^ I don't think the statement ''Someone who is smart can criticise the top level leadership of the army but you see vile comments aimed at normal Pak Army soliders, even those who have died in the past. '' means anyone is called a traitor. And even in Western countries calling the sacrifices of dead soldiers will get massive amounts of criticism and frankly rightly so. All of us are armchair critics and have no idea what it would take for someone to consider their own life as secondary to serving their country. Criticising the generals i.e. Musharraf, or Kiyani or Raheel etc is vastly different than also including the shaheeds in that criticism. Not making that massive distinction is IMO opening anyone up for criticism. ** Jawans esp in Indo Pak border have to endure terrible conditions. To the best of my knowledge the officer class does not have to face the same conditions on a day to day basis. The higher up ones rank, more the perks, less the discomfort. You have correctly made the distinction between the foot soldier and the Generals. And most definitely shaheeds shoukd never be dishonered.
The self proclaimed Patriots who are mainly from the Right (I am not saying you - I know you to be quite fair -)in most countries conflate criticism of the outcomes of a war with disrespecting the Jawans and the shaheeds. Those who criticize the Iraq war are labeled unpatriotic by the chicken hawks in the Right. In fact, anti war peaceniks are labeled as such. In my opinion the true patriots are those who detest wars and don't want to send other people children to die. Not the war mongers who put a lapel pin of their national flag to flout their patriotism.
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As for the thread, I think naturally everyone loves their country in their own way and sometimes people will naturally get riled up. Especially when it comes to India. I don't think anyone is being genuinely racist against Indians when they say that India is tilting towards extremism, which it is. However generally nowdays, there is an extreme right and extreme left emerging in every country with no in between.
Will try to reply with bold format within your text. Not sure it will come through - doing for 1st tims. So here we go.
Fact - India in last 10 years had twice escalated the force on border, and moved its army there. They recently held a full blown military drill there. Repeated violation of LoC and killing of innocent civilians even on Eid and Pakistan independence day. Indian Army chief only recently told all troops to call off their holidays and be prepared for 'short term technical war' against Pakistan.
The war mongering hysteria largely exist on Indian side, and it is perfectly evidenced by the policies of their ruling elite, electoral rhetoric, military practices, and the media spin. The border situation and causalities never got that bad even we had a military dictator in Pakistan. Indians need to take the blame for electing a violent Hindu extremist Pakistan hating party which is hugely responsible for fanning the warmongering hysteria in their country, and in the region.
All Pakistanis must be warmongers, right wingers, and self proclaimed patriots (see how quick you are to judge someone's patriotism) because they show full support to Zarb e Azb - a war basically?
PS: Pakistan has one of the highest soldier to officer casualty ratio.
Those who label people who like to fight a case for their country as 'right winger' 'self proclaimed patriots' or 'warmongers' are just as pathetic as those who are quick to label others as 'traitors' 'self haters' or whatever. Either don't complain about the labels or stop pulling a pseudo moral high ground because this distributing of labels is really and truly a two way street.
The Officer class, especially the Generals are most always to the right. They vote right, they favor war as a decaukt option and not as a last resort.
Other folks who favor wars and are cheerleaders are those who have gone out of their way to avoid it when they had to serve. Because they can't take the heat. But this just brings out their inner hawkishness. And there ain't a war they don't like. And to them, it is ALWAYS the other side that commits atrocities. And they rile up the masses and stoke the flames.
The foot soldiers are mostly in their job to support their family. They would prefer there is peace. Because their life is on the line every day. But they don't get to make policy.
Among the civilians, we have already discussed the chicken hawks. The other end is the peaceniks. The ones who realize sending other people's kids to their potantial death is not patriotism. In fact it is the opposite.
some what "we need to resolve issues...." "we need to move on..." "we need to be mature"
Why is that???
Just because the other side wants discord doesn't mean we stoop to that level too. Wanting peace is the right thing to do but only as long as we aren't harming our countrymen.
Just because the other side wants discord doesn't mean we stoop to that level too. Wanting peace is the right thing to do but only as long as we aren't harming our countrymen.
Off course. Peace and harmony is the best solution/situation/resolution.
But issue here is people walking towards the ditch saying.. "oh there is no ditch.... "
Pakistani 'kids' are currently fighting a war on Western borders - a long delayed but now a well backed war. Does that make all Pakistani are right wingers, chicken hawks, conservatives, or self proclaimed patriots or whatever labels are being thrown around? No! There will only be peace if there is a country to being with. Peace can neither be one sided nor it can come at the expense of your dignity and national interests.
Pakistanis are very peaceful, war aware and in reality a very war tired nation. They know very well the human and material cost of fighting the war. It is simply not in our interest to open another front. Wish some other countries would also understand this and stop stroking the warmongering hysteria and treating expression of hostility as a sign of supremacy. We have far too many of real problems of our own to allow ourselves the opportunity fantasize about any "short term technical war" against a nuclear armed neighbour. So the real hawks need to stop baiting other nations. The other nations aren't there to reply back to your hate mongering and war hysteria and threats by showering poetic verses on you.
First of all, everyone loves their country, maybe not in a hardcore patriotic way, but there is a deep sense of belonging which creates this emotional attachment with the land you are born in.
Second thing is that I always believe in being over critical with what I love the most. We yell at our kids for the same things that we ignore oabout other's kids. Why? Is that because we are pro-other kids and anti-our kids? Heck no. Its the other way around. I love my kids to death, so I am going to point out their mistakes to them.
I criticize Pakistan a lot, and I dont give a damn to India, so dont care much about their problem. If someone sees that as me having soft corner for India and being harsh on Pakistan, then that is their problem, not mine.
Last thing is that we all have self created standards of patriotism. If you say something against Islam, you are anti Pakistani and pro India. You criticize army then you are anti Pakistani and pro India. You say that bollywood is better film industry than Lollywood then you are anti Pakistani and pro India. Sub ne apne apne standards create kiye huai hain, aur har doosre ko patriotism ke daaire se khaarij kerte rehete hain. We used to hear about holier than thou mentality, now we have patriotic than thou crowd emerging left and right.
this is exactly how i see it, and i know many of my friends see it the same way.
not too sure what a lot of people think they gain by showing their immense support for pakistan and a certain level of disdain for india. if you loved pakistan much more than us lowly westerners then you would openly accept that we have a huge problem in pakistan, and if we actually focussed on tackling it on a social and economic level then we could well and truly have a shot at competing with india at a global level. that is the downfall of us as a country, apne girebaan mai ziyada nahin jhaankna.. bas india pay nazar rakhni hai.
^ How can you say that? There is unprecedented level of awareness and political engagement in the country - we are generally heading towards a right direction (maybe at snail's pace, but still). Just because the topic of Indian aggression comes up, you cannot really accuse Pakistanis of forgetting about all other issues! Maybe such topics are not covered in General, but PA is full of topics concerning Pakistan's social, political and economical well being.
I know that point was mainly for the member who opened a thread about 'us lowly westerners', but even to have the impression that every time we highlight India n aggression, it means we are turning a blind eye to all our other problems. Before the arrival of Modi, no one in Pakistan had any time or breath to waste on India, we really do have far too many real issues of our own to harbour any special obsession with India.
Whether you like it or not, the kind of governments you get in your neighbouring countries does have an impact on you. The tragic unraveling of Indian secularism in India does carry an important message for Pakistan
lol jolie yes, of course pakistan has made progress but the fact of the matter is we still have a very long way to go and on occasions pakistan stunts its own growth. does that mean i am blind to india's issues? no. it is just infuriating when you see so much potential in a country, and not enough progress for it to surface as such. i'm not talking about people who have that balance, where they can criticise indian policies towards pakistan and pakistans own domestic issues. i'm talking about the glaringly oblivious pakistani's who think pakistan can do no wrong. the same sentiment that i expressed in the other thread.
Really everyone, those who pretend to loath labels are guilty of throwing labels; calling people Right wingers, conservatives, self proclaimed patriots etc. The only thing is that they think their tagging and label throwing is fair and balanced, while others are always off the mark. Label throwing is label throwing, calling one side of practice right, and the other wrong is just hypocrisy and double standards.
lol jolie yes, of course pakistan has made progress but the fact of the matter is we still have a very long way to go and on occasions pakistan stunts its own growth. does that mean i am blind to india's issues? no. it is just infuriating when you see so much potential in a country, and not enough progress for it to surface as such. i'm not talking about people who have that balance, where they can criticise indian policies towards pakistan and pakistans own domestic issues. i'm talking about the glaringly oblivious pakistani's who think pakistan can do no wrong. the same sentiment that i expressed in the other thread.
runs away before jolie kicks my pbcp butt :p
Hey hey, don't run away. I like you!
Yeah I see what you are saying, but we need lasting peace not just in the country but in the region to progress. Being threatened by an enemy who is 7xs your size of limited war, proxy war, this war or that war is not a non serious issue at all, it's just piss taking (yeah Brit to Brit talk lol) and puts you as a nation on a whole new mode of panic and annoyance.
this is exactly how i see it, and i know many of my friends see it the same way.
not too sure what a lot of people think they gain by showing their immense support for pakistan and a certain level of disdain for india. if you loved pakistan much more than us lowly westerners then you would openly accept that we have a huge problem in pakistan, and if we actually focussed on tackling it on a social and economic level then we could well and truly have a shot at competing with india at a global level. that is the downfall of us as a country, apne girebaan mai ziyada nahin jhaankna.. bas india pay nazar rakhni hai.
Yes, we have problems.
But we appreciate more if you ABCD move your socks off sofas.. and try to reach out.
Find people and send some them money. Send some books.
Talk to people there.. give them idea(if you have any) etc...
Do freaking some thing.....
See when heart is healthy and veins are open, blood reaches the farthest corners of the body.
So do some thing. You have magic power $$.