India warns Rumsfeld over F-16s

Society Military and Strategic Issues
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Pakistan might want to get few F16 to compensate for its ageing Flying falcons squadron. But over all it seems that Pakistan already has opted for another MS Fighter (US) - Rafael Dessault brand or any thing else but F16s.

The reason is quite simple and true to the present Pak policy.

No more US black mail for not supplying f16 ammo/upgrades/parts in any future eventualities,
so the question of Hindustan’s whining is quite expected and in line to their pathetic way of seeing the regional power balance

Pakistan ZindaBad :jhanda:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *
.....For example, Israel just hapens to have a nuke, and yet no one bnefits more from America genorosity then they? How do you explain that. ........
[/QUOTE]

Baba! you say you live in NY and yet show such an ignorance about US policies. Is that because you spend too much time with NY cabbies or the local mosque Maulvies?

Pakistani patriots love to jump on Israel at the first chance. This is merely a stupid thing to do. I'll give you two examples from purely external point of view (for a moment ignoring the neo cons etc.).

1. Israelis destroy nuke facilities of anti-Amerikans. Example: Iraq
Pakistanis help anti-Amerikans build nukes. Examples: Iran, Libya

I tell you what, you use F-16 to destroy Iranian nukes and Americans will give you an aircraft carrier and not just few planes.

**2. In Gulf War-1, Sad-Damn lobs missiles on Tel Aviv. USA asks not to respond, and Israelis complied.

Had it been Islamabad being attacked with Bharati missiles, and USA had asked not to respond, What would Pakistanis say? **

In fact Clinton begged Pakistan not to respond to Bharati nuke tests. We shoved the thingy anyway and wrecked our economy in the process.

**In Gulf War-1, we had brigade strength of Pak-army eating aloo-naans (stuffed bread) in Saudi. Our Generalissimo Aslam Beg got so afraid of 10 foot tall Saddamis that Pakistan was AWOL **while Egyptians, Saudis, Syrians beat the crap out 10 foot tall Saddamis.

Even now, we are so buzdil (cowards) that we refuse to face 10 foot tall insurgents and refuse to bring peace to Iraq.

So Mr. Patriot, quit ranting about Israel. Be a staunch friend like them, and you'll be treated like them. Who cares if you follow Musa, Eesa, or Mohammad. As long you support me, you are my friend, but if you ever start supporting my enemies, rest assured, I'll whoop your ar$$.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Baba! you say you live in NY and yet show such an ignorance about US policies. Is that because you spend too much time with NY cabbies or the local mosque Maulvies?

Pakistani patriots love to jump on Israel at the first chance. This is merely a stupid thing to do. I'll give you two examples from purely external point of view (for a moment ignoring the neo cons etc.).

1. Israelis destroy nuke facilities of anti-Amerikans. Example: Iraq
Pakistanis help anti-Amerikans build nukes. Examples: Iran, Libya

I tell you what, you use F-16 to destroy Iranian nukes and Americans will give you an aircraft carrier and not just few planes.

**2. In Gulf War-1, Sad-Damn lobs missiles on Tel Aviv. USA asks not to respond, and Israelis complied.

Had it been Islamabad being attacked with Bharati missiles, and USA had asked not to respond, What would Pakistanis say? **

In fact Clinton begged Pakistan not to respond to Bharati nuke tests. We shoved the thingy anyway and wrecked our economy in the process.

**In Gulf War-1, we had brigade strength of Pak-army eating aloo-naans (stuffed bread) in Saudi. Our Generalissimo Aslam Beg got so afraid of 10 foot tall Saddamis that Pakistan was AWOL **while Egyptians, Saudis, Syrians beat the crap out 10 foot tall Saddamis.

Even now, we are so buzdil (cowards) that we refuse to face 10 foot tall insurgents and refuse to bring peace to Iraq.

So Mr. Patriot, quit ranting about Israel. Be a staunch friend like them, and you'll be treated like them. Who cares if you follow Musa, Eesa, or Mohammad. As long you support me, you are my friend, but if you ever start supporting my enemies, rest assured, I'll whoop your ar$$.
[/QUOTE]

Honestly antiobl... Your getting on my nerves. You dont know sht about me or who I am so who the hell are you to call me that.
First of all, im hardly a Muslim, last time I was in a Mosque was to drive a relative who was from out of town. You obviously dont read my other posts so you would know my stance on Molvis...
And I DONT jump on Israel at every chance... But when the US policy is flawed I stand up for it. In fact, even Americans speak up when they dont agree with something. Its called freedom of speech. You would be surprised to know that even some Israelis DONT AGREE WITH iSRAEL.
Ever heard of a guy name Vanunu? He was the Israeli who exposed Israels Nuclear facility Desdemona.
I dont understand your hard on for Israel so im not gonna get into it..
Now to respond.
1. Israel destroyed Iraqs Nuke facilities... Although that still doesnt justify Israels own Nuclear facility and America ignoring it, still America is happy..
But then we here in Pakistan played a frontline roll against the SOVIET expansion into Afghanistan. We allowed the US to train the current terrorist elite in Pakistan to fight against the Soviets. We funnled weapons and money to these "mujahideens." We provided the base for Americas spy missions over Soviet airspace. We played a pivtol role in the fall of Soviet communism. Now we are a frontline state in the war on terrorism. So again were are important. We dont have to go bomb another country for Americas approval, we are important because we exist.
2. Israel only listens to America because Israel is funded by AMERICA. The entire nation wouldnt even exist if it werent for America. America is their life blood. Pakistan is a sovreign nation, we follow our own policy for the most part. In a war situation, Pakistan would have no choice but to fire its missiles because otherwise we would be over run by hordes of Indian soldiers...
And I never wanted Pakistan to go Nuclear, but we would have had to eventually. Indians could have hung the nuke card over our heads and we would be completely helpless.
Plus Nawaz Sharif had no choice, he had to under pressure from the rest of the country.
Its also better that we got the tests out of the way, since the world community has now come to terms with it.
3. I dont know what the fck your talking about here... I refuse to send Pakistan army to fight an unjust war... Egyptians can fight whoever they want, but Pakistani soldiers will never be sent to fight a battle thats not theirs. And Pakistani soldiers are definently not bozdil, we fight our own battle not other peoples (except for Waziristan unfortunately, but thats a war we should have fought long ago on our own). Thats why we can stand and fight on Siachin, can send our troops to fight in Kargil, and along the LOC if need be or anywhere else. But we choose our own battles.
Pakistan has suppoted America for most of its existance, but America hasnt always supported Pakistan, while Israel is guaranteed Americas friendship regardless of what it does... It can destroy a nation, it build all the weapons it wants, hell it can even attack american personal, and it has! But it will still have american support... But not Pakistan, Pakistan is a Americas condom. And people like you expect us to accept that.

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We have a good deal of clout aswell, we should definently speak up. America need Pakistan as much as it needs India right now. I say take the chance of offending America, atleast we know where we stand...

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *

... I refuse to send Pakistan army to fight an unjust war... Egyptians can fight whoever they want, but Pakistani soldiers will never be sent to fight a battle thats not theirs. And Pakistani soldiers are definently not bozdil, we fight our own battle not other peoples (except for Waziristan unfortunately, but thats a war we should have fought long ago on our own).

[/QUOTE]

Refuse? That must be new thing for Pak army.

We have sent our soldiers to Jordan where they kicked militants' a$$ and saved the Jordanian king.

We have sent our soldiers to Saudi-Yemeni border, where they taught a lesson to Yemenis.

Our troops in Saudi Arabia were effectively used to kill and capture anti-royal thugs.

So your refusal doesn't carry an iota of value.

Pak soldiers are brave and they can handle any situation. The problem has been with our intellectuals and some fanatic generals.

Nations’ economic and strategic borders are defended thousands of miles away at the enemy’s territories. So it is already too late when the enemy is at your border or worse yet, around your city.

Pakistan’s military has to be deployed in large numbers in the Middle East to ensure that most of the civilian contracts will go to Pakistani companies that hire Pakistani workers.

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Pakistan should simply ignore these "empty warnings" - India will always make noise on anything that benefits Pakistan (as it has been to date).

India will also make noise if Pakistan signs economic pacts with ANY country in the world.

What Pakistan should focus on is to project itself responsibly in front of the world: it needs to play its card right instead of falling victim to policies that are engineered on the basis of emotional and spontaneous moves. For example, Pakistan should further strengthen ties with Iran and Bangladesh to start with. Imagine the benefits of being able to carry out joint military exercises with the Bangla army near India's eastern border. Then we need to show the world that there are other things also on our mind except soley moaning about Kashmir. And yes, there is plenty more that should be on our mind from economic pacts to domestic economic development to fighting the scourge of foregin media in our lives, etc.

Remember, if it was upto 85% of the population of British India, we would never come into existence. And 85% of Indians on 15 August 1947 felt that Pakistan would last a maximum of 20 years!!

Also note how India swtiched from making intimidating threats to "let's talk peace" after we had rightly foregone the economic carrots offered and went ahead with 5 nuclear tests in one afternoon!

So nothing else can be expected from India. This point should already be factored as a given in the strategic equation pertaining to policy conduct and policy-making.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Refuse? That must be new thing for Pak army.

We have sent our soldiers to Jordan where they kicked militants' a$$ and saved the Jordanian king.

We have sent our soldiers to Saudi-Yemeni border, where they taught a lesson to Yemenis.

Our troops in Saudi Arabia were effectively used to kill and capture anti-royal thugs.

So your refusal doesn't carry an iota of value.

Pak soldiers are brave and they can handle any situation. The problem has been with our intellectuals and some fanatic generals.

Nations’ economic and strategic borders are defended thousands of miles away at the enemy’s territories. So it is already too late when the enemy is at your border or worse yet, around your city.

Pakistan’s military has to be deployed in large numbers in the Middle East to ensure that most of the civilian contracts will go to Pakistani companies that hire Pakistani workers.
[/QUOTE]

Bro the Pak army if it goes anywhere is there upon the request of local govts in the area. The War in Iraq is an unjust war, that had no legitimacy. It has none now.
No one in the UN supported, most countries condemn it.. Why should we be fighting a war that nly America and England feel is war to be fought? They started the war let them fight it...
And protecting economic intrests abroad.. You gotta be kidding me.
Pakistan being a devolping country, has no economic intrests abroad. When youtalk about the Pak Army giving contracts to Pakistani compaines, well first of all there arent an Pakistani companies to benefit from the incentives given, secondly, even in Pakistan tey use foreign companies for any major projects. Lastly, most Pakistanis want minor manual labor type jobs, not huge technical ones. Pakistani want to be transporters, taxi drivers, construction workers.
When ou talk about protecting economic intrests abroad, your talking about developed nations like America, which have uge multi national companies that employ thousands who can benefit diretly. And you have an economy large enough that it warrants direct involvement in foreign affairs to protect those intrests.

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the IAF has a clear advantage in both numbers and equipment. the IAF is superior to the PAF and would win any air war.

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^ Agreed.

It really will be a slap on the face of Pakistan if US listens to India and does not give Pakistan F16's.

Let's face it, US needs India more than it needs Pakistan. Believe me, in the next five years US will be saying 'Pakistan who'? Whereas, the cooperation between India and US will put the all weather relationship between China and Pakistan into a vere pale comparison.

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Today - the US needs Pakistan much more than it needs India. Much more.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
Today - the US needs Pakistan much more than it needs India. Much more.
[/QUOTE]

Aalsi and Talwar, US needs both Bharat and Pakistan to kiss and make up. Why? Because US needs them both.

This is not something new, but Bharatis dominated by lefties had never understood this "strange" USA.

Pakistanis dominated by the same lefties needed help from USA, but always remained suspicious.

Commie lefties will forever live by the conspiracy theories anyway.

It is time for both Bharat and Pakistan to grow up and quit fighting like little kids.

Kashmir is not a "patang" (kite) rolling around after a Basant bo-kata, ready to be "looted". It is a serious issue and the two should resolve it and move on with development and progress with their people.

My Niece ---- Bk in Hong Kong
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:crying:

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Re: India warns Rumsfeld over F-16s

I agree. US is using India as balance against China. US sees India as only democratic island in a sea of de-facto dictatorships, propped up governments and puppet regimes. India is nicely playing to the Americans by calling it its ‘sister democracy’. US calls India world’s biggest democracy. Both have got each other’s heads up each other’s a$$es.

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Re: India warns Rumsfeld over F-16s

By complaining about F-16's, India is trying to deflect attention from its own weapons purchases from Israel. The quality of arms India is buying from both US and Israel is far superior to a handful of F-16s that PAF and entire Pak nation is pinning its hopes on.

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Re: India warns Rumsfeld over F-16s

http://www.gupistan.com/gs/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3006724

^
What do you mean ‘playing up’? Aren’t India and US the world’s biggest democracies?

It is by very nature that any dictatorship will always be treated sub-par - they are unreliable, can be gone in a second, no consistency can be expected and there certainly can be no smooth succession plan. Don’t think there has been a case where a dictator passed on and the power transitioned smoothly. Obviously this is of great concern to India and the US - the interests have converged. When Musharaf goes, what happens if the nukes fall into the wrong hands?