India warns Rumsfeld over F-16s

Society Military and Strategic Issues
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India warns Rumsfeld over F-16s

Mr Rumsfeld will meet the Indian prime minister on Thursday
India has warned the United States against selling F-16 fighter jets to arch-rival Pakistan.
The warning came as US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld arrived in Delhi on Wednesday for talks.

The visit is the first high-level contact between the US and India since President George W Bush’s re-election.

Last week Mr Bush discussed with Pakistan’s president the sale of up to 25 F-16s - a move Delhi says would be “negative” to US-India relations.

Sensitive stage

The BBC’s Nick Bryant in Delhi says that before Mr Rumsfeld’s arrival, India delivered an unmistakeable message that US arms supplies to Pakistan would sour relations between Delhi and Washington.

The message was delivered in forceful terms before the Indian parliament by Foreign Minister Natwar Singh.

The Indian message on F-16 fighters was forceful

Mr Singh said that if the deal went through, it would have a negative impact on India’s relationship with America - or its sister democracy as he described it.

Our correspondent says this seemed like a sideswipe at Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf, who came to power following a coup.

Mr Singh said the sale would have a negative impact at such a sensitive stage in slow moving peace talks between the nuclear rivals.

The US has yet to take a decision on the sale. The US Congress must weigh the move, along with sales of surveillance aircraft and anti-tank missiles.

Mr Rumsfeld is due to hold talks on Thursday with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Natwar Singh and defence counterpart, Pranab Mukherjee, during a brief visit.

He is expected to discuss the second phase of an initiative of the US government aimed at co-operation in the fields of space and nuclear technology and missile defence.

A senior US official told the AFP agency Mr Rumsfeld would also discuss Afghanistan and Iraq and would ask for India’s help in trying to end Iran’s nuclear programme.

Mr Rumsfeld has not visited India since June 2002.

What would the pro-India lobby say here?

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:biggthumb M lovin it. (ahhh... the beef mac is good)

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India wants US to give wheat in place of F-16? We had a hard enough time, disposing off that low quality gandum, what are we gonna do with more of that? Shame.

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We paid for those jets they are ours...
Besides, why should India be so afraid of a few F16's? They have the technology and money to counter the threat...

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *
We paid for those jets they are ours...
Besides, why should India be so afraid of a few F16's? They have the technology and money to counter the threat...
[/QUOTE]

Nope. The amount that Pakistan paid for the 28 jets has been returned and that account is closed.

This is all positioning by India. If we don't make a hue and cry about the F-16s today, US will feel free to sell other goodies that they feel they could dispense with.

In addition, the Pakistani Generals tend to think like Ayub Khan (1 Muslim = 10 Hindu) when they get free weapons. So it's good for peace if Pakistani Mughal aspirants are kept in check.

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Why is India whinning so much about F-16s when they have a fleet of Migs in thier backyard ?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

Nope. The amount that Pakistan paid for the 28 jets has been returned and that account is closed.

This is all positioning by India. If we don't make a hue and cry about the F-16s today, US will feel free to sell other goodies that they feel they could dispense with.

In addition, the Pakistani Generals tend to think like Ayub Khan (1 Muslim = 10 Hindu) when they get free weapons. So it's good for peace if Pakistani Mughal aspirants are kept in check.
[/QUOTE]

From what I heard, they gave us wheat...
And there is no reason now that they should deny us defnsive weapons.
As for 1 muslim=ten hindu :)
There happen to be good number of Muslims and Sikhs in the Indian arm aswell...;)
So that argument doesnt hold water...

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Talwar is correct. The full sum paid by Pakistan for the F-16s was returned in the form of an equivalent value of soya beans (which do, believe it or not, actually have an incredible amount of usage for many industrial purposes)

The F-16s that the White House is trying to sell to Pakistans will be paid for in full in future by Pakistan should the US Congress approve the sale.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *
....And there is no reason now that they [USA] should deny us defnsive weapons [F-16] . .....
[/QUOTE]

There is no such thing as "defensive weapons". A weapon is a weapon. Offensive or defensive is just a fancy talk.

US is hesitant to give Pakistan this stuff because we Pakistanis are used to "lose talk" and "grandiose actions". What we did in 65 Kashmir or later in Kargil was stupid the way we did it. We didn't think it through and prepare ourselves for eventual outcome.

65, we were beating the crap of Bharati defenses while remaining aloof about our "soft belly" in Punjab and Sindh. When Bharat did come to Lahore, Major Bhatti's tiny unit had to scarify themselves to save the border. Sure the soldiers are prepared to die, but nobody should ignore the planning blunders.

Kargil, we did a grandiose action by putting Muj in wintry snowy positions. But we are wondrously forgetful of Bharati Airforce and it's laser guided bombs.

Nuke explosions, we did with grand show shaw, while neglecting the "economic fallout". Thus we did the most stupid thing by clamping down on $$ withdrawal.

If we want Americans to give us F-16 and other stuff, we have to show ourselves as credible and predictable. Even now I see the stupendous posts that talk about sending 100 F-16 to Bharat for 1 strike attack.

First we don't have 100 F-16, and if we talk "bakwaas" loose like this, our friends in US Congress will have hard time defending Pakistan.

So my dear patriots, please quit doing Maula Jaat Barraks (lose talk) and the world will reward you. I guarantee that!

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Talwar is correct. The full sum paid by Pakistan for the F-16s was returned in the form of an equivalent value of soya beans (which do, believe it or not, actually have an incredible amount of usage for many industrial purposes)

The F-16s that the White House is trying to sell to Pakistans will be paid for in full in future by Pakistan should the US Congress approve the sale.
[/QUOTE]

Pretty crappy deal...
As compensation, India should get connolla corn oil for it defense purachases.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

There is no such thing as "defensive weapons". A weapon is a weapon. Offensive or defensive is just a fancy talk.

US is hesitant to give Pakistan this stuff because we Pakistanis are used to "lose talk" and "grandiose actions". What we did in 65 Kashmir or later in Kargil was stupid the way we did it. We didn't think it through and prepare ourselves for eventual outcome.

65, we were beating the crap of Bharati defenses while remaining aloof about our "soft belly" in Punjab and Sindh. When Bharat did come to Lahore, Major Bhatti's tiny unit had to scarify themselves to save the border. Sure the soldiers are prepared to die, but nobody should ignore the planning blunders.

Kargil, we did a grandiose action by putting Muj in wintry snowy positions. But we are wondrously forgetful of Bharati Airforce and it's laser guided bombs.

Nuke explosions, we did with grand show shaw, while neglecting the "economic fallout". Thus we did the most stupid thing by clamping down on $$ withdrawal.

If we want Americans to give us F-16 and other stuff, we have to show ourselves as credible and predictable. Even now I see the stupendous posts that talk about sending 100 F-16 to Bharat for 1 strike attack.

First we don't have 100 F-16, and if we talk "bakwaas" loose like this, our friends in US Congress will have hard time defending Pakistan.

So my dear patriots, please quit doing Maula Jaat Barraks (lose talk) and the world will reward you. I guarantee that!
[/QUOTE]

Well, if thats the case then we should be paid in full, not given some stupid beans... Thats like you paying for a computer and when its not delivered they send you the equivelent amount of shoe laces or something... Useful, yes, what we wanted no..

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Patriot, I understand your feeling of being cheated. If you or I were to buy a computer from a corner store, and something goes wrong. They probably will give you a free upgrade or some other gift. The money at stake is relatively small and the whole supply chain system is different.

Unfortunately the simplistic approach of shoe laces doesn’t work for multi million $$ large defense contracts.

I realize that no explanation could ever satisfy everyone on this board. I guess it is time to move on to some other thread.

In case people haven’t checked out, the following link should give an interesting history of the F-16 saga.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *

Well, if thats the case then we should be paid in full, not given some stupid beans... Thats like you paying for a computer and when its not delivered they send you the equivelent amount of shoe laces or something... Useful, yes, what we wanted no..
[/QUOTE]

You are conveniently forgetting that during the 1980s, the US gave Pakistan close to $6 billion worth of goodies.

They had laws that said they could not give aid to those who build nukes. You lied and did the same but still got billlion. So why whine when they dumped you after your utility was over?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
the US gave Pakistan close to $6 billion worth of goodies.
[/QUOTE]
Whats the deal with "give"? Was it free? Nothing in life is free, as I am sure you know.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Whats the deal with "give"? Was it free? Nothing in life is free, as I am sure you know.
[/QUOTE]

Sure, but Pakistan came out the better in the bargain because the US was willing to pay a lot more for Pakistan's services that what they would have otherwise been worth, given the former's need to defeat the Soviets.

Well before it ended, both sides knew if it was a marriage or just a roll in the hay, so why should Pakistan complain? You got nukes developed and billions in money.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
..... So why whine when they [US] dumped you after your utility was over?
[/QUOTE]

Typical Lallu Parsad crap again!

Who is doing the whining now. Don't give these F-Shikshteen (16) to those Pakistanis.

Please Rummie (Rumsfeld), I'll do Kathak naach (dance) and then some. Please Rummie, don't give those F-Shikshteen to those big bad Pakistanis.

The chief whiner of whinistan aka Biharistan the basket case comes over a Pakistani board and accuses us. Damn whiners.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

You are conveniently forgetting that during the 1980s, the US gave Pakistan close to $6 billion worth of goodies.

They had laws that said they could not give aid to those who build nukes. You lied and did the same but still got billlion. So why whine when they dumped you after your utility was over?
[/QUOTE]

Talwar bhai, you certinly do sound bitter:) Im not sure if I blame you, it sucks to be the jealous sibling... Maybe if India had been a little MORE jubilent in their gift of military bases and intelligence post 911 America might pay you a bit more attention, hmmm?! By the way, where did India get all its goodies? Was India's entire inventory indigenous?
They gave us weapons to serve their own purposes.
And the law you refer to is a hypocritical piece of vomit, that has no worth even in the eyes of the US.
For example, Israel just hapens to have a nuke, and yet no one bnefits more from America genorosity then they? How do you explain that.
And Israel has had nukes long before those laws went out of fashion...
A deal is a deal, they accepted the payment, the delivery was on its way, and suddenly nuke technology becomes an issue? What happened when they made the deal in the first place did the nuke program start over night? No one of any sanity would thnk this was anything more then a great big con.. Complete injustice.
And no one is whinning saab jee, and by the way, its very unbecoming of you to say that, I mean you never fail to remind us that you are afterall and Indian. Anyways, now if India had been cheated in this way, being as proud as your nation is, Americans would be lucky to have their country even appearing on Indian maps...

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Whats the deal with "give"? Was it free? Nothing in life is free, as I am sure you know.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly, its as though they were all gifts... Damn the US is generous.
Funny, for some reason India choose not to benefit... Wonder why. hmmm

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so all said and done.. What are the chances of actually getting the planes?

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Talwar: *
**1 Muslim = 10 Hindu*
[/QUOTE]

Is this why there are fewer Muslims in Indian Army than Hindus?

Does this mean the above adage, i.e. 1 Muslim = 10 Hindus is correct?