Seems to be a hot topic these days so let’s help our membership understand what makes a person pro-India and anti-Pakistan and what makes someone anti-India and therefore pro-Pakistan.
Let me start the list of defining opinions/behaviours/characteristics:
Pro-India/Anti-Pakistan people:
are “worshipping indians due to bollywood”
deserve what they get: “Why are our singers and people going to India? And if you are there and get mistreated you deserved it.”
are all armchair politicians that don’t know what on-the-ground reality truly is
Pro-Pakistan/Anti-India people:
firmly believe that “danger” should be taught: “we need to teach kids immediate danger, till the danger is over.”
anyone that is pro-Pakistan should never acknowledge any good that India has accomplished or they risk losing their membership to this club.
believe that some people “can’t let go of love-india syndrome, they use their “relatives in india” as an excuse”
Is any of the above accurate?
What do you want to change, add or remove?
First of all, everyone loves their country, maybe not in a hardcore patriotic way, but there is a deep sense of belonging which creates this emotional attachment with the land you are born in.
Second thing is that I always believe in being over critical with what I love the most. We yell at our kids for the same things that we ignore oabout other's kids. Why? Is that because we are pro-other kids and anti-our kids? Heck no. Its the other way around. I love my kids to death, so I am going to point out their mistakes to them.
I criticize Pakistan a lot, and I dont give a damn to India, so dont care much about their problem. If someone sees that as me having soft corner for India and being harsh on Pakistan, then that is their problem, not mine.
Last thing is that we all have self created standards of patriotism. If you say something against Islam, you are anti Pakistani and pro India. You criticize army then you are anti Pakistani and pro India. You say that bollywood is better film industry than Lollywood then you are anti Pakistani and pro India. Sub ne apne apne standards create kiye huai hain, aur har doosre ko patriotism ke daaire se khaarij kerte rehete hain. We used to hear about holier than thou mentality, now we have patriotic than thou crowd emerging left and right.
Please consider that criticizing Indian government, foreign policy, laws or officials is not same as criticizing general Indian population. This goes for any country, of course.
Please consider that criticizing Indian government, foreign policy, laws or officials is not same as criticizing general Indian population. This goes for any country, of course.
Exactly, it goes for any country. Unfortunately criticizing Pakistani institutions will also throw you out of the patriot circle as well and u are doomed to be called traitor etc.
We all know wut indian extremists and govt are doing so there is no second opinion about it except condemning.
As per OP, its not true to a large extent but some vocal posters surely would say so. Its really unfortunate how quick we are to lash a decree on someone for being unpatriotic, pro-indian and what not.
I think it'll all come to an end if we for once agree not to generalize at all.
Exactly, it goes for any country. Unfortunately criticizing Pakistani institutions will also throw you out of the patriot circle as well and u are doomed to be called traitor etc.
Criticising an institution which has given up hundreds of thousands of lives defending Pakistan is unacceptable.
Someone who is smart can criticise the top level leadership of the army but you see vile comments aimed at normal Pak Army soliders, even those who have died in the past. We've seen it many times on this forum, especially on Defence day. Shocking stuff. "Oh we got embarrassed in 65, 71, Kargil, what have they ever done" etc etc.
Such talk would be deemed unacceptable in any country worldwide.
Criticising an institution which has given up hundreds of thousands of lives defending Pakistan is unacceptable.
Someone who is smart can criticise the top level leadership of the army but you see vile comments aimed at normal Pak Army soliders, even those who have died in the past. We've seen it many times on this forum, especially on Defence day. Shocking stuff. "Oh we got embarrassed in 65, 71, Kargil, what have they ever done" etc etc.
Such talk would be deemed unacceptable in any country worldwide.
There we go again.......... wuts definition of your acceptability might not be the same for others, would it?
Brace yourself everyone.. Patriotic Fatwas are about to begin any sec :)
There we go again.......... wuts definition of your acceptability might not be the same for others, would it?
Brace yourself everyone.. Patriotic Fatwas are about to begin any sec :)
Do you think it's acceptable to have a go at soldiers who have DIED fighting for your country? As well as being clueless enough to say we got embarrassed in 65 and 99? Or to criticise Pakistan for making more weapons, believing that the military budget is the reason for our economic struggles? Laughable.
Do you think it's acceptable to have a go at soldiers who have DIED fighting for your country? As well as being clueless enough to say we got embarrassed in 65 and 99? Or to criticise Pakistan for making more weapons, believing that the military budget is the reason for our economic struggles? Laughable.
I'm glad you find it laughable cuz thats the best it is. You have your own perspective others have theirs. Its that simple.
By now pretty much everyone knows that you have called so many people traitors in PA that nobody has called it in such a short span. But thats fine to me, trust me. Its your own thing, you wana call them more names, go for it.
Same goes for others.
But as i said to OP, despite some vocal voices calling each other out, there is still a majority who wana discuss this issue with a good mutual understanding so we'll keep trying for that. :)
^ I don't think the statement ''Someone who is smart can criticise the top level leadership of the army but you see vile comments aimed at normal Pak Army soliders, even those who have died in the past. '' means anyone is called a traitor. And even in Western countries calling the sacrifices of dead soldiers will get massive amounts of criticism and frankly rightly so. All of us are armchair critics and have no idea what it would take for someone to consider their own life as secondary to serving their country. Criticising the generals i.e. Musharraf, or Kiyani or Raheel etc is vastly different than also including the shaheeds in that criticism. Not making that massive distinction is IMO opening anyone up for criticism.
As for the thread, I think naturally everyone loves their country in their own way and sometimes people will naturally get riled up. Especially when it comes to India. I don't think anyone is being genuinely racist against Indians when they say that India is tilting towards extremism, which it is. However generally nowdays, there is an extreme right and extreme left emerging in every country with no in between.
I'm glad you find it laughable cuz thats the best it is. You have your own perspective others have theirs. Its that simple.
By now pretty much everyone knows that you have called so many people traitors in PA that nobody has called it in such a short span. But thats fine to me, trust me. Its your own thing, you wana call them more names, go for it.
Same goes for others.
But as i said to OP, despite some vocal voices calling each other out, there is still a majority who wana discuss this issue with a good mutual understanding so we'll keep trying for that. :)
I genuinely wanted to get your perspective. It was a straightforward question, friend.
^ I don't think the statement ''Someone who is smart can criticise the top level leadership of the army but you see vile comments aimed at normal Pak Army soliders, even those who have died in the past. '' means anyone is called a traitor. And even in Western countries calling the sacrifices of dead soldiers will get massive amounts of criticism and frankly rightly so. All of us are armchair critics and have no idea what it would take for someone to consider their own life as secondary to serving their country. Criticising the generals i.e. Musharraf, or Kiyani or Raheel etc is vastly different than also including the shaheeds in that criticism. Not making that massive distinction is IMO opening anyone up for criticism.
As for the thread, I think naturally everyone loves their country in their own way and sometimes people will naturally get riled up. Especially when it comes to India. I don't think anyone is being genuinely racist against Indians when they say that India is tilting towards extremism, which it is. However generally nowdays, there is an extreme right and extreme left emerging in every country with no in between.
Well said.
In West, you do everything else on Remembrance Day, but you do not insult your Armed forces and the trivialise sacrifices of your soldiers. Some people really thought it was really smart move to pass crass and derogatory remarks about your own Army, dismiss their sacrifices, abuse your very own and a very fine Army chief on Defence Day (of all the days). just because he made a speech saying we are prepared to defend ourselves in every single way (a clear message to India). So when you say things like this and in such manner, how can you not have your agenda and intentions questioned? When you act like this, how do you expect people to interpret your behaviour?
We still have War Veterans from 1965 war, civilian survivors and witnesses, but some people don't have the basic decency and courtesy to respect those people's memories and experiences, but they have the galls to protest over lack of courtesy and considerations given to them.
I have to point out that people who insist on giving India the benefit of doubt in every circumstances, protest against generalisations and false accusation are exactly the type that have made their own institution the victim of all that.
How can you ask that India should not be generalised, when you have no problem generalising the contemptuous, stereotypical 'bloody civilians' thought process to your Army? Most probably on the basis of propaganda spewed by spiteful individuals like Asma Jahangir and Hamid Mir who genuinely have a lot of extremely personal scores to settle with the whole of institution?
You have probably never met a Pak Fauj soldier or general in your life, you have most certainly never met a soldier who had ever used that term or admitted to using that, but you conveniently generalize such discriminatory, such malicious and anti people generalisation to your own Army. Then complain when people call you out on that?
Most people are so blinded by their hatred of dictators and propaganda to realise that all Army men's mothers are civilians, their fathers are civilians, their sisters are civilians, their wives are civilians, their children are civilians, the towns, cities and villages they go back to are all made up of civilians. They people they readily give up their lives for protecting are civilians. In 20-30 years time when the uniforms come off, they are all civilians. Then how can you paint your Army as civilian hating villainous entity when every precept of their oath, training and mission revolves around the pledge to protect the Pakistani civilians? How can you have the nerve to insult and defame your own Army with such crass stereotyping? Is this really fair?
Generalisation against India are bad, but are generalisations against your Army are really helpful, productive and fair?
On topic: If some people want to turn words like 'patriots' or 'Army lovers' into dirty words, then go ahead. These are the titles most Pakistanis would happily take with both hands compare to what other titles are really out there. People should not be ashamed for being called patriots or Army lovers - why should they?
As with whole pro-Indian sentiments - sorry to say but most probably you will be called out on, challenged and debunked if you go out of your way to make 'Pakistan just as bad as India' in topics where Indian atrocities should be the only focus and deserving of wholehearted and undivided criticism. Whether you like it or not, there will be people who would argue based on facts that their country is not 'just as bad as India'. So any attempt to dilute, dismiss and disperse absolute criticism on India by unnecessarily dragging in Pakistan will be challenged and most probably seen as opportunistic pestering and patronisation by some. Most Pakistanis are simply fed up of being equated with India when the latter finds itself in deep sheet. Indians did not equate themselves with Pakistan when Pakistan was going through a rough phase, or did they?
Vast majority of Pakistanis are not obliged to apologies for India or go absolutely tight lipped simply because they genuinely do not share any personal links/familial connections with that country - this is also a reality that a tiny minority of Pakistanis need to accept and realise.
Not a single member on this board can be accused of not being aware of Pakistan's problems, or nor condemning the wrongs in Pakistan. Most members, including myself, have went above and beyond everything to thrash the country over plenty of different issues, so it is annoying to have Pakistanis constantly reminding you of 'Pakistan's* ouqaat'* the moment you decide put India on the spot.
India had always belittled, defamed, abused, insulted and discredited Pakistan on extremism despite having a much worse track record of mistreating minorities under the so called secular and democratic credentials. Why shouldn't they be exposed and condemned? Vast majority of Pakistanis are simply too frustrated and fed up of negative propaganda hatched by enemies who aren't any better themselves. It is simple the realisation of the fact that those that made Pakistanis feel like absolute crap are actually quite worse on their own.
The travesty and tragedy secularism may prove to be a very good lessons for Pakistanis who are watching and feeling disgusted.
....Someone who is smart can criticise the top level leadership of the army but you see vile comments aimed at normal Pak Army soliders, even those who have died in the past. We've seen it many times on this forum, ......
Let me start the list of defining opinions/behaviours/characteristics:
Pro-India/Anti-Pakistan people:
- are "worshipping indians due to bollywood"
- deserve what they get: "Why are our singers and people going to India? And if you are there and get mistreated you deserved it."
- are all armchair politicians that don't know what on-the-ground reality truly is
I can't speak for all artists because I am not into Bollywood nor very up to date with all Pakistan showbiz news, but yes why would PCB Chief go to India amidst such hostilities and threats from Hindu extremist when it was given that India does not want to revive sporting ties between two nations? Would Indian cricketers visit Pakistan against everyone's wishes when there is a clear threat to their lives and clear hatred for the message you are bringing? People like him deserve whatever he got by the hands of Shiv Sena because the writing was on the wall, he hurt the sentiments of his countrymen by spinelessly begging and pleading a hostile nation for a series despite their numerous refusals.
There is something called self respect!
[QUOTE]
Pro-Pakistan/Anti-India people:
- firmly believe that "danger" should be taught: "we need to teach kids immediate danger, till the danger is over." - anyone that is pro-Pakistan should never acknowledge any good that India has accomplished or they risk losing their membership to this club.
- believe that some people "can't let go of love-india syndrome, they use their "relatives in india" as an excuse"?
[/QUOTE]
Totally incorrect. Most Pakistanis really appreciate India for having a strong and independent cricket board, election commission, continuous democratic process, a highly politicised middle class, and LG system etc etc.
Did likes of Imran Khan lose their membership of that club for acknowledging these things? Now on the other side of border, we know what happens when someone remotely gives credit to Pakistan.