Indian Democracy!

[Matrubhoomi]

Re: Indian Democracy!

@mercenary2k

Plenty. There are over 5 Million Hindus living in Pakistan. Thats more than an enough number to take revenge on after what happened in Gujrat. The fact that nothing happened is a testament to Pakistan.?

I wonder from where you manage to get such figures like 5 million. Can you site some reference?

As per 1998 data Pakistan has hardly 2.5 million Hindus, in different parts.

This number merely makes 1.5 % of total population— negligible in terms of political clout to cause any social turmoil.

Do you mean it was so generous of Pakistan to spare this 1.5 % Hindus in Pakistan.

Before division, these areas had 15% of Hindu population, same like Muslim population in India—that is some significant no. in terms of political exploitation/riots etc.

Really?

Care to give examples?

You didn’t read it correctly, it’s more related to wiping of Vedic and Budhhists shrines by invasion of Islam rather than Pakistan which came in existence after 1947.

If you want to know more how, Vedic and Budhhist Dharma and places were wiped out systematically, then you have to know the entire history starting from Ummayad Arab army led by Bin Qasim Mohammed which invaded Sindh and Lower Punjab, during that time all Punjabis were mainly Hindus or Budhhists in some no.

Give examples

There are many temples of Archieological imprtance—at least for the sake of heritage and NOT for Islam Pakistan must save these valuable and precious ancient Shrines

Some of temples which I have heard from tourism point of view is Salt Range, Kastaraj and Sharada Tirtha (highly important in Hinduism) are in Pakistan.

I heard that a lot of temples have been destroyed in Pakistan.

This news source tells that more that around 1000 temples were destroyed in Pakitstan during 1992—that is shocking

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\12\08\story_8-12-2006_pg7_11

Its mostly Extremists who did this crap. Do you see Sunni and Shia fighting in Pakistan like they are doing in Iraq?

I am not sure— but can you put all figures of Shia’s being killed in so many attacks in Pakistan since 1947.
I am sure the figure will be something considerable.

You can’t compare a country like Iraq which is literally in a civil war to justify something.

Please tell me how many Muslims are working in RAW?

I don’t know, how RAW functions but I have heard they do hire covertly even people from Pakistan…and even ISI hires Indians—You should not look into an intelligence agency to figure out an opinion.

Why to look in RAW, when President and Prime Minister themselves are belonging to minority community?

Do you know present President of India was a candidate of BJP–the right wing nationalist party whom often you level as anti-Muslim?

Thats just your assumption without facutal basis.
Have there been any wide spread riots like Gujrat against Shia or any other minority?

Where is the “significant” minority??..by significant I mean 15% or more.
who will like to riot with some negligible 1.5% of so called “minorities”.

Has the government supported rioters when they killed minorities in Pakistan

Forget killing of minority, recently more than 40 people were killed in Karachi within an hour, and I read this has “tacit” support of governmment.

Look, when politics comes in play and “kursi” is the ultimate goal, all talks of good governance vanish.
This is why I say we are still a third world country and should not be looked from an expat desis point of view.

[mercenary2k]

Re: Indian Democracy!

@Matrubhoomi

I wonder from where you manage to get such figures like 5 million. Can you site some reference?

As per 1998 data Pakistan has hardly 2.5 million Hindus, in different parts.

This number merely makes 1.5 % of total population— negligible in terms of political clout to cause any social turmoil.

1998 data was wrong. There were more than 4 Million Hindus and now 10 years has passed and their population has grown to 5 Million.

As for being negligible, maybe you should take a look at our Supreme Court Judge who is Hindu.

@Matrubhoomi

Do you mean it was so generous of Pakistan to spare this 1.5 % Hindus in Pakistan.

They sure are. Since you guys couldn’t spare the Sikhs who also make up a similar percentage of India’s population.

@Matrubhoomi

Before division, these areas had 15% of Hindu population, same like Muslim population in India—that is some significant no. in terms of political exploitation/riots etc.

And after partition many of them left, unfortunately.

@Matrubhoomi

You didn’t read it correctly, it’s more related to wiping of Vedic and Budhhists shrines by invasion of Islam rather than Pakistan which came in existence after 1947.

If you want to know more how, Vedic and Budhhist Dharma and places were wiped out systematically, then you have to know the entire history starting from Ummayad Arab army led by Bin Qasim Mohammed which invaded Sindh and Lower Punjab, during that time all Punjabis were mainly Hindus or Budhhists in some no.

I am talking about Pakistan. If you want to go back to history then there have been many episodes of different religions destroying each other holy sites. Such as Muslims taking over Hagia Sophia in Costantinopole in 1453 or Christians taking the Grand Mosque in Granada, etc…

@Matrubhoomi

There are many temples of Archieological imprtance—at least for the sake of heritage and NOT for Islam Pakistan must save these valuable and precious ancient Shrines

They sure are and we must do our very best to preserve them. Thats why millions of Sikhs come to Pakistan to perform their pilgrimage.

@Matrubhoomi

Some of temples which I have heard from tourism point of view is Salt Range, Kastaraj and Sharada Tirtha (highly important in Hinduism) are in Pakistan.

And you are more than welcome to come and visit them.

@Matrubhoomi

I heard that a lot of temples have been destroyed in Pakistan.

This news source tells that more that around 1000 temples were destroyed in Pakitstan during 1992—that is shocking :grumpy:

Most of those temples were abandoned after most of the hindu population left and were in the way of development. If the Hindus didnt leave, not one of them would have been destroyed.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\12\08\story_8-12-2006_pg7_11

@Matrubhoomi

I am not sure— but can you put all figures of Shia’s being killed in so many attacks in Pakistan since 1947.
I am sure the figure will be something considerable.

The sunni-shia violence has killed around 2,000 people over a period of 20 years. In that time India has managed to kill 100,000 muslims in kashmir, 2,000 in bombay and another 2,000 in gujrat.

Well done India

@Matrubhoomi

You can’t compare a country like Iraq which is literally in a civil war to justify something.

But you are saying that minorities are treated horrible in Pakistan. I am just showing you it is not the case.

@Matrubhoomi

I don’t know, how RAW functions but I have heard they do hire covertly even people from Pakistan…and even ISI hires Indians—You should not look into an intelligence agency to figure out an opinion.

They might. But currently, only 2% of RAW’s staff is Muslim. Even RAW have complained of such a discrepency.

@Matrubhoomi

Why to look in RAW, when President and Prime Minister themselves are belonging to minority community?

and yet are powerless to act against hindu interests.

Tell me, can the PM or President issue a law which could call for the rebuilding of Babri Mosque?

@Matrubhoomi

Do you know present President of India was a candidate of BJP–the right wing nationalist party whom often you level as anti-Muslim?

That is sad to know that any muslim would associate themselves with such a virulent Anti-Muslim party like the BJP. Its like a Jew associating himself with the Nazi Party.

@Matrubhoomi

Where is the “significant” minority??..by significant I mean 15% or more.
who will like to riot with some negligible 1.5% of so called “minorities”.

Forget killing of minority, recently more than 40 people were killed in Karachi within an hour, and I read this has “tacit” support of governmment.

Those were political gangs.

@Matrubhoomi

Look, when politics comes in play and “kursi” is the ultimate goal, all talks of good governance vanish.
This is why I say we are still a third world country and should not be looked from an expat desis point of view.

Agree

[ravage]

Re: Indian Democracy!

@Matrubhoomi

Let me put it in a Nutshell—

Any person living in a Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Athiest, Hindu, Sikh, Pagan society will be much safer than living in a Muslim country.

This is a fact if the persons religion is a “significant minority”.

You can see the example worlwide, not only in Asia. (Tukey is ONLY exception because they are close to Europe and are fiercely secular NOT Sharia)

hahaha.. completely untrue.

The vast majority, 80% of expatriates living in the Gulf are Hindus. There has never been an incident of the kind of mass bloodbaths minorities have to endure in Hindu dominated India.

As for this being an isolated incident and a blot on Indian democracy, you’re either misstating things or unaware, but India has a history of periodic communal rioting (guess who got the worst of the attacks over the ages?), documented back to the middle ages.

Heres a list:

major communal riots in india:

http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1994_2/msg00096.html

great article on the same.

University of Washington Press

riots in india between 1920 and 1940

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...tion/307c.html

[Matrubhoomi]

Re: Indian Democracy!

hahaha.. completely untrue.

The vast majority, 80% of expatriates living in the Gulf are Hindus. There has never been an incident of the kind of mass bloodbaths minorities have to endure in Hindu dominated India.

As for this being an isolated incident and a blot on Indian democracy, you're either misstating things or unaware, but India has a history of periodic communal rioting (guess who got the worst of the attacks over the ages?), documented back to the middle ages.

Not untrue.

You are giving an example of Gulf countries expat population, without even attemting to know some basic facts.

So, let's dissect this myth called "population" of Indian expats in Gulf which is often used in someway to prove a point.

Firstly vast majority of them are just "workers" on a work-visa----

(1) NOT A CITIZEN.

(2) NOT a Human being who can even Voice their Opinion about their sufferrings

(3) NOT a Human being who can Vote (if at all their election exists)

(4) NOT a human being who can Purchase a land and be an Owner

The above is the biggest difference which makes Gulf expats completely different than population of various religious/linguistic/ethnic population we have in Indian subcontinent.

I would say that you should not look at USA or European/Canadian expats and compare them in the same line with Gulf expats.

The difference between these two is as clear as sky in Gulf, any expat living in Gulf and USA will agree with this.

Having said that you will wonder why then Gulf countries so called Sheikhs are so much interested in hiring workers from India, Nepal, Pakitsan Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

reason is simple, they have got temporary wealth of Oil money and want to convert it into real estate and infrastructure,
Where else you will get a worker who will work at a Salary of 600 Riyals (hardly 7000 I.Rs.) per month?
That too 12 hours a day shift.

As far as riots are concerned, who the hell will riot when they know that even NOT covering your wife's head with a headscarf will lead to arrest and deportation to your original country.
Is this the same thing in our country?

[ravage]

Re: Indian Democracy!

Not untrue.

You are giving an example of Gulf countries expat population, without even attemting to know some basic facts.

So, let's dissect this myth called "population" of Indian expats in Gulf which is often used in someway to prove a point.

Firstly vast majority of them are just "workers" on a work-visa----

(1) NOT A CITIZEN.

(2) NOT a Human being who can even Voice their Opinion about their sufferrings

(3) NOT a Human being who can Vote (if at all their election exists)

(4) NOT a human being who can Purchase a land and be an Owner

The above is the biggest difference which makes Gulf expats completely different than population of various religious/linguistic/ethnic population we have in Indian subcontinent.

I would say that you should not look at USA or European/Canadian expats and compare them in the same line with Gulf expats.

The difference between these two is as clear as sky in Gulf, any expat living in Gulf and USA will agree with this.

Having said that you will wonder why then Gulf countries so called Sheikhs are so much interested in hiring workers from India, Nepal, Pakitsan Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

reason is simple, they have got temporary wealth of Oil money and want to convert it into real estate and infrastructure, Where else you will get a worker who will work at a Salary of 600 Riyals (hardly 7000 I.Rs.) per month? That too 12 hours a day shift.

Nobody is saying that labour laws in the gulf are great. Talk of voting rights in countries that are kingships is stupid to begin with. Some gulf countries have right of ownership (UAE, Oman, Bahrain I know for example)

You made a claim about the safety of minorities. Clearly on the basis of history, and the number of times minorities have been absolutely massacred by the majority in India, minorities are much safer in a lot of Muslim countries compared to a Hindu country.

Regardless of what we do to each other, you'd be hard pressed to find an incident in modern times where Hindus were killed in any Muslim country (including Pakistan) at the scale that happens routinely (and that is the key word) in India, usually at the hands of Hindus.

You spoke of Pakistan, the condition of minorities in Pakistan isnt great, but you cannot find a single occasion where a religious minority was killed en-masse at a scale that happened multiple times in India in the short amount of time since partition. There are bombings and militarization, mostly within the majority Muslims, but the sum of that over decades is one day of one of those communal bloodbaths.

[quote]

As far as riots are concerned, who the hell will riot when they know that even NOT covering your wife's head with a headscarf will lead to arrest and deportation to your original country.
Is this the same thing in our country?
[/QUOTE]

Once again, you made a claim about the safety of minorities. Im not talking about Hindus rioting in the Gulf, but whether periodically the hosts rise up, and start killing the minorities.

Between mass rape, murder and mandatory headscarves I'd go for the latter.

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: Indian Democracy!

^^ Your criticism of Muslim countries is legitimate because that is due to their stupidity

but you cannot write India off that list.

this summarizes it well. So what's the big arguement once this is realised? sad...this is what religions have become - grounds for viloence and arguements and very little else.

[vineshvk]

Re: Indian Democracy!

Nobody is saying that labour laws in the gulf are great. Talk of voting rights in countries that are kingships is stupid to begin with. Some gulf countries have right of ownership (UAE, Oman, Bahrain I know for example)

You made a claim about the safety of minorities. Clearly on the basis of history, and the number of times minorities have been absolutely massacred by the majority in India, minorities are much safer in a lot of Muslim countries compared to a Hindu country.

Regardless of what we do to each other, you'd be hard pressed to find an incident in modern times where Hindus were killed in any Muslim country (including Pakistan) at the scale that happens routinely (and that is the key word) in India, usually at the hands of Hindus.

You spoke of Pakistan, the condition of minorities in Pakistan isnt great, but you cannot find a single occasion where a religious minority was killed en-masse at a scale that happened multiple times in India in the short amount of time since partition. There are bombings and militarization, mostly within the majority Muslims, but the sum of that over decades is one day of one of those communal bloodbaths.

Once again, you made a claim about the safety of minorities. Im not talking about Hindus rioting in the Gulf, but whether periodically the hosts rise up, and start killing the minorities.

** Between mass rape, murder and mandatory headscarves I'd go for the latter.**

Obviously 130 millons think otherwise or they must be dumb.:)

[mercenary2k]

Re: Indian Democracy!

^^ or are too poor to move

[vineshvk]

Re: Indian Democracy!

then as good brothers why dont pakistan help them.:). Not even from Kashmir people move.

[mercenary2k]

Re: Indian Democracy!

because we are poor too :)

[ravage]

Re: Indian Democracy!

Obviously 130 millons think otherwise or they must be dumb.:)

well, 15 million of Pakistan's population is there today because a lot of people made that decision.

the Pakistan movement's backbone was people who lived in minority status in India's provinces.

[vroom]

Re: Indian Democracy!

to continue the look into the setup of hindu mobs, last week a right wing sect gathered 30000 people for possible violence against sikhs.

[ssingh]

Re: Indian Democracy!

because we are poor too :)

no...because you are fair skinned and maaaanly:D !...why do you want 'muhajirs'??

[mercenary2k]

Re: Indian Democracy!

^^ that too but they are our brothers and if they get hurt we get hurt

[ssingh]

Re: Indian Democracy!

^^okay...:D

[vroom]

Re: Indian Democracy!

singh do you really want muslims in india?

[ssingh]

Re: Indian Democracy!

singh do you really want muslims in india?

why are you asking this?....

Besides, well yes, they are born and brought up in india!

[vroom]

Re: Indian Democracy!

but you dont mind defending their killers either do you?

you never even questioned the person on this thread who said "they started it".

are you a hypocrit, or do you believe they dont deserve all freedoms of normal citizens?

[ssingh]

Re: Indian Democracy!

but you dont mind defending their killers either do you?

you never even questioned the person on this thread who said "they started it".

are you a hypocrit, or do you believe they dont deserve all freedoms of normal citizens?

you can accuse anthing to me. I dont care if i am thrown from here. I will not question "they started it" thing. In this thread, it was YOU who first started it. Last time in this world affairs, one of my own went overboard, i could do somehthing over there.

and if you are referring the word "they", it doesn't mean as if muslims in india as non-indians(which u are referring to). it means non-hindus by matrubhumi.

[vroom]

Re: Indian Democracy!

look tell me something straight, if you have ever seen or heard about a more evil battlefield then the gujrat riots please tell let me know. i'll take the accusation back