Re: Indian Democracy!
look tell me something straight, if you have ever seen or heard about a more evil battlefield then the gujrat riots please tell let me know. i'll take the accusation back
now what does this mean?...if it i had not, then why i would have been here.
Re: Indian Democracy!
moreover, i think this guy will only keep quiet if i say, hindus are the most violent people in history(the very same hindus who keep quiet when 50000 of their convert to other faith in a day), so no point in arguiing.
Re: Indian Democracy!
moreover, i think this guy will only keep quiet if i say, hindus are the most violent people in history(the very same hindus who keep quiet when 50000 of their convert to other faith in a day), so no point in arguiing.
so what are you saying hindus are quiet about conversions? ive read contradictory reports.
Re: Indian Democracy!
The fact is, they are quiet even though it will cause uneasiness (which is quiet natural)!
Re: Indian Democracy!
Does the genocide of thousands of helpless Bengalis by the Pakistani military count or is this "blame all wrong doings on Hindus" day?
no, you cant make the genocide of thousands of helpless Bengalis by Pakistani military "count". Every thread should not automatically be reduced to what happens in India vs what happens in Pakistan.
Unless it has something to do with the content of this thread i.e. you wish to justify something, or relate something to the 1971 war, your replies will be removed. Just name-dropping Bengalies wont "count"!
Re: Indian Democracy!
That was in response to vroom's post stating "if you have ever seen or heard about a more evil battlefield then the gujrat riots please tell let me know. i'll take the accusation back"
to this I mentioned the evil wrong doing of the Pakistani army in it's killing of thousands of innocent Bengalis. I really don't think it's fair or right for you ravage to delete my post.
Re: Indian Democracy!
to this I mentioned the evil wrong doing of the Pakistani army in it's killing of thousands of innocent Bengalis. I really don't think it's fair or right for you ravage to delete my post.
And majority of those killed were Hindu bengalis.
Why even look further, take the live example of condition of Kashmiri Pandits...they are homeless in their own motherland.
Re: Indian Democracy!
Nobody is saying that labour laws in the gulf are great. Talk of voting rights in countries that are kingships is stupid to begin with. Some gulf countries have right of ownership (UAE, Oman, Bahrain I know for example)
Still, you interpreted it wrong.
What this so called "ownership" of property is all about?
Arabs are constructing many "highrise" and Luxury apartments, with practically not enough buyers from their own "Emirati", Qatari or "Bahraini" local Arab population.
The biggest and most important thing -- when an expatriate invests a "Huge" money in purchasing these "properties" he is offerred a VISA for 100 years---NOT CITIZENSHIP.
You got it?....if you think otherwise, go and telephone any state agent in Gulf and cross check.
By the way how many of these "expatriates" will be able to Purchase these "Luxury" things.
Your own Pakistani labors conditions are no different than our Indian Labors mostly from state of Kerala getting a monthly salary of pathetic 600 Riyals and trying hard to save it so as to send money to poor family back home, for feeding them in our great country!
You expect those Arabs will offer such high profile properties to laborers at low rates, damn, they don't even care to improve condition of labor camps where these laborers sleep after a hard days work.
[quote]
You made a claim about the safety of minorities. Clearly on the basis of history, and the number of times minorities have been absolutely massacred by the majority in India, minorities are much safer in a lot of Muslim countries compared to a Hindu country.
[/quote]
It's not only about statistics, it's about overall experience of Ummah.
I will again reiterate-- minorities will be safer in Muslim countries as long as their number is NOT SIGNIFICANT.
Give me an example of a Muslim countries where minorities are more than 15% of total population or in the tune of 150 millions and Ummah letting them live peacefully.
When, I say Significant, I mean it because Ummah becomes restless only when it sees a significant no. like 15%.
From 15 % during 1947 and now reduced till 2% in Pakistan, I think 2 % is negligible, only an idiot will harrass negligible sections of society.
[quote]
Regardless of what we do to each other, you'd be hard pressed to find an incident in modern times where Hindus were killed in any Muslim country (including Pakistan) at the scale that happens routinely (and that is the key word) in India, usually at the hands of Hindus.
[/quote]
It cannot be 'regardless', this is what I have been saying, your Sunni brothers of Ummah show their true colors, when they see a "significant" no. of population not belonging to their version of belief and Shias in Pakistan are an example-- Shias are Muslim too and but still face attack from radicals in your own country.
Now imagine the condition of idolater kaafir Hindus or Shiks or Buddhists if they happen to be in the same number as Shias are.
The number is imortant and 150 million Muslims in India cannot be compared with 2.5 million non-Mulsims in pakitsan.
[quote]
Once again, you made a claim about the safety of minorities. Im not talking about Hindus rioting in the Gulf, but whether periodically the hosts rise up, and start killing the minorities
[/quote]
Gulf is not an example again.
What safety when their is no right at all.
I think this "Gulf" myth should not be confused with Labor rights.
So let me give more details.
Count and tell me total no. of Temples in Gulf countries.
You will not find a single Temple in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait.
These people are not allowed to practice their faith only..."persecution" like words are irrelevant here.
First ask your Wahhabi brothers at least allow them to wear their dress and don't force head scarf, allow them to construct a temple and practice their belief, and then give example of Gulf with minorites in India. OK?
[quote]
Between mass rape, murder and mandatory headscarves I'd go for the latter
[/quote]
No you will start moaning, crying and protesting if you will NOT be allowed to go to your mosque like above examples of expats in Gulf.....mass, murder and all these examples of yours are invalid when OTHER religions does NOT exist at all.:)
Re: Indian Democracy!
well, 15 million of Pakistan's population is there today because a lot of people made that decision.
the Pakistan movement's backbone was people who lived in minority status in India's provinces.
So it wasnt like you wanted all of Indian muslims in pakistan, but those who can afford pakistan can move in. Isnt it. pakistan should change their name from islamic republic to Capitalistic republic of Pakistan. Hindus migration to India from Pakistan is continuing even today. Large scale Muslims migration to Pakistan stopped way back as 1950s.
When u had a chance, u dumped ur brothers, now you have no voice to support their plight in India. Any way the actions of Pakistan have always been against the interest of Indian muslims. We know how to take care of the extremist group in our coutry. Our democracy even if it is flawed is vibrant enough to do this.
Re: Indian Democracy!
^^ Really Hindus are migrating from Pakistan?
This is the first I have heard of this fairy tale. Please tell me more.
Re: Indian Democracy!
^^ Really Hindus are migrating from Pakistan?
This is the first I have heard of this fairy tale. Please tell me more.
u should read more than just dawn.:D
Re: Indian Democracy!
Still, you interpreted it wrong.
What this so called "ownership" of property is all about?
Arabs are constructing many "highrise" and Luxury apartments, with practically not enough buyers from their own "Emirati", Qatari or "Bahraini" local Arab population.
The biggest and most important thing -- when an expatriate invests a "Huge" money in purchasing these "properties" he is offerred a VISA for 100 years---NOT CITIZENSHIP.
You got it?....if you think otherwise, go and telephone any state agent in Gulf and cross check.
By the way how many of these "expatriates" will be able to Purchase these "Luxury" things.
Your own Pakistani labors conditions are no different than our Indian Labors mostly from state of Kerala getting a monthly salary of pathetic 600 Riyals and trying hard to save it so as to send money to poor family back home, for feeding them in our great country!
You expect those Arabs will offer such high profile properties to laborers at low rates, damn, they don't even care to improve condition of labor camps where these laborers sleep after a hard days work.
I dont expect Arabs to offer anything to laborers. I dont see how you've gone into the work conditions of laborers when talking about the SAFETY of minorities!
[quote]
It's not only about statistics, it's about overall experience of Ummah.
[/quote]
No. This thread is not about overall experience. Even your post was EXPLICITLY about SAFETY, which you've now changed to overall experience.
[quote]
I will again reiterate-- minorities will be safer in Muslim countries as long as their number is NOT SIGNIFICANT.
Give me an example of a Muslim countries where minorities are more than 15% of total population or in the tune of 150 millions and Ummah letting them live peacefully.
When, I say Significant, I mean it because Ummah becomes restless only when it sees a significant no. like 15%.
From 15 % during 1947 and now reduced till 2% in Pakistan, I think 2 % is negligible, only an idiot will harrass negligible sections of society.
I think this "Gulf" myth should not be confused with Labor rights.
So let me give more details.
Count and tell me total no. of Temples in Gulf countries.
You will not find a single Temple in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait.
These people are not allowed to practice their faith only..."persecution" like words are irrelevant here.
First ask your Wahhabi brothers at least allow them to wear their dress and don't force head scarf, allow them to construct a temple and practice their belief, and then give example of Gulf with minorites in India. OK?
[/quote]
Okay. Oman. Check stats. Overall population: 2.7 million. Expat population: 0.52 million. Indian segment ~80%. Exactly 15.5 percent of the total population. Many, many temples and Indian schools/colleges. No mandatory head scarves.
Now, given that I've shown you that a Muslim country has no history of violence against Hindus or any other minority in its history, the second largest country in the Gulf, and allows property ownership, temples, Indian schools, Hindu processions etc etc, will you take back your claim about the safety of minorities in "any Muslim country".
[quote]
It cannot be 'regardless', this is what I have been saying, your Sunni brothers of Ummah show their true colors, when they see a "significant" no. of population not belonging to their version of belief and Shias in Pakistan are an example-- Shias are Muslim too and but still face attack from radicals in your own country.
[/quote]
As I said, shias are technically not a minority. It is a difference of belief within the majority. No country in the world classifies shias in a seperate category from Muslims. Within Pakistan, legally shias are equivalent to sunnies in every single way, the issue is the system in place for the protection of minorities. Hindus and Muslims are different, legally, in India.
However even if we consider them as a minority I mentioned in my post. The death toll from decades of bombings (by criminals who generally are in hiding, not average joe neighbours killing neighbours) is equal to the death toll in ONE DAY of India's PERIODIC mass killings.
[quote]
Now imagine the condition of idolater kaafir Hindus or Shiks or Buddhists if they happen to be in the same number as Shias are.
The number is imortant and 150 million Muslims in India cannot be compared with 2.5 million non-Mulsims in pakitsan.
[/quote]
Violence is usually local (usually, even in India). Gujraat is one province, Bombay is in another. What matters is the local demographics of the rioting region. You wont see many Hindus killing Muslims in Kashmir, because theres comparatively very few of them there.
In certain areas such as interior sindh Hindus are either in significant, same numbers, or greater numbers than Muslims. Fortunately the hosts there dont periodically rise up and start killing the minority segment.
[quote]
Gulf is not an example again.
What safety when their is no right at all.
[/quote]
What does safety have to do with rights? If anything, if you are given fewer rights by the government, wouldnt you also have lesser protection from genodice by the local population? Remember, it is not the government doing the killings, it is the local population, which is what is the surprising thing. Normally genocide in other countries except extremely backward ones (in Africa for example) happens through involvement of some state machinery. In India, its people killing people in hordes, neighbours killing neighbours.
In the gulf your right, minorities have fewer rights than in India, which also means lesser protection for minorities if average arabs started getting up and killing Hindus. That just doesnt happen.
[quote]
No you will start moaning, crying and protesting if you will NOT be allowed to go to your mosque like above examples of expats in Gulf.....mass, murder and all these examples of yours are invalid when OTHER religions does NOT exist at all.:)
[/QUOTE]
Not true. In KSA at one time, shias were not allowed to have seperate mosques, and were not able to practice their religion like they wanted. That did not stop the physical violence at all.
I dont see at all how if someone doesnt have property rights or good living conditions he is somehow SAFER from genocide by the host population.
Re: Indian Democracy!
Both India and Pakistan facilitated to whatever extent they could the movement of people who wanted to move at the time of partition. However there was still a cost of uprooting yourself and starting a new life in a new country. i have relatives in India who would have made the move if they had the skills to move and work in a city.
Not true. Some of my own relatives came as late as the 60s and 70s because it took that long for them to find the means to start a new life. furthermore the migration of Muslims from India was motivated by the fact that it was the Muslims in what is now India who were the strongest force for partition. Therefore the bulk of the migration happened right after partition, because people knew before it happened that they’re gonna move.
10% of Pakistan’s population has its origins in what is India today. By any standard that is a huge number, your total Muslim segment that keeps getting massacred is 15%. Can you tell me what percent of Indian population is originally from Pakistan?
yea you know how to take care of the extremist groups. thousands killed, convict five ten people, and everything is :k:
Re: Indian Democracy!
That was in response to vroom's post stating "if you have ever seen or heard about a more evil battlefield then the gujrat riots please tell let me know. i'll take the accusation back"
to this I mentioned the evil wrong doing of the Pakistani army in it's killing of thousands of innocent Bengalis. I really don't think it's fair or right for you ravage to delete my post.
you needed to attach the context then. just dropping that in the thread derails it into a flaming war, and invites others to veer from the specific discussion and just start saying you did this you did that.
Re: Indian Democracy!
these actions are widely critisized all over the nation.
but whom are u poinint at?? look at urself. u r killing ur own muslim people in balochistan.
Re: Indian Democracy!
This and below quote dont go together.
If it was Muslims who wanted a separate country then the Muslims in India should have known that if they dont move then they would be victimization of some kind. Its a credit to the hindus that they could still maintain the secular fabric of the country which under the circumstances was a great achievement.
So the great Ummah doesnot hold for u, isnt it.? Why is then Pakistan trying to act as if they are the guardian of muslims in India. U should mind your own business.
Yes sir we know. We atleast hold a trial, what do u think you can do to rioters. Just name one democracy where rioters have been killed in mass numbers.
There is a big devision between Hindus and Muslims from time in memorial. Creation of Pakistan only added to it. So it is not easy to get over it. But in the circumstances given , India did fairly good for itself.
Re: Indian Democracy!
This and below quote dont go together. If it was Muslims who wanted a separate country then the Muslims in India should have known that if they dont move then they would be victimization of some kind. Its a credit to the hindus that they could still maintain the secular fabric of the country which under the circumstances was a great achievement.
Conversely if it were the Hindus who wanted a single country (on the basis that Muslims and Hindus can live without bloodshed) then they should have ensured that the premise of their demands bore through. It didnt did it?
[quote]
So the great Ummah doesnot hold for u, isnt it.? Why is then Pakistan trying to act as if they are the guardian of muslims in India. U should mind your own business.
[/quote]
I dont see how the Ummah came in there but Pakistan has concerns about the condition of Muslims in a lot of places, Palestine for example. Why get so touchy about it? Its not as if India, a supposedly secular country, doesnt voice concerns about what goes on in Pakistan.
[quote]
Yes sir we know. We atleast hold a trial, what do u think you can do to rioters. Just name one democracy where rioters have been killed in mass numbers.
[/quote]
Dont say that the matter has been dealt with then. the core reasons for the violence remains. the people who did the violence, most of them, remain. the conditions for that violence, remain.
[quote]
There is a big devision between Hindus and Muslims from time in memorial. Creation of Pakistan only added to it. So it is not easy to get over it. But in the circumstances given , India did fairly good for itself.
[/QUOTE]
i dont agree with that, but your entitled to your opinion.
Re: Indian Democracy!
hahaha, yeah no comparisons.:nono:
Re: Indian Democracy!
Yes sir we know. We atleast hold a trial, what do u think you can do to rioters. Just name one democracy where rioters have been killed in mass numbers. There is a big devision between Hindus and Muslims from time in memorial. Creation of Pakistan only added to it. So it is not easy to get over it. But in the circumstances given , India did fairly good for itself.
yup...islam as such has differences with every religion. and partition added to the already existing differences. Besides, the day kashmiri pundits were pushed out even by some local kashmiri muslims themselves and continuing violence against hindus in bangladesh, only has further added to the suspicions and insecurities amongst hindus (atleast to VHP and others)...they are also culpable for raking up a temple issue which is based on some mythology!...so they are also responsible for further widening those differences.
Re: Indian Democracy!
^^ and you are suppose to be a moderate hindu. tsk tsk
muslims are not safe in india