tis is a time of electionz in India, n s a particular & prominent neighbor country, Pakistan will b affected somehow wid their results – @ present which party will b more suitable 4 good relations b/w India & Pakistan ‘’CONGRESS OR BJP?’’ which of da party from both of them u consider better 4 da promotion of so called welfare desirez b/w both countries ?
Re: Indian Electionz n Pakistan
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Simply Seema: *
tis is a time of electionz in India, n s a particular & prominent neighbor country, Pakistan will b affected somehow wid their results – @ present which party will b more suitable 4 good relations b/w India & Pakistan *‘’CONGRESS OR BJP?’’** which of da party from both of them u consider better 4 da promotion of so called welfare desirez b/w both countries ?
[/QUOTE]
^
I think that is an entirely internal matter of India. As for my views as a Pakistani, I would want to see any party that comes to the peace talks with sincerety of purpose.
yes lets hope the new leader is serious about total solutions!
i'm afraid if congress comes up as the winner, they might take forward Nehru's policies for Pakistan ahead, which were totally against cooperation and understanding. He actually hated pakistan's existence. and the BJP, well, even if they get reelected, what good have they 'actually done' so far other than just talk and say they want better relations.
so i guess whoever comes, may he/she be a good person with positive aims and goals in mind towards serving humanity and not ego.
lets also hope it doesnt end up like the Isareli elections; everytime you hope the new guy would have a soft corner for the Palestinians and Muslims, but he turns out to be a bigger piece of sh** than the previous one.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Haris Zuberi: *
yes lets hope the **new leader* is serious about total solutions!
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What do you mean 'new leader'? Is PM Vajpayee resigning resiging?
:k:…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gupta: *
What do you mean 'new leader'? Is PM Vajpayee resigning resiging?
[/QUOTE]
i obviously meant whoever gets elected.
It appears this is going to be the second Indian election won by Ataji because of a Pakistani Fauji. ;)
Last time it was Kargil, this time it's cricket, what's even funnier is when you read Indians saying "Pakistan is irrelevant to India and India is competing with China and the World" Indian politics has historically been very Pakistan centric..
At the political level..it's easier for Indian hawks to move past stated positions because they don't have to worry about being atatcked politically. Whether the NDA is actually capable of reaching a just compromise on Kashmir is another matter..
Salam to all,
Excellent topic to bring-up Seema.
I think besides watching the elections closely, Pakestan needs to build and exercise a strong pool of caution WHICHEVER party ends up ruling in India (I think the BJP will win). The point is that regardless of the result of the elections Pakestan has more than enough to adopt a skeptical. We can see this by analyzing the track-record of the two giants of Inidan politics (Congress and BJP):
(1) Congress: supposedly the most "secular" party in India. However, Pakestanis know full well that all 3 wars to date were when the "secular" Congress was ruling India. So if one denies this empirical evidence, then one is playing a very dangerous game.
(2) BJP: well take a look at the core founding philosophies of their party (which are posted on their website TODAY):
"SEMITIC MONOTHEISM:
THE ROOT OF INTOLERANCE IN INDIA
By S. GURUMURTHY
S. Gurumurthy argues that the monotheistic Semitic religions of what he calls "the West" brought intolerance to India. Traditionally, Gurumurthy argues, Indian culture was characterized by a liberal pluralism stemming from the polytheism of Hindu beliefs.
In the history of human civilization there have been two distinct ways of life -- the eastern and the Semitic. If we look at the history of India and of its people on the one hand and at the history of Semitic societies on the other, we find a glaring difference. In India the society and individual form the center of gravity, the fulcrum around which the polity revolves, and the state is merely a residuary concept. On the other hand, in the Semitic tradition the state wields all the power and forms the soul and the backbone of the polity.
HINDUTVA AS INDIA'S ANCHOR
The assimilative Hindu cultural and civilizational ethos is the only basis for any durable personal and social interaction between the Muslims and the rest of our countrymen. This societal assimilative realization is the basis for Indian nationalism, and only an inclusive Hindutva can assimilate an exclusive Islam by making the Muslims conscious of their Hindu ancestry and heritage. A national effort is called for to break Islamic exclusivism and enshrine the assimilative Hindutva. This alone constitutes true nationalism and true national integration. This is the only way to protect the plurality of thoughts and institutions in this country. To the extent secularism advances Islamic isolation and exclusivism, it damages Hindu inclusiveness and its assimilative qualities. And in this sense secularism as practiced until now conflicts with Indin nationalism. Inclusive and assimilative Hindutva is the socio-cultural nationalism of India. So long as our national leaders ignore this eternal truth, national integration will keep eluding us."
So Pakestan needs to be cautious - whatever comes from across the East needs to be examined critically, skeptically, and with a a thought-process that incorporates any and all potential ulterior motives the Eastern neighbour may have. Also, Pakestan should be brace itself for an onslaught propelled by liguistic, ethnical, cultural factors from across the East. Here in Dubai, Hindi and Pakestani people are already well on their way to producing "joint" dramas, movies, songs, etc. BEWARE!: what could not be achieved by force (Pakestan surprised the world by being a nuclear power), will now be attempted by singing, dancing, sports and an attempt to cloud monotheistic principles via an alien culture.
What do you guys think?
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*Originally posted by El Turki: *
What do you guys think?
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Wa'Salaams,
Mr. El-Turki, are you Pakistani? If not, I think you should be an honorary Pakistani. Your insights are both refreshing and informative. I do believe that Hindutva's rise will destructive..Any fundamentalist movement, by nature excludes and marginalizes certain groups.
I really do hope that you to write here at gupshup, because we do need intellectual individuals with a steady foresight.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Turki: *
Salam to all,
So Pakestan needs to be cautious - whatever comes from across the East needs to be examined critically, skeptically, and with a a thought-process that incorporates any and all potential ulterior motives the Eastern neighbour may have. Also, Pakestan should be brace itself for an onslaught propelled by liguistic, ethnical, cultural factors from across the East. Here in Dubai, Hindi and Pakestani people are already well on their way to producing "joint" dramas, movies, songs, etc. BEWARE!: what could not be achieved by force (Pakestan surprised the world by being a nuclear power), will now be attempted by singing, dancing, sports and an attempt to cloud monotheistic principles via an alien culture.
What do you guys think?
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't even comment on the rest of your post because it is devoid of any historical, academic or professional pedigree. Go make a sand castle.. :)
To the point quoted above. Let's say Pakistan has no intereaction with India. (In an earlier post you suggested a cutoff for 20 yrs). Which model arabic country should Pakistan look up to? IS there one? Maybe afghanistan is the model...no wait..yemen, or is it Dubai? You know..where the bars are a plenty and chicks can belly dance till 4 am.
Here is the dose of reality, Unless Pakistan physically lifts itself and supplants itself in arabia, they are going to have to content with what people want..which is greater interaction with people on both the east and western borders. In fact, Forget India, in athe coming years you will see those goddamn heathen buddhist chinese flooding the Pakistani markets with textiles, karoake bars and BEER. Yes BEER.
Offfffffffff!
"Hay yeh mirchi!!!" mad3:
And all this for just saying that Pakestan needs to be skeptical of Hind!
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Which model arabic country should Pakistan look up to? IS there one? Maybe afghanistan is the model...no wait..yemen, or is it Dubai? You know..where the bars are a plenty and chicks can belly dance till 4 am.
[/QUOTE]
Lack of a model doesn't mean Pakestan should follow the defective Hindi model! I believe Pakestan has the potential to be a model for Arabia and Afghanistan! - ie a country a fraction in geographical size and population numbers to a rival which withstood the temptation of frivolous things and stuck to its principles to rebound and silent it's critics.
[QUOTE]
they are going to have to content with what people want..which is greater interaction with people on both the east and western borders. In fact, Forget India, in athe coming years you will see those goddamn heathen buddhist chinese flooding the Pakistani markets with textiles, karoake bars and BEER. Yes BEER.
[/QUOTE]
:
As for the belly dancing - do you know which is the highest number of nationality of women which "entertain" men and provide domestic household services in Dubai? - heheheh! u won't like it man!
I rest my case. You have shown everyone that you ultimately want Pakestan to drown in beer (Bombay - opps Mumbai already has - I've lived there - even went to a disco once : met a waitress there who thought she was pretty and she wanted me to get her a job in Dubai!)
Of course I was "forced" by my Indian friends to visit the disco - they wanted me to show how "advanced" Mumbai and Mollywood had become!
Anyway, let's stick to the thread of discussion: Indian elections and the impact on Pakestan. And thanks for conducting the accurate statistics that show what most Pakestanis want whilst sitting in Delhi!!!
Let the people judge whose arguments and posting are "devoid" of intellect.
So Pakestan needs to be cautious - whatever comes from across the East needs to be examined critically, skeptically, and with a a thought-process that incorporates any and all potential ulterior motives the Eastern neighbour may have. Also, Pakestan should be brace itself for an onslaught propelled by liguistic, ethnical, cultural factors from across the East. Here in Dubai, Hindi and Pakestani people are already well on their way to producing “joint” dramas, movies, songs, etc. BEWARE!: what could not be achieved by force (Pakestan surprised the world by being a nuclear power), will now be attempted by singing, dancing, sports and an attempt to cloud monotheistic principles via an alien culture.
Well said! MashaAllah you have a deep insight into various aspects of what India is up to. Sensible and great nations are always able to realize the hidden threat . Especially a nation like that of Islam would always remain dominant if they hold fast to the Quran and Sunnah. No power on earth can defeat the nation of the Prophet :saw: , if it really is the ummah of the Prophet::saw: It is for us to realize our true worth instead of wandering East or West.
Great are the ideals on which the largest Muslim country was born in 1947 and great are its 140 milllion who by the will of Allah will pass through this exam also and become a model for others to follow.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Turki: *
Offfffffffff!
"Hay yeh mirchi!!!" mad3:
And all this for just saying that Pakestan needs to be skeptical of Hind!
Lack of a model doesn't mean Pakestan should follow the defective Hindi model! I believe Pakestan has the potential to be a model for Arabia and Afghanistan! - ie a country a fraction in geographical size and population numbers to a rival which withstood the temptation of frivolous things and stuck to its principles to rebound and silent it's critics.
[/QUOTE]
fine a new model..can you layout a plan for that model or are you just talking in hyperbole as usual? The last country that closed itself in the south asian geography ended up with the Taliban as the model choice. So please..give me a plan..pretty please!!!!
:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Turki: *As for the belly dancing - do you know which is the highest number of nationality of women which "entertain" men and provide domestic household services in Dubai? - heheheh! u won't like it man!
I rest my case. You have shown everyone that you ultimately want Pakestan to drown in beer (Bombay - opps Mumbai already has - I've lived there - even went to a disco once : met a waitress there who thought she was pretty and she wanted me to get her a job in Dubai!)
Of course I was "forced" by my Indian friends to visit the disco - they wanted me to show how "advanced" Mumbai and Mollywood had become!
Anyway, let's stick to the thread of discussion: Indian elections and the impact on Pakestan. And thanks for conducting the accurate statistics that show what most Pakestanis want whilst sitting in Delhi!!!
Let the people judge whose arguments and posting are "devoid" of intellect.
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I want Pakistan to be a successful country that is democratic, economically strong and at peace with its neighbors. Like I want India. These things will happen when there is cultural, economic and historical sharing of ideas and choices which are steeped in tolerance.
As far as Indian elections go. What does it matter to Pakistanis? elections are an alien phenomenon like the jihadist culture that came from the west.
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As far as Indian elections go. What does it matter to Pakistanis? elections are an alien phenomenon like the jihadist culture that came from the west.
[/QUOTE]
(a) Fro th first part of your quote, please read Seema's right logic in at the start of this thread:
[QUOTE]
tis is a time of electionz in India, n s a particular & prominent neighbor country, Pakistan will b affected somehow wid their results – @ present which party will b more suitable 4 good relations b/w India & Pakistan ‘’CONGRESS OR BJP?’’ which of da party from both of them u consider better 4 da promotion of so called welfare desirez b/w both countries ?
[/QUOTE]
She has clearly shown WHY Hindi elections matter to Pakestan.
(b) Why are so obsessed with bringing in "jehadist culture" (whatever that means??!), "Taliban", "terrorism" in many of your posts???
No one even bothers digging out these nonsensical topics - not me, not anyother Pakestani - but you always try to dig these up and clutch on to them?????
Seriously, all my posts talk about Pakestan being better off without Hind: politically, economically, strategically, etc.
If you can't take that there is no need to create smoke-screens by bringing in irrelevant topics. I am sure everyone agrees with me on this.
Stick to the posts - its healthier. Seema asked who is better for Pakestan? I said both need to be watched with caution.
you come back bringing in belly dancer, models for Pakestan, etc.????
Then you come back with "jehadist culture" etc. which no one has touched and which has nothing to do with any of the posts I have seen on Pakestan?????????
Shou haza?? (what's this?).
Again with the rhetoric..can you tell me how Pakistan can benefit by cuttingoff form India culturally. Can you give some tabngible examples of how int he neighborhood that Pakistan is in, how it would structure its gov't, develop it's economy..etc.
Give me some tangible plans man..stop with the rhetoric.
As far as Seems's question goes, the people of India have decied that reprroachment is better for their livelihood,. Means a kick ass economy, a new market for goods, cheaper imports and cultural exchanges. So no matter which party is in the office, the repproachment is gonna be there. But BJP is probably the best thing for India/pakistan relations.
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As far as Seems's question goes, the people of India have decied that reprroachment is better for their livelihood,. Means a kick ass economy, a new market for goods, cheaper imports and cultural exchanges. So no matter which party is in the office, the repproachment is gonna be there. But BJP is probably the best thing for India/pakistan relations.
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I don't have a problem with sincere reproachment. Everyone's a winner then including Arabs.
But what I have a problem with is reproachment in the guise of ulterior motives harbouring hegemonic designs.
Can there not be peace and prosperous trading relations between India and Pakestan without the cultural dimensions? I mean look at Arabia and India - everything is hunky dorie without all this culture and sports.
I just feel Pakestan has a lot more to offer the world than being dominating by India - whether it is trade, culture, economics,........ -
so possibly we both seem to want Pakestan to prosper - the critical difference is that you feel it a'int happening without first aligning itself to India; I say Pakestan has an opportunity to explore far more and beyond Inida even in this nascent state of economic prosperity that it has.
I mean let the Pakestan people decide who they want to partner with and to what extent. You know the way you say Indians have decided so and so and so and hence so and so and so is gonna happen - smacks of you underestimating Pakestan! . Hind is free to decide what it wants - fine. But Pakestan people can also apply their intelligence and don't need to be told about the HAVE's and HAVE's NOT of successful nation-building - especially not by a neighbour that has fought three wars with it, has chopped it once and tried to chop it on more than one ocassion (I have heard radio transmissions coming out of Indian radio stations in Sindhi that ask Pakestan Sindhis to go towards separating from Pakestan). YOU maybe different but apparently not all 1 billion Indians seem as sincere as you allege to be.
So what's the biggie? Let Pakestan decide its course of actions. or is that too much to ask from its eastern neighbour??!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Turki: *
I don't have a problem with sincere reproachment. Everyone's a winner then including Arabs.
But what I have a problem with is reproachment in the guise of ulterior motives harbouring hegemonic designs.
[/QUOTE]
Who cares about arabs? SHould they be working on having better relations with the rest of the world? You seem to have something up your craw about Indian conspiracies. You are wrong.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Turki: *Can there not be peace and prosperous trading relations between India and Pakestan without the cultural dimensions? I mean look at Arabia and India - everything is hunky dorie without all this culture and sports.
[/QUOTE]
No, there cannot be peace and trade without cultural give and take. It is inevitable because of the proximity of the two countries. Arabia and Indian trade is minimal in the greater scheme of things. It is because of the idiocy of the arabs.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Turki: *I just feel Pakestan has a lot more to offer the world than being dominating by India - whether it is trade, culture, economics,........ -
so possibly we both seem to want Pakestan to prosper - the critical difference is that you feel it a'int happening without first aligning itself to India; I say Pakestan has an opportunity to explore far more and beyond Inida even in this nascent state of economic prosperity that it has.
[/QUOTE]
What makes you think pakistan is being dominated by India? You seem to have this misconception, I suggest you get it cleared. It will inevitably be dominated in trade because of the sheer size of the economies. THat means good things...a market of a billion people for pakistani goods, ya nudnik. Who should Pakistan align itself to? The repressive regimes of the arab world? The Gulf sheikdoms where drinks flow like rivers?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Turki: *I mean let the Pakestan people decide who they want to partner with and to what extent. You know the way you say Indians have decided so and so and so and hence so and so and so is gonna happen - smacks of you underestimating Pakestan! . Hind is free to decide what it wants - fine. But Pakestan people can also apply their intelligence and don't need to be told about the HAVE's and HAVE's NOT of successful nation-building - especially not by a neighbour that has fought three wars with it, has chopped it once and tried to chop it on more than one ocassion (I have heard radio transmissions coming out of Indian radio stations in Sindhi that ask Pakestan Sindhis to go towards separating from Pakestan). YOU maybe different but apparently not all 1 billion Indians seem as sincere as you allege to be.
So what's the biggie? Let Pakestan decide its course of actions. or is that too much to ask from its eastern neighbour??!
[/QUOTE]
Exactly, let the people decide. It seem sthat most people in Pakistan want peace with India as it is in INdia. It seems that most people like cultural exchange in both places. I won't even comment on the last part of the above quoted paragrapjh because it is devoiod of any intellectual merit.
No one is saying pakistan shouldn't go out and make its mark int he world. But it is going to happen when ideads are shared and exchanged, it si not going to happen if you shut it self off from its neighbors, be they china, India or Afhanistan. arabs are foeigners..they ar enot neighbors.
Well, well, well…i’m glad you posted your last reply. Your choice of words vis-a-vis mine shows your Indian vulgarity! (terms like Arabs’ idiocy and nudnik,…)
Believe me I can throw back insults at you and your hindi race like you did but then I will coming down to the same level as you. So frankly the likes of you a’int worth it. By the way, what i posted initially which you termed as pathetic was from your beloved BJP!
Check out how many people have already read this post and thread. They know what you are really about and frankly I don’t care about an Indians’ viewpoint.
hhehehe! “munnay - shant ho ja!” (that’s sankrit right)
O by the way - Pakis seem to be appreciating my posts so me continuing!. Please do continue and prove me right!
^ Yes, please do continue to make a fool out of yourself. :k:
20 years cutoff 
Fool! I guess thats your level…so its ok…and it suits you.