were the Muslims who earlier distorted the revelations given to prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) same as the Muslims who distorted the revelations given to prophet Musa (pbuh) who ended up calling themselves jews . ** Thus both of them ended up making themselves the chosen people and both of them are the racists of this planet with adulterated scriptures as the core of their belief system.**

Even in trade a Hindu ( chettiar) and a Jew both involve themselves in USURY/interest to make their living.

Regards
Ibrahim.

[Ibrahim]

Originally posted by Victory:
Ibrahim Stop quoting Manu Smrithis and Vishnu Smrithis to malign Hinduism.
They are not the holy books for Hindus. I can just pity you, for you are wasting your precision time reading these.

Ibrahim says : Man you hindus are so predictable and just plain pathetic, one can only laugh at your foolishness.

Try telling this to your Hindu priests in India and he will have you sacrificed to kali on Friday night.

Remember these books were written by rulers and other influential people long time ago.

Ibrahim says LOL! Keep fooling yourself as much as you want but it only works for the ignorant

Here let me give you some pointers concerning your books.

1. Veda written about 1000 to 800 BCE
2. Manu, written between 200 BCE and 200 CE.
3. Upanishads developed between 600 BCE and 200 BCE
4. Bhagavad gita was written about 200 BCE

Go here for some mind boggling expose on hindu historical FRAUD http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/120202/detide01.asp

Which reveals

1. Valmiki’s Ramayana, which contained 6,000 verses in the beginning, came to have 24,000 verses by the 12th century AD. ** Hence the historical existence of Rama seems to be doubtful. **

2. Mahabharata consisted of 8,800 verses in the beginning, and the text **was known as Jaya. ** These rose to 24,000 later, and the text came to be known as Bharata.

** The final number rose to 100,000, and the text came to be known as Mahabharata. **

3. Krishna was actively associated with Mathura, but this place was not settled until the 7th century BC (M.C. Joshi in An Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology, II, ed. A. Ghosh, pp. 283-86).

I personally discard them as they are not in line with what Hinduism teaches. What it teaches, can be found from the “Gita”.

Ibrahim says: ah huh! And what does the gita teaches that the Vedas . smrtis does not teach?

Regards
Ibrahim

[mm10]

God bless you Ibrahim for your endeavours and research for exposing things truly

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[rvikz]

this article explains kind of conflict going on.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/Mileswinter2002.htm

[sundaram]

ibrahim,
I quote from the same passage that you had reffered to
"It would be wrong to think that the presentation of archaeological findings on Ayodhya and Mathura will hurt religious feelings. People worship gods because of faith and belief, not because of archaeological finds. "

What archaeological evidence exists for allah’s existence. The facts are as follows: An illiterate went into a cave regularly, conveniently claimed an angelic form that nobody else ever managed to see spoke to him and the what he said is the word of god. Other than the cave & the iliterate person there is no other archeological evidence. And any excavations in Makkah that seek to look into any whit of evidence are strictly probibhited. Thus any Islamic archeology to unearth truth about God and his supposed prophet is completely absent.To the credit of hindus, they have tried to put their beliefs to the test of scientific reasoning.

The Quran, with no archeological evidence of any kind to prove its a word of this entity you calim is God in the first place, has not remained unchanged.A work of scholarship whose members were deliberately provided with minimal access to Islamic Historic sites concludes the folowing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html

It demolishes myths of the quran having remained unchanged.

And any country where Islam has set in calamity in thought process has followed. Egypt a nation that built geometrical classics in the form of pyramids cannot put a screw together today wihtout US aid. Iraq & Iran centers of the first agricultural civilizations have cannot produce food to feed their own populace. For a detalied factual account of the progress Islamic countries achived before the 10th century after read Sir Vidia’s travelouges in Islamic Countries. With absolutely no factual evidence to counter his wonderful complilations of facts,attitudes & changes due to the calamitous effect of Islam, they have done the next best thing–Brand him an enemy of Islam. He rightly concludes that that the only tangible effect of Islam has been to build more organized armies. He demolishes several myths attributed to the so called golden age of Islam–they were products of a time when Islam was in no way dominant with reagrd to the people’s personal life & education. His timelines and arguments are simply classical. Is it any wonder the man won bookers and a nobel for literature.

With regards to a privileged class, its very simple in Islam–its a man. Every religion seems to have some gender prejudice built into it but Christianity,Judaism and Hinduism have been subject to reform on this front. Whatever the scriptures say,these religions have gone on & done what is right in terms of preserving human dignity.A lot of stark changes having taken place and the course is set only for improvement. But Islam is unadulterated evil on this front. There are clear instructions to treat women as appurtanences of men. Purdah, Polygamy, cicumcission, economic dependence on men are explicit licence for sexual abuse to promote a man’s pleasure.The mismatch between Men and women in literacy,life expectancy,access to health care,awareness of birth control etc. is the highest in Islamic nations other than Turkey.And the place where the purest form of Islam is practised Saudi Arabia, has more % of women illiterates than any other country w.r.t overall literacy.

But the most depraved of all,Child sex is explicitly condoned–Sex with a 9-year old girl is a non-bailable offence in most countries with life terms attached on convictions. A typical reason a pedophile tends to give in court once he has molested a child is–I did not realize she was that young. In Islam the reason is “Ayesha was far too sexually developed for a 9 year old”. Find any difference. By extension, you can molest a child & quote the hadith & I see no reason why you would be punished under Islamic law. If the reason of being fully formed sexually is admitted for intercourse with a child, with decreasing ages of puberty over the last few centuries, would you have intercousre with a 9-year old. There should be nothing revulsive right. The prophet with impeccable character had carried out the act of penetration with a kid, why not you???

And by extension Islam apparently encourages early marriage for women. The avg. age of a women in Saudi Arabia(where the Quran is pracrtised as a life) is 17 years. A women in fully formed biologically when she is 21 to take the rigours of sex & she becomes mentally matured to raise a child by 25 years. And with marriage at 17 she can even forget about school leave alone a college.This is proven statistical evidence. And folowing the life of the prophet there is no way you can say its wrong to take concubines. A more explicit degradation of the female self is impossible to achive.And the most number of deaths by willfull bleeding are attributed Islmaic countries from circumcission. The hadith commads the followers to restrict a women’s natural sexual pleasure by scrapping off the labia. In rural Islamic soceities, this is carried out with a house knife for the fear of invoking god’s wrath if its not done. The equivalent to man should be cutting off the inner portion of his penis(not the outer skin)–the biological equivalent of the labia for simulating sexual pleasure. Is that done???So its simple–Men are the priveleged class.

Worse still the concept of riding a high donkey through non-verifiable claims is perpetuated by calling for the destrution of Jews. Why, so that we can have Mullah Omars, half paralysed Fahd, Low IQ muftis & Bin Ladens instead of Marx,Einstien,Bohr & Freud.
If calling for the death of another sect by a religion’s founder is not racism what is it may I know. The evnets across the globe prove who is racist–you cannot co-exist with Jews,hindus,Christians or Buddhist(yeah,wait till china sees some democracy. The usighur gems will show their colors).

Any kind of criticism for objective reform is stifled with death threats. Do read Salman Rushdie’s satanic verses. I was convinced this guy was pure genius after “Midnight Children” but the chapter “Mahound” in Satanic Verses was a beauty. He begins the chapter by listing the vices of the evil head of a so-called pagan religion–number of wives & concubines, Endless Sermonizing without any prodcutive work, sex with young kids for increasing virality, selling his concept of god by forming partneships with rivals, tactical retreats, targetting members of a particular community for death etc. When the chapter ends Mohound his rival in promoting another religion had factually done all this with aplomb. The comparison was the best demolishion of Mohammad’s character. I guess the ayatollah was too shrewd to relaize it & simply banned it.

Worse still any road to reform is blocked as being against the book. Hence if Islam as practised in Saudi Arabia & by the Taliban(which is most authentic) is practised women are forever destined for sexual slavery to a man.Afterall christianity accepts today that the Earth goes around the sun while the bible says otherwise but it has done nothing to dimish the belief of their followers. Reform comes from strong belief & a sense of maturity that god means more than following just a book.

As regards to hindu scriptures, the mostly widely read is not the vedas or the manusmriti, its the Gita & the commentaties/recitations of the various schools of hindu thought by Ramanujacharyar, Adi Shankara, the alwars, the nayanmars and a host of other saints. Infact most everyday hindu rituals are tracable to scriptures by these saints. Even accpeting that the scriptures give an elevated position to the brahmin here are the other facts according to it.
1.A Brahmin should beg for a living(Hithoupanishad).
2.A Brahmin is not categorized by birth but by learning(Gita).
3.A Brahmin with his entire family should be a teacher dedicated to the learning of his students(Sage Garga in Mahabaratha on the gurukul system) & expect nothing but food,c.lothing & shelter from the child’s guardians.

The first three aspects are directly violated by the caste system practised. It was at best an abberation of what hinduism preached. Even if you consider the varna system, there are 3 equivalent castes–Brahmin,Kshatriya & Vaishya. They for 80% of the hindu populace. But works like the adwaitha and vishistadwaitha explicity rejected the varna system-- they argued its contary to the will of god. Infact a high brahmin caste today,the Iyengars are a sect of people designated from the so called lower castes as Brahmins as Ramanujacharyar.

Thus reform has been built as a part of religion. To get you off your high donkey here is Einstien(no illeterates here) on the gita:

Albert Einstein:
"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous. "

[This message has been edited by sundaram (edited March 13, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by sundaram (edited March 13, 2002).]

[rvikz]

The traditional theory well documented by the ancient hymns of the Vedas is that a people calling themselves Aryans conquered the native peoples of India and destroyed their forts. Because of language similarities these Aryans are associated particularly with the Iranians and even further back with the origins of the Indo-European language group. The general consensus seems to be that this culture must have begun somewhere in the Russian steppes and Central Asia about 2000 BC, though some have put their origin in Lithuania because of similarity to that language. The branch of these speakers who came to India under the name Aryans, which means "noble ones," is the Indo-Iranian group. In fact "Iran" derives from the Persian cognate of the word for Aryan. Other branches spread into Greece and western Asia as Hittites, Kassites, and Mitanni. A rock inscription found at Boghaz Koi dated about 1400 BC commemorating a treaty between the Mitanni and Hittites invokes the Aryan gods Indra, Varuna, Mitra, and the twins Nasatya (Asvins).

The ancient writings of the Persian Avesta and the Hindu Vedas share many gods and beliefs. Eventually they must have split, causing later authors to demonize the divinities of their adversaries. In early Hindu writings the asuras were respected gods, but later they became the demons most hated, while Ahura Mazda became the chief god of the Zoroastrians. (Persian often uses an h where Sanskrit uses an s, such as haoma for soma.) On the other hand the Hindu term for divinities, devas, was used by Zoroastrians to describe the devils from which even English word is derived. Some scholars have concluded that the ancient Hindus did not want to admit that they came from Iran, and therefore the origin of the Aryans is never mentioned in the ancient texts although they frankly boast of their conquest over the indigenous Dasas or Dasyus in India.

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by sundaram:

What archaeological evidence exists for allah’s existence.

Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all

LOL! ** Allah is the Creator, not a created being , get it? ** . Only the created things and beings can be seen by man and will have walked amongst the people of this planet. The very fact that hindus claimed they had seen rama, krishna or shiva means these are all created beings and not the Creator.

Now in Hinduism, the Creator is called Brahman and Brahman has NO image and only those who worship this unseen Creator can be a Brahmin, in other words one must be Muslim …get it?? That is why in Hinduism the Brahmins today ore an ethnic group, not the followers of Brahma aka Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh)

No how do we know you and all things we can see was created by Allah?

Simple just look at your hands…OPEN YOUR EYES and LOOK carefully , if you are blind, just feel the groves on your palms (on both your hands and foot)

Then ask your mama who put those lines on your hands and why hindus believe their works, futures an fortune is written on them?

If your mama said, I don’t know, see that is why hindus are misguided.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

The facts are as follows: An illiterate went into a cave regularly, conveniently claimed an angelic form that nobody else ever managed to see spoke to him and the what he said is the word of god. Other than the cave & the iliterate person there is no other archeological evidence.

Ibrahim says: Well small brains have small capacities and you just proved it. There is a scripture which anyone can see and feel and read for themselves, it reveals the truth and there are other scriptures kept even by the hindus which confirms that the final prophet will be called “The Praiseworthy” ( Mohammed [pbuh]) and he will be born in Arabia

Ask one of your POPE as to why he has a mosque in his compound, If he felt Islam was a false religion?

I doubt he will entertain you but try anyway.

And any excavations in Makkah that seek to look into any whit of evidence are strictly probibhited.

Ibrahim says: LOL! You seem to have the Makkah problem, don’t you? Why would anyone have the need to excavate when everything in Islam is above ground?

Thus any Islamic archeology to unearth truth about God and his supposed prophet is completely absent.To the credit of hindus, they have tried to put their beliefs to the test of scientific reasoning.

Ibrahim says : did I tell you about the scriptural proof on the shiva lingam? You want me to give you the facts about why the hindus ended up worshiping the lingam with excavations?

The Quran, with no archeological evidence of any kind to prove its a word of this entity you calim is God in the first place, has not remained unchanged.A work of scholarship whose members were deliberately provided with minimal access to Islamic Historic sites concludes the folowing: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html It demolishes myths of the quran having remained unchanged.

Ibrahim says: you mean you got fooled, don’t you? Now let me give you the abc’s

Click here for the photo: http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_1st_quran.htm

The whole copy of Quranic manuscripts unearther at Sanaa’ Yemen are available at UNESCO website http://www.unesco.org/webworld/mdm/visite/sanaa/en/present1.html

Please also see: http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_topkapi.htm http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_manuscripts.htm
See Also, Quran still available, carbon tested and all, written during the times of the Prophet, as early as 7th century. AD http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/Ext/Koran.html
And now, answering all the needs for the history of Holy Quran: http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_history.htm http://www.quran.org.uk/index.html#menu

With regards to a privileged class, its very simple in Islam–its a man. Every religion seems to have some gender prejudice built into it but Christianity,Judaism and Hinduism have been subject to reform on this front. Whatever the scriptures say,these religions have gone on & done what is right in terms of preserving human dignity.

Ibrahim says you mean they altered their teachings according to their whims and fancies , whereas Islamic scripture is the ONLY scripture which remains INTACT and UN-Altered don’t you?

A lot of stark changes having taken place and the course is set only for improvement. But Islam is unadulterated evil on this front.

Ibrahim says: you mean Islam has remained as is and to you it is evil because of your own ignorance and evil hindu nature , don’t you?

There are clear instructions to treat women as appurtanences of men. Purdah, Polygamy, cicumcission, economic dependence on men are explicit licence for sexual abuse to promote a man’s pleasure.

Ibrahim says: hey missing something or are you blind? I quoted authentic hindu verses with references, see if you can quote some to proof your assertions and then observe how you had misconceived what has been conveyed in scriptures.

The mismatch between Men and women in literacy,life expectancy,access to health care,awareness of birth control etc. is the highest in Islamic nations other than Turkey.And the place where the purest form of Islam is practised Saudi Arabia, has more % of women illiterates than any other country w.r.t overall literacy.

Ibrahim says : getting wild are we?

Child sex is explicitly condoned–Sex with a 9-year old girl is a non-bailable offence in most countries with life terms attached on convictions. A typical reason a pedophile tends to give in court once he has molested a child is–I did not realize she was that young. In Islam the reason is “Ayesha was far too sexually developed for a 9 year old”. Find any difference.

Ibrahim says; Ah, so you think, you can muddle what the Prophet taught or practiced in his lifetime in ignorance? Or are trying to slander out of hate?

Here read!

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 6095 Narrated by Buraydah ibn al-Hasib

AbuBakr and Umar asked for Fatimah’s hand in marriage, but Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “She is young.” Then Ali asked for her hand in marriage and he married her to him.
Nasa’i transmitted it.

Ibrahim says: I thought I already gave the reason as to why child marriages had to be conducted in ancient times due to prevailing hindu (deviated) evils.

Let me re quote since you cannot comprehend such matters.

Read!

** “A damsel whose menses begin to appear (while she is living) at her father’s house, before she has been betrothed to a man, has to be considered as a degraded woman: by taking her (without the consent of her kinsmen) a man commits no wrong.” ** – Visnusmrti 24:41.

Ibrahim says: meaning women can be raped wherever and whenever found on the streets IF SHE HAS NOT BEEN BETROTHED, thus it became a necessity to marry off girls, even before they reached their puberty in ancient times .

Now go and find out why in India, child marriages are conducted every year to this very day?

Since you are BLIND, let me reveal what hindus HAVE To practice in Hinduism.

“A thirty-year-old man should marry a twelve-year-old girl who charms his heart, and a man of twenty-four an eight-year-old girl; ** and if duty is threatened, (he should marry) in haste.”** – Manusmrti 9:94.

Ibrahim says: Meaning, if they is an urgent need NO AGE LIMIT, that is why 3 year olds are married in Hinduism every year in India. ** The hindus are so silly they even marry children to dogs. **

By extension, you can molest a child & quote the hadith & I see no reason why you would be punished under Islamic law.

Ibrahim says: You silly man, In Islam a man does not even touch another women that is not legally his wife…get it?
Whereas in Hinduism you can rape any women who has just finished her periods ( as recorded in the hindu scriptures)
Read.

Surely a woman who has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period is the most auspicious of women. ** When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her,** saying: ‘I take away the splendour from you with my virility and splendour.’ And she is sure to become bereft of splendour. If, on the other hand, she accedes to his wish, he should say: ‘I confer splendour on you with my virility and splendour.’ And then they are both sure to become full of splendour. If he wants her to love him, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, and stroke her vagina as he softly recites: ‘From my body you spring – from every inch! Born from my heart, you are my body’s pith! Make her crazy about me, as if she’s been hit with a dart carrying a poisoned tip.’ If he does not want her to become pregnant, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, blow into her mouth and suck back the breath, as he says: ‘I take back the semen from you with my virility and semen.’ And she is sure to become bereft of semen. If, on the other hand, he wants her to become pregnant, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, suck in the breath first, and then blow it back into her mouth, as he says: ‘I deposit the semen in you with my virility and semen.’ And she is sure to become pregnant Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 6:4:4-12.

And by extension Islam apparently encourages early marriage for women. The avg. age of a women in Saudi Arabia(where the Quran is pracrtised as a life) is 17 years. A women in fully formed biologically when she is 21 to take the rigours of sex & she becomes mentally matured to raise a child by 25 years. And with marriage at 17 she can even forget about school leave alone a college.This is proven statistical evidence.

Ibrahim says: A women can marry at any age she is able to consent on her own or as per her parents needs and If she need your permission to do so, please impress me, so that I can reserve a place for you in the asylum.

And folowing the life of the prophet there is no way you can say its wrong to take concubines.

Ibrahim says; hmm and I thought you said they was no archeological evidence so, where did you get your info from?

But if you ask me, concubines were approved in the hindu scriptures for rulers and Brahmin may only marry 4 women.

Here read! Since you seem blind of what Hinduism teaches.

“He** (the king)** should arise in the last watch of the night and, unpolluted and with a concentrated mind, offer an oblation into the fire; then he should honour the Brahmins and enter his fine court-room. He should stay there greeting all his subjects, and then dismiss them; and when he has dismissed all his subjects he should take counsel with his counsellors (advisory cabinet). He should take counsel unobserved, climbing to a private place on the back of a hill or a roof-terrace, or in a wilderness that has no vegetation. A king whose counsel is not known by the common people when they come together will enjoy the entire earth even if he has a poor treasury. ** At the time of taking counsel he should have removed idiots, the mute, blind, or deaf; animals and very old people; women, barbarians, and those who are ill or who lack a part of the body. For those who are despised disclose counsel, and so do animals and, especially, women; therefore he should be cautious among them. ** At noon or midnight, when he has rested and overcome his weariness, he should think, either alone or with those (advisers), about religion, profit, and pleasure, and about attaining them when they are mutually opposed, about giving daughters in marriage and protecting his sons, about sending ambassadors and finishing what has to be done, ** about what is going on in the harem and the movements of his secret agents.”** – Manusmrti 7:145-153. ****

**** Some commentators say that he should expel animals such as dogs and crows, which are inauspicious; others that he should expel parrots and mynahs, talking birds that might expose the counsel.

“When the king has taken counsel about all of this with his counsellors, and when he has exercised and bathed,** he should enter the harem at noon to eat.** There he should eat food over which Vedic verses that dispel poison have been chanted, food that has been well tested by kitchen servants who are like his second self, who cannot be seduced and who know the time (for food). And he should clean all of his articles with waters that destroy poison, and he should always be circumspect about wearing jewels that destroy poison. ** Well-tested women whose clothing and ornaments have been thoroughly cleaned should attentively caress him with fans, water, and incense.** In the same way, he should be careful about his carriage, bed, seat, and food, and about bathing, anointing and adorning his body, and all his ornaments. ** When he has eaten, he should take his pleasure with the women in the harem; and when he has taken his pleasure at the proper time, he should think again about the things he must do.** In full regalia, he should inspect the armed forces again, and all the vehicles, weapons, and ornaments. When he has performed his twilight rituals, he should arm himself, and in the inner chamber he should hear about the movements of his spies and those who report secrets. ** When he has dismissed these people and gone to another inner chamber, he should again enter the harem to eat, surrounded by women.** When he has again eaten something there, his spirits lifted by instrumental music,** he should lie down and then arise at the proper time free from fatigue.** A king should follow this regime when he is healthy; but when he is not well, he may entrust all of this to his retainers.” – Manusmrti 7:216-226.

Ibrahim says: Now check this out, when you have sufficient will power to swallow the truth.

** “Now a Brahmin may take four wives in the direct order of the (four) castes.” ** – Visnusmrti 24:1.

A more explicit degradation of the female self is impossible to achive.And the most number of deaths by willfull bleeding are attributed Islmaic countries from circumcission. The hadith commads the followers to restrict a women’s natural sexual pleasure by scrapping off the labia. In rural Islamic soceities, this is carried out with a house knife for the fear of invoking god’s wrath if its not done.

Ibrahim says: kindly quote the hadiths with full references so that we can see how credible you are?

The equivalent to man should be cutting off the inner portion of his penis(not the outer skin)–the biological equivalent of the labia for simulating sexual pleasure. Is that done???So its simple–Men are the priveleged class.

Ibrahim says : LOL, are you sick? I mean how does one cut off his inner part of the penis?

Any kind of criticism for objective reform is stifled with death threats.

Ibrahim says: Ok let me threaten you, !@$%^&*

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

a little bit more , just for you +_)(*&^ , since that is what you want to believe. Happy? LOL!

Do read Salman Rushdie’s satanic verses. I was convinced this guy was pure genius after “Midnight Children” but the chapter “Mahound” in Satanic Verses was a beauty. He begins the chapter by listing the vices of the evil head of a so-called pagan religion–number of wives & concubines, Endless Sermonizing without any prodcutive work, sex with young kids for increasing virality, selling his concept of god by forming partneships with rivals, tactical retreats, targetting members of a particular community for death etc. When the chapter ends Mohound his rival in promoting another religion had factually done all this with aplomb. The comparison was the best demolishion of Mohammad’s character. I guess the ayatollah was too shrewd to relaize it & simply banned it.

Ibrahim says: You mean join the lunatic band wagon and make a fool of yourself, just as you have vividly managed to do in this post?

Worse still any road to reform is blocked as being against the book. Hence if Islam as practised in Saudi Arabia & by the Taliban(which is most authentic) is practised women are forever destined for sexual slavery to a man.Afterall christianity accepts today that the Earth goes around the sun while the bible says otherwise but it has done nothing to dimish the belief of their followers. Reform comes from strong belief & a sense of maturity that god means more than following just a book.

Ibrahim says: why are you crying?? get a hold of yourself man, and learn the scriptures, not what others had to say but what it says.

As regards to hindu scriptures, the mostly widely read is not the vedas or the manusmriti, its the Gita & the commentaties/recitations of the various schools of hindu thought by Ramanujacharyar, Adi Shankara, the alwars, the nayanmars and a host of other saints.

Ibrahim says: keep deluding yourself and you may end up a deluded person. BTW why don’t you show us the statistics as to what hindus read?

Infact most everyday hindu rituals are tracable to scriptures by these saints. Even accpeting that the scriptures give an elevated position to the brahmin here are the other facts according to it.

Ibrahim says : are you denying that Brahmins are not racists and India does not have a caste problem?

1.A Brahmin should beg for a living(Hithoupanishad).

Ibrahim says: Quote full verse with exact references so that I can verify its credibility.

2.A Brahmin is not categorized by birth but by learning(Gita).

Ibrahim says: quote full verse with references so that I can verify its credibility.

3.A Brahmin with his entire family should be a teacher dedicated to the learning of his students(Sage Garga in Mahabaratha on the gurukul system) & expect nothing but food,c.lothing & shelter from the child’s guardians.

Ibrahim says: form where you got this? Don’t tell me you hatched it or someone told you so? If from hindu scripture quote full verse with references.

The first three aspects are directly violated by the caste system practised.

Ibrahim says who violated it and why it was allowed in Hinduism, if hindu scriptures does not allow such things ???

and It was at best an abberation of what hinduism preached.

Ibrahim says: what was Hinduism preaching?? Quote full verse with reference

Even if you consider the varna system, there are 3 equivalent castes–Brahmin,Kshatriya & Vaishya. They for 80% of the hindu populace.

Ibrahim says: huh! You mean all those dalits who converted to Islam and Buddhism were fake Hindus. And they were only 20 % and what percentage was the rest ?? …give credible, verifiable statistics.

But works like the adwaitha and vishistadwaitha explicity rejected the varna system-- they argued its contary to the will of god. Infact a high brahmin caste today,the Iyengars are a sect of people designated from the so called lower castes as Brahmins as Ramanujacharyar.

Ibrahim says: you mean they decided to call themselves Brahmins even though No hindu can be a Brahmin unless he worships the supreme Creator Allah ( aka Brahman in Hinduism) which No hindu does in this day an time.

** Sorry you were a lot of fun, and I had some time to waste, but do not expect me to waste time on you, if you cannot substantiate your claims.**

Regards
Ibrahim

** Reduce your follies and strengthen your argument. Anger makes you mad why not be sensible? **

[sundaram]

Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all

LOL! Allah is the Creator, not a created being , get it? . Only the created things and beings can be seen by man and will have walked amongst the people of this planet. The very fact that hindus claimed they had seen rama, krishna or shiva means these are all created beings and not the Creator.

If being NOT seen is the only criteria for being a creator, then our creator is Ingird(the unseen but strongly suspected nth moon of pluto). Hinduism belives in the manifestation of God as man. Rama, Krishna & Shiva were the manifestations of the supreme self.
Now in Hinduism, the Creator is called Brahman and Brahman has NO image and only those who worship this unseen Creator can be a Brahmin, in other words one must be Muslim …get it?? That is why in Hinduism the Brahmins today ore an ethnic group, not the followers of Brahma aka Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh)

SUNDARAM>>>Nope the ultimate creator is not BRAHMAN but a phonetically similar(maybe that’s what confused you) PARA BRAHMAM. Its the ultimate truth so abstract that none has understood it. There are cupious references to it on the gita which Eistien eulogises. Everything else is a descendent of it & all else leads to it. A beautiful concept endlessly debated by philosophers & thinkers alike. For the best recent works search for essays by Dr.Radhakrishan(former India President) on the web(use Dr. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan as the search string).

No how do we know you and all things we can see was created by Allah?

SUNDARAM>>>If you want something sceitific, evolution-simply the best theory we have. Its been one single thought so beautifully abstract but so real–why else do you thin you have gotten to cloning humans today. We have evolved from single cellular organisms over trillions of years. Incidentally, the quran says we were created from clots of blood, an absolute fallacy proved by evolution.Blood was a middle stage in the evolution of multi cellular organism–it goes roughly as a single cell, strong cell membrane, live cell reproduction, bone strucure for cell support, joints for bone bending, muscles for bone motion, tissues for subsisting muscles,blood for transport, brain,sense organs,skin and finally hair.Any primary school textbook on evolution will have this.

SUNDARAM>>>If you want a religious explanation,it flows from the Para Brahmam according to hinduim. The gita says everything flows from it–the smallest & the biggest entity. The concept of the smallest is the closest that comes to a single cell–maybe the reason why Einstien found it very interesting in the first place.

Simple just look at your hands…OPEN YOUR EYES and LOOK carefully , if you are blind, just feel the groves on your palms (on both your hands and foot)

Then ask your mama who put those lines on your hands and why hindus believe their works, futures an fortune is written on them?

If your mama said, I don’t know, see that is why hindus are misguided.

SUNDARAM>>>Dogma that goes with any religion. Eg in Islam: the night of power in Ramzan, stoning pillars during the haj in the belief you are stoning the devil(Allah???),standing in the scorching sun in the name of enacting the day of judgement, killing happless sheep in millions to commerate what some twit did to his son a zillion years back(why not sacrifice your own son.Very inconvenient insn’t it) etc.

My mama would think I was mad if i did any of this.

quote:

The facts are as follows: An illiterate went into a cave regularly, conveniently claimed an angelic form that nobody else ever managed to see spoke to him and the what he said is the word of god. Other than the cave & the iliterate person there is no other archeological evidence.

Ibrahim says: Well small brains have small capacities and you just proved it. There is a scripture which anyone can see and feel and read for themselves, it reveals the truth and there are other scriptures kept even by the hindus which confirms that the final prophet will be called “The Praiseworthy” ( Mohammed [pbuh]) and he will be born in Arabia

Ask one of your POPE as to why he has a mosque in his compound, If he felt Islam was a false religion?

I doubt he will entertain you but try anyway.

SUNDARAM>>Lets not get into a discussion of Intellect. Being a Rushdie/Naipaul fan you would realize I wouldn’t tolerate pompous twits gladly.Again just sweeping generalizations that no neutral guy would accept & would easily reject as being without any basis.

The mosque in Kanchi shows the magnanimity of the hindu mindset, the beautiful concept of sanathana dharma so unique to it. Accept all. No divison into Kufrs and ****.

quote:

And any excavations in Makkah that seek to look into any whit of evidence are strictly probibhited.

Ibrahim says: LOL! You seem to have the Makkah problem, don’t you? Why would anyone have the need to excavate when everything in Islam is above ground?

SUNDARAM>>>First up,don’t laugh too much for no reason. It shows an imbelicity of mind and weakness of your character. You wouldn’t see Newton or Einstein Laughing for no reason, would you. The end result were two poles apart–Relativity & Justifying the Quran.Again a redundant mindset that seeks to hide all facts. What’s above ground shoud stand the test of experiments. Just as hindusim & chirstianity showed it.Failed in some cases but faith continues to burn bright as ever.

quote:

Thus any Islamic archeology to unearth truth about God and his supposed prophet is completely absent.To the credit of hindus, they have tried to put their beliefs to the test of scientific reasoning.

Ibrahim says : did I tell you about the scriptural proof on the shiva lingam? You want me to give you the facts about why the hindus ended up worshiping the lingam with excavations?

SUNDARAM>>>Lets hear it. Its one facet I am too familiar about being intersted in the Adwaitha of Adi Shankara and its a nice chance me to call your bluff with reagard to the references.

quote:

The Quran, with no archeological evidence of any kind to prove its a word of this entity you calim is God in the first place, has not remained unchanged.A work of scholarship whose members were deliberately provided with minimal access to Islamic Historic sites concludes the folowing: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html It demolishes myths of the quran having remained unchanged.

Ibrahim says: you mean you got fooled, don’t you? Now let me give you the abc’s

Click here for the photo: http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_1st_quran.htm

The whole copy of Quranic manuscripts unearther at Sanaa’ Yemen are available at UNESCO website http://www.unesco.org/webworld/mdm/visite/sanaa/en/present1.html

Please also see: http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_topkapi.htm http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_manuscripts.htm
See Also, Quran still available, carbon tested and all, written during the times of the Prophet, as early as 7th century. AD http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/Ext/Koran.html
And now, answering all the needs for the history of Holy Quran: http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_history.htm http://www.quran.org.uk/index.html#menu

SUNDARAM>>>Load of crap from sites colored by belief. My argument is simple. In one simple experiment these folks have come out with differences between the supposed quran you follow and the ones on al-Quds. Instead of crap based on belief why don’t you counter publish proving they are the same. That’s a scientific effort and that’s the reason you need quality research/archeology in Makkah & medina.I would like to see references in publications like sceince and nature. I publish in these & let me tell you a carbon dating that’s 13 centuries old for an entire book will get you a publication hands down and the sceitific community itself would be abuzz with it. The fact is there is nothing of that ****. Things exits at best in parts and by every account the Quran was passed down by the word of mouth and scattered references. I would back thses folks to the hilt when they say nothing called the quran existed for 59 after Mohammad’s death. Are they conpiring ?? Nope. Get a copy of the theis from them & try to counter prove by better experiments. They would have used not such archaic techniques as carbon dating but such cool ones as SIMS & Spectroscopy to predict age of sample with an accuracy of hours . Science my dear, you simply cant’ cheat. Crap about “proof” to some brainwashed twit in your madrasa not to a EE Ph.D.

quote:

With regards to a privileged class, its very simple in Islam–its a man. Every religion seems to have some gender prejudice built into it but Christianity,Judaism and Hinduism have been subject to reform on this front. Whatever the scriptures say,these religions have gone on & done what is right in terms of preserving human dignity.

Ibrahim says you mean they altered their teachings according to their whims and fancies , whereas Islamic scripture is the ONLY scripture which remains INTACT and UN-Altered don’t you?

SUNDARAM>>Intact with all depravity, in the fear that any change would mean the religion collapses like a pack of cards if questioned. A book props up Omni potent god. Is that credit or shame. Credit goes to hindusim(beautiful reformist thought without undermining god),Christianity(protestant church to rennaisace,what a spectacular journey)and Judaism(Strict Orthodoxy with every kind of modernity) & of course buddhism(an Indian religion) for preaching no dogma in the first place.

A lot of stark changes having taken place and the course is set only for improvement. But Islam is unadulterated evil on this front.

Ibrahim says: you mean Islam has remained as is and to you it is evil because of your own ignorance and evil hindu nature , don’t you?

“evil” hindu nature has gound effective reform while the insecure followers still live with scrapping clits in the belief its the word of god.

quote:

There are clear instructions to treat women as appurtanences of men. Purdah, Polygamy, cicumcission, economic dependence on men are explicit licence for sexual abuse to promote a man’s pleasure.

Ibrahim says: hey missing something or are you blind? I quoted authentic hindu verses with references, see if you can quote some to proof your assertions and then observe how you had misconceived what has been conveyed in scriptures.

Don’t act smart. Which of it does not exist my dear. Is purdah followed without being stated in the quran or is circumssion not in vouge. Is polygamy disallowed??What are you trying here??? I can disgrace you but do you want to redeem yourself by not perpetuating the lie.
quote:

The mismatch between Men and women in literacy,life expectancy,access to health care,awareness of birth control etc. is the highest in Islamic nations other than Turkey.And the place where the purest form of Islam is practised Saudi Arabia, has more % of women illiterates than any other country w.r.t overall literacy.

Ibrahim says : getting wild are we?

SUNDARAM>>> Nope goto www.countrywatch.com Click on a third world country. Compare hard facts for each of these paramets for countries like India & China to Pakistan,Saudi Arabia or any of the Islamic countries other than Turkey,Malaysia & Indonesia (countries whose poplace practice the mildest stain of Islam. No conincidence obviously)for a country of any significant size what I said would be true. Plese do get back if you find othewise. Beauty of hinduism. Lot of emphaisis on learning and proof of concepts.

quote:

Child sex is explicitly condoned–Sex with a 9-year old girl is a non-bailable offence in most countries with life terms attached on convictions. A typical reason a pedophile tends to give in court once he has molested a child is–I did not realize she was that young. In Islam the reason is “Ayesha was far too sexually developed for a 9 year old”. Find any difference.

Ibrahim says; Ah, so you think, you can muddle what the Prophet taught or practiced in his lifetime in ignorance? Or are trying to slander out of hate?

Here read!

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 6095 Narrated by Buraydah ibn al-Hasib

AbuBakr and Umar asked for Fatimah’s hand in marriage, but Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “She is young.” Then Ali asked for her hand in marriage and he married her to him.
Nasa’i transmitted it.

SUNDARAM>>>You are sick man.for example Slavery was legal across the globe till the last century. Does it mean it can be condoned .Its a foible of man. Now god is above all foible. If he indeed did speak to his messenger I don’t think one of the instructions would be do marry a kid and penetrate her when she is nine. He did marry Ayesha when she was 7-years old and penetarted her when she was 9-years. I haven;t found a single muslim try to deny it but only justify it.If somebody did ask you to peneterate a nine year old would you go ahead & do it because the kid somehow wanted it or her dad asked you to.You mostly definiety would if you are a pervert.
You have nowhere to hide my dear. This single perversion is his character is monstrous that to even consider Islam as a cult like David Koreshes’s is a sin.

DO YOU ACTUALLY condone this depravity. My hands trmeble as I type this.I hope my kid never ever has to look at you in his life.

Ibrahim says: I thought I already gave the reason as to why child marriages had to be conducted in ancient times due to prevailing hindu (deviated) evils.

Its a freaking social anomaloy which reform in religion has to address. However it has crept into any religion,.F**k it. I don’t want to see any evidence of it.

Let me re quote since you cannot comprehend such matters.

Read!

“A damsel whose menses begin to appear (while she is living) at her father’s house, before she has been betrothed to a man, has to be considered as a degraded woman: by taking her (without the consent of her kinsmen) a man commits no wrong.” – Visnusmrti 24:41.

Ibrahim says: meaning women can be raped wherever and whenever found on the streets IF SHE HAS NOT BEEN BETROTHED, thus it became a necessity to marry off girls, even before they reached their puberty in ancient times .
Now go and find out why in India, child marriages are conducted every year to this very day? Ibrahim says: Meaning, if they is an urgent need NO AGE LIMIT, that is why 3 year olds are married in Hinduism every year in India

SUNDARAM>>>A extreme miniscule minority in India exclusively confined to Rajasthan among a very backward tribe called the gujjars still marry children.The number is in thousands at best. Social reformists and all the shankaracharyars moved heaven & earth in resisting it. The previous seer of Kanchi camped at one the places where it was most prevelant convincing the masses against it.And slowly but surely people are coming out it. Agian reform and good flow of ideas with a positive contribution from religion at its best. The same goes with your rape of a women who has competed her mensural period. As with Islam child marriages are condoned and freaking more prevelant in the land of the pure like Saudi Arabia. About marrying to dogs, try something different. How about a marring a dinosour.

Hindusim first addressed the depravities in the manusmriti through reform by Adi Shankara, his contemporaries. You will find in the Adwaitha that Shankara explicitly moves away from personal relationships. He talk about an individuals relationship with god and follow noble leads like the Ramayana in living their lives as Grihatas. If the follower takes a bakthi marg he speaks pf ways to avoid women in search of god. Ramanujacharyar & more of his kind elevated it to the next plane. In short reject it.

SUNDARA>>>Why would you ever need rape in Islam. 4 allowed wives + as many concubines + as many kids for sex + as many divorces to satisfy any kind of endless sexual hunger, why in the god damm world would you need rape. Just marry & freaking enjoy until your genitals drop. There can be no f******g moral justification to polygamy than the tendency of a demagouge to satisfy the endless sexual lust of his followers.

Since you are BLIND, let me reveal what hindus HAVE To practice in Hinduism.

“A thirty-year-old man should marry a twelve-year-old girl who charms his heart, and a man of twenty-four an eight-year-old girl; and if duty is threatened, (he should marry) in haste.” – Manusmrti 9:94.

ARVID>>>Same a above.Reject if it does not conform to a Reformist schools. Other than serving as hate site fodder this means nothing else to any hindu. Howeevr the Bhaja Govindam of Shankara, the Vishnu Sahasranaman of the Alwars, the Rudram of the Nayanmars is recited by every parctising hindu. Infact every hindu would know short & sweet hyms with which he beesseches the lord Almighty. No depravity like killing kufrs in these. Beautiful stuff in an elevating language(sanskrit,tamil,hindi,telugu I know of) that praise the lord for his bounty. Polygamy is ZILCH today in hidu society and you spend time in prison if you are married to two females simultaneously.

. The hindus are so silly they even marry children to dogs.

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By extension, you can molest a child & quote the hadith & I see no reason why you would be punished under Islamic law.

Ibrahim says: You silly man, In Islam a man does not even touch another women that is not legally his wife…get it?
Whereas in Hinduism you can rape any women who has just finished her periods ( as recorded in the hindu scriptures)
Read.

Surely a woman who has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period is the most auspicious of women. When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her, saying: ‘I take away the splendour from you with my virility and splendour.’ And she is sure to become bereft of splendour. If, on the other hand, she accedes to his wish, he should say: ‘I confer splendour on you with my virility and splendour.’ And then they are both sure to become full of splendour. If he wants her to love him, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, and stroke her vagina as he softly recites: ‘From my body you spring – from every inch! Born from my heart, you are my body’s pith! Make her crazy about me, as if she’s been hit with a dart carrying a poisoned tip.’ If he does not want her to become pregnant, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, blow into her mouth and suck back the breath, as he says: ‘I take back the semen from you with my virility and semen.’ And she is sure to become bereft of semen. If, on the other hand, he wants her to become pregnant, he should slip his penis into her, press his mouth against hers, suck in the breath first, and then blow it back into her mouth, as he says: ‘I deposit the semen in you with my virility and semen.’ And she is sure to become pregnant Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 6:4:4-12.

SUNDARAM?>>Cut out the silly man crap. You can’t take rushdie,don’t try any of his fans.Same reason as above. You are still freaking convenietly sidestepping the sickest possible question.why the heck would you touch another woman illegaly.Marry “N^2” of then and rape legally.

DO YOU CONDONE THE SICK PRACTISE OF YOUR PROPHET IN PENETRATING A 9-YEAR OLD.

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And by extension Islam apparently encourages early marriage for women. The avg. age of a women in Saudi Arabia(where the Quran is pracrtised as a life) is 17 years. A women in fully formed biologically when she is 21 to take the rigours of sex & she becomes mentally matured to raise a child by 25 years. And with marriage at 17 she can even forget about school leave alone a college.This is proven statistical evidence.

Ibrahim says: A women can marry at any age she is able to consent on her own or as per her parents needs and If she need your permission to do so, please impress me, so that I can reserve a place for you in the asylum.

SUNDARAM>>>Read www.arabnews.com archives on Islam. It endlessly gloriofies the virtues of early marriage. If a poor female just 17 years has been brainwahed into this state why wouldn’t she consent. Its the responsibility of religious leaders to preach otherwise --Don’t marry early. Inculcate a sense of maturiy and tell them there is no compulsion by religion to marry ealry. That’s what every other religion has done.

SUNDARAM>>>As regards to impressing you,I wouldn’t like to be on the same wavelength as guy who is ambivalent about chid rape. It would freak me out. I should actively aim to be your compliment in every sense. Ride out on your high pink piglet out of the gutter.

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And folowing the life of the prophet there is no way you can say its wrong to take concubines.

Ibrahim says; hmm and I thought you said they was no archeological evidence so, where did you get your info from?

SUNDARAM>>>I usually trust the atheists to be most neutral on reporting religious facts. They have no axe to grind against any religion do they??? They simply say the bitter truth as in your scriptures.

Go check this out: http://www.atheists.org/Islam/Mohammed.html

its a threadbare dissection & a neutral opinion on Mohammad. Here are the extract:

Mohammed began to place himself on the level with crowned heads of nations and in 628 had a seal made with the inscription on it: “Mohammed the messenger of God.” As the governor of Medina he became tyrannical and cruel. At one point he sacrificed one hundred camels to emphasize a preachment he made from the back of a camel. In one disagreement with Jews he had six hundred men of one tribe put to death and all of the women sold as slaves. He used private assassination. He added many wives to his family and concubines. He married women whom he had never even seen and some who were already married. To effectuate this he obtained from god a special law entitling him to exceed the usual number of wibes. He finally coveted Zaynab, the wife of his adopted son Zaid. Zaid obligingly divorced her but when the young woman demanded a revelation to sanction the union, this was producted by Mohammed and the obliging Gabriel

But if you ask me, concubines were approved in the hindu scriptures for rulers and Brahmin may only marry 4 women.

SUNDARAM>>>Same as above. Nothing of that kind in hinduism today, the faith burns brigter than ever and we are getting rid of more dogma. The Ramayana with the character of Lord Ram as being commited to one female is what I learnt in school as an ideal to follow. Another woman in a hindu man’s life is virtually non-existent. Its the norm in Islam.

Here read! Since you seem blind of what Hinduism teaches.

“He (the king) should arise in the last watch of the night and, unpolluted and with a concentrated mind, offer an oblation into the fire; then he should honour the Brahmins and enter his fine court-room. He should stay there greeting all his subjects, and then dismiss them; and when he has dismissed all his subjects he should take counsel with his counsellors (advisory cabinet). He should take counsel unobserved, climbing to a private place on the back of a hill or a roof-terrace, or in a wilderness that has no vegetation. A king whose counsel is not known by the common people when they come together will enjoy the entire earth even if he has a poor treasury. At the time of taking counsel he should have removed idiots, the mute, blind, or deaf; animals and very old people; women, barbarians, and those who are ill or who lack a part of the body. For those who are despised disclose counsel, and so do animals and, especially, women; therefore he should be cautious among them. At noon or midnight, when he has rested and overcome his weariness, he should think, either alone or with those (advisers), about religion, profit, and pleasure, and about attaining them when they are mutually opposed, about giving daughters in marriage and protecting his sons, about sending ambassadors and finishing what has to be done, about what is going on in the harem and the movements of his secret agents.” – Manusmrti 7:145-153. ****

**** Some commentators say that he should expel animals such as dogs and crows, which are inauspicious; others that he should expel parrots and mynahs, talking birds that might expose the counsel.

“When the king has taken counsel about all of this with his counsellors, and when he has exercised and bathed, he should enter the harem at noon to eat. There he should eat food over which Vedic verses that dispel poison have been chanted, food that has been well tested by kitchen servants who are like his second self, who cannot be seduced and who know the time (for food). And he should clean all of his articles with waters that destroy poison, and he should always be circumspect about wearing jewels that destroy poison. Well-tested women whose clothing and ornaments have been thoroughly cleaned should attentively caress him with fans, water, and incense. In the same way, he should be careful about his carriage, bed, seat, and food, and about bathing, anointing and adorning his body, and all his ornaments. When he has eaten, he should take his pleasure with the women in the harem; and when he has taken his pleasure at the proper time, he should think again about the things he must do. In full regalia, he should inspect the armed forces again, and all the vehicles, weapons, and ornaments. When he has performed his twilight rituals, he should arm himself, and in the inner chamber he should hear about the movements of his spies and those who report secrets. When he has dismissed these people and gone to another inner chamber, he should again enter the harem to eat, surrounded by women. When he has again eaten something there, his spirits lifted by instrumental music, he should lie down and then arise at the proper time free from fatigue. A king should follow this regime when he is healthy; but when he is not well, he may entrust all of this to his retainers.” – Manusmrti 7:216-226.

Ibrahim says: Now check this out, when you have sufficient will power to swallow the truth.

“Now a Brahmin may take four wives in the direct order of the (four) castes.” – Visnusmrti 24:1.

SUNDARAM>>>>>Wasting time. I don’t know a single hym in any of these.what I know is the gita and a host of other wondeful aspects. To me as a devount hindu this does not matter. What matter is the grace of my lord almighty.

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A more explicit degradation of the female self is impossible to achive.And the most number of deaths by willfull bleeding are attributed Islmaic countries from circumcission. The hadith commads the followers to restrict a women’s natural sexual pleasure by scrapping off the labia. In rural Islamic soceities, this is carried out with a house knife for the fear of invoking god’s wrath if its not done.

Ibrahim says: kindly quote the hadiths with full references so that we can see how credible you are?

SUNDARAM>>>I’ll give you a chance to correct the lie. Do you in alll seriousness as a muslim say that cirumcsission in Islam is not adviced. I can come up with a refernce in a minute but you would look like a sad liar. Redeem yourself before I disgrace you as a liar.

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The equivalent to man should be cutting off the inner portion of his penis(not the outer skin)–the biological equivalent of the labia for simulating sexual pleasure. Is that done???So its simple–Men are the priveleged class.

Ibrahim says : LOL, are you sick? I mean how does one cut off his inner part of the penis?

SUNDARAM>>>I simply stated the biological equivalent of the labia for a male sex organ for simulating sexual pleasure. You need a sex education. Thats biology.Listen, there are 2 excitable female organs to maximize sexual pleasure–the labia and the inner clitoris. The male organ in excited by rubbing the penis. Your sexual instincts are not aroused by rubbing the skin in the tip of your penis unless you are a lizard.If to minimize sexual urge you should cut off the the labia in a female then what should you cut off in a male. You have exposed your ignorance and lack of sex education by laughing. Get a good sex education. The quran is a depraved source for it.
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Any kind of criticism for objective reform is stifled with death threats.

Ibrahim says: Ok let me threaten you, !@$%^&* a little bit more , just for you +_)(*&^ , since that is what you want to believe. Happy? LOL!

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Do read Salman Rushdie’s satanic verses. I was convinced this guy was pure genius after “Midnight Children” but the chapter “Mahound” in Satanic Verses was a beauty. He begins the chapter by listing the vices of the evil head of a so-called pagan religion–number of wives & concubines, Endless Sermonizing without any prodcutive work, sex with young kids for increasing virality, selling his concept of god by forming partneships with rivals, tactical retreats, targetting members of a particular community for death etc. When the chapter ends Mohound his rival in promoting another religion had factually done all this with aplomb. The comparison was the best demolishion of Mohammad’s character. I guess the ayatollah was too shrewd to relaize it & simply banned it.

Ibrahim says: You mean join the lunatic band wagon and make a fool of yourself, just as you have vividly managed to do in this post?

SUNDARAM>>>A booker prize winner and possibly the most gifted of english writers is a lunatic band. Mullah Omar is the role model for the masses 'cos he follwed the quran.Okay what next. Anabella wong for sextual chastity.He simply demolished what you did not want to see about Muhammad. Why blame him. Blame Muhammad.Do read it. Its a journey is sarcasm & fine prose.

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Worse still any road to reform is blocked as being against the book. Hence if Islam as practised in Saudi Arabia & by the Taliban(which is most authentic) is practised women are forever destined for sexual slavery to a man.Afterall christianity accepts today that the Earth goes around the sun while the bible says otherwise but it has done nothing to dimish the belief of their followers. Reform comes from strong belief & a sense of maturity that god means more than following just a book.

Ibrahim says: why are you crying?? get a hold of yourself man, and learn the scriptures, not what others had to say but what it says.

SUNDARAM>>>As I told you I don’t tolerate twits galdy. I am just making an exception for you.

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As regards to hindu scriptures, the mostly widely read is not the vedas or the manusmriti, its the Gita & the commentaties/recitations of the various schools of hindu thought by Ramanujacharyar, Adi Shankara, the alwars, the nayanmars and a host of other saints.

Ibrahim says: keep deluding yourself and you may end up a deluded person. BTW why don’t you show us the statistics as to what hindus read?

SUNDARAM>>>Sure poll any hindu on this messgae board as to what he knows about hinduism. If they say its the manusmiriti I’ll take your point. Having lived a hindu I can say it with confidence thay the list quoted above are the ones that each hindu would know.
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Infact most everyday hindu rituals are tracable to scriptures by these saints. Even accpeting that the scriptures give an elevated position to the brahmin here are the other facts according to it.

Ibrahim says : are you denying that Brahmins are not racists and India does not have a caste problem?

Yes its has. But reform is omni present. the concept of caste is dilueted in a big way over the last 50 years and mark my words it won’t exit in any meaningfull form over the next few decades. With growing literacy & education that is one edifice that should crumble.

And I don’t expect you to know this but have you atleast heard of the dravidian movement by periyar???

But als,females are forever destined to being sex slaves.

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1.A Brahmin should beg for a living(Hithoupanishad).

Ibrahim says: Quote full verse with exact references so that I can verify its credibility.

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2.A Brahmin is not categorized by birth but by learning(Gita).

Ibrahim says: quote full verse with references so that I can verify its credibility.

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3.A Brahmin with his entire family should be a teacher dedicated to the learning of his students(Sage Garga in Mahabaratha on the gurukul system) & expect nothing but food,c.lothing & shelter from the child’s guardians.

Ibrahim says: form where you got this? Don’t tell me you hatched it or someone told you so? If from hindu scripture quote full verse with references.

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The first three aspects are directly violated by the caste system practised.

I cannot find refernces on the web my sources are the following

1.Cho Ramaswamy’s essay’s in Tamil on the upanishads and how they have changed.
2.C.Rajagopalchari’s epic volumes on the gita,mahabaratha & ramayana.

Ibrahim says who violated it and why it was allowed in Hinduism, if hindu scriptures does not allow such things ???

SUNDARAM>>>Same as before.

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and It was at best an abberation of what hinduism preached.

Ibrahim says: what was Hinduism preaching?? Quote full verse with reference

SUNDARAM>>>Short & Sweet. Sanathana dharma, Accept all. reject none and believe in the god almghty’s power to stand by you in need. The reason why you have hindus thronging temples.Simple,short & sweet.

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Even if you consider the varna system, there are 3 equivalent castes–Brahmin,Kshatriya & Vaishya. They for 80% of the hindu populace.

Ibrahim says: huh! You mean all those dalits who converted to Islam and Buddhism were fake Hindus. And they were only 20 % and what percentage was the rest ?? …give credible, verifiable statistics.

SUNDARAM>>>The brahmins weren’t the only highest caste. Don’t read between the lines too much. The dalits are the rest based on the varna system.Again reject it.When we accept muslims who murder us we shouldn’t flich from embracing then.The dalits are being brought into the mainstream and things on this end will change.

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But works like the adwaitha and vishistadwaitha explicity rejected the varna system-- they argued its contary to the will of god. Infact a high brahmin caste today,the Iyengars are a sect of people designated from the so called lower castes as Brahmins as Ramanujacharyar.

Ibrahim says: you mean they decided to call themselves Brahmins even though No hindu can be a Brahmin unless he worships the supreme Creator Allah ( aka Brahman in Hinduism) which No hindu does in this day an time.

SUNDARAM>>>I hope you understand this.Get some sleep. These are reasons why I am short tempered with twits.

SUNDARAM>>>And what deathly silence on Mohammad’s call to exterminate Jews. Proof??? didn’t you see the exponent of Islam Bin Laden tirelsssly repeat if in his war against america & Israel. Who but this depraved element can be finest authority on the darker side of the quran. Do you subscribe to exterminating jews.Mohammad said so.

Sorry you were a lot of fun, and I had some time to waste, but do not expect me to waste time on you, if you cannot substantiate your claims.

SUNDARAM>> As Rushdie said “The problem with self-declared intellectual nitwits is their pompous empty ego”. He had to run for his life from one such ayatollah.Thankfully I am not in that kind of deep peril.
I rest my case.

Like Diana reached out to the AIDS infected kid,let me reach out to you.no hard feelings. Lets go back to a paradigm we followed as kids. Respect all religions for they preach love. Its sweet and most believable.

cheers
Sundaram

** Reduce your follies and strengthen your argument. Anger makes you mad why not be sensible? **

[This message has been edited by sundaram (edited March 13, 2002).]

[Indian_Muslim_1]

** Anybody interested in seeing the dirty, evil kind of Hindus who love to burn Muslims alive - Here is Sundaram. If you ever wondered how people could be so vicious beyond bounds, well then look at Sundaram and try figuring out what it should be like in India. **

[kumarakn]

Another thread gone to waste by some seriously constipated hate-spewers.

Mods: How come you guys run with scissors with other posts?

Sundaram: This forum has saner members with whom you can spend time!

[sundaram]

Anybody interested in seeing the dirty, evil kind of Hindus who love to burn Muslims alive - Here is Sundaram. If you ever wondered how people could be so vicious beyond bounds, well then look at Sundaram and try figuring out what it should be like in India

What a twisted mind you have. You simply begin by throwing muck on people who tried reasoning with you in the first place, mock people, continue your vile slander against hindusim with a few of your colleagues and when your bluff is conclusively called,blame me uh...

GO back & see who started this crap. By lying you simply are compunding your folly.