India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

This is a funny thread. Somebody launches a satellite and burqa flares up! What's the issue?

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

@PegasusOnline

Look burqs,

You are essentially making certain assumptions and based upon them you are trying to prove a point. In doing so, you are forgetting certain critical points

The statement demonstrates the depth and lack thereof of your research.

Based upon your demonstratedly ignorant assumptions, you are trying to build up a case for 'helping the millions of poor, hungry Indians'. While, your 'concerns' are appreciated, the Indian space program has always faced this question of affordability, and with the small budget allocated to ISRO, it has produced excellent results.

You say that the orbit data is never released. You mean to say that ISRO launched the satellite in a precise orbital pattern without knowing what the orbit is going to be ?

While your ability to exercise by jumping to conclusions is appreciated, please try to make correct assumptions first. Peace.

Ouch ouch ouch!

I rarely get to say this in GS but I thInk Pegasus has effectively argued and with references.

I'll look forward to rejoinders of equal calibre from Burquaposhq. It's so hard to come across a non-religious debate!

[StirCrasy]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

^ oh yes! knockout punches always make an effective argument. But on your 'looking forward to' part you are wasting your time. From what I have seen of his posts, Burqasahib's purpose is never to debate but to just pass half baked ideas as historical conclusions. Particularly if it is against India but Pakistani's come in for some treatment too.

[Moonshiner]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

@mercenary2k

^^ I was reading some feedback of people on that newspaper

and I liked the reasoning of that reader

so I decided to post it here

little did I know of ssingh’s googling skills

Plagiarism is fun!

[burqaposhx]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Pegs bro!

People in this thread were all hush hush about the cost why? Because of “sensitive nature”. Israeli paper has openly printed what they paid. And you still want to sound oh so conspiratorial.

My findings as per the quoted website was $30 million actual cost. Israeli paper said they may have paid $15 mills.

If you change the numbers to prove otherwise, then everything is Kosher (literally!). Otherwise Indian taxpayers were duped into paying for launching a relatively “rich” country’s satellite.

That’s all.

P.S. Remember it is a debate and not a fight. Still some of your supporters are ready to quote some holy books here. Chill out guys. Chill out.

@PegasusOnline

Look burqs,

If a program is of a sensitive nature, you do not go about revealing it’s details, including costs to unrelated parties. You yourself quoted a link in which the cost of launch from a PSLV launcher was quoted. If Indian authorities have been so forthcoming in releasing data about the PSLV, then why did they not reveal the details in this case ? The answer is simple, and one has to try hard to ignore it.

You are essentially making certain assumptions and based upon them you are trying to prove a point. In doing so, you are forgetting certain critical points.

The fact is that an organization such as ISRO has a multi faceted space program and it generates only part of it’s revenues through space launches. In addition to space launches, ISRO also generates revenue through :

1. Leasing transponders of Communication and Remote Sensing services

For Communication ISRO has the following.

The INSAT Constellation of operating missions consists:

* INSAT-2E
* INSAT-3A
* INSAT-3B
* INSAT-3C
* INSAT-3E
* INSAT-4A 

For Remote sensing ISRO has the following.

• Cartosat - 2
• Cartosat -1
• IRS-P6
• IRS-1C
• IRS-1D
• IRS-P4

2. Building of Communication Satellites and associated software.

3. Building of Remote Sensing Satellites and associated software.

4. Key satellite subsystems.

5. Launch Services.

6. Ground Systems.

7. Testing and Lab facilities.

8. Mission Support.

9. Training, Consultancy and Allied services.

For nearly all of these services, ISRO has a diverse customer base of national and international clients. Launch services consitute just one aspect of ISRO’s entire space program, and it can easily divert the funds obtained from any one of these services to any other business, say for example the space launching business. If need be, it can ask for money from the Indian government, but that is besides the point.

Patently untrue as shown above. ISRO can easily divert the funds from other businesses to make a strong case for it’s launching capability. It need not rely heavily on Indian taxpayer money. If it does at all, the Indian tax payer will be more than happy to pay it, as this is in the overall benefit of the nation. As has been pointed out by a previous postor, the launches by ISRO are also used to validate and test new technologies for future missions, apart from placing the payload in orbit.

The statement demonstrates the depth and lack thereof of your research. First of all, you can see that as per the 2003 estimates, the launch of PSLV costed $ 9 million. Secondly, that cost was a premium cost for a difficult orbit, therefore it represents the upper limit of launch cost for a PSLV. Third and most weird assumption is that ISRO bore the entire costs of the launch, when infact ISRO was paid handsomely for this launch.

Based upon your demonstratedly ignorant assumptions, you are trying to build up a case for ‘helping the millions of poor, hungry Indians’. While, your ‘concerns’ are appreciated, the Indian space program has always faced this question of affordability, and with the small budget allocated to ISRO, it has produced excellent results.

Apart from this, as per some sources, ISRO charged $20,000+/kg for the launch of the Israeli satellite, which can easily make up for the cost of launching the PSLV.

You say that the orbit data is never released. You mean to say that ISRO launched the satellite in a precise orbital pattern without knowing what the orbit is going to be ?

Then you say that spy satellite data is never shared, when the fact is that there exist well known precedents for the same. For some information, you can read about the RADARSAT program.

And finally, as per some sources

While your ability to exercise by jumping to conclusions is appreciated, please try to make correct assumptions first. Peace.

[ssingh]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

@burqaposhx

Pegs bro!

My findings as per the quoted website was $30 million actual cost. Israeli paper said they may have paid $15 mills.

If you change the numbers to prove otherwise, then everything is Kosher (literally!). Otherwise Indian taxpayers were duped into paying for launching a relatively "rich" country's satellite.

The israeli rocket shavit launch costs 15-20million dollars as mentioned in the link i gave before from space.com . But the bharat-rakshak link you gave says 30 million dollars when both the rockets have same capability. I don't tend to believe PSLV costs so much more than shavit. But it could be possible that either bharat rakshak data is wrong or even shavit is also subdized just like PSLV(if at all it has been subsidized which is quiet likely as per my opinion and ofcourse might be with other benefits as well for the subsidy)

[burqaposhx]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

@ssingh

The israeli rocket shavit launch costs 15-20million dollars as mentioned in the link i gave before from space.com .

But the bharat-rakshak link you gave says 30 million dollars when both the rockets have same capability. I don't tend to believe PSLV costs so much more than shavit.

**But it could be possible that either bharat rakshak data is wrong or even shavit is also subdized just like PSLV(if at all it has been subsidized which is quiet likely as **per my opinion and ofcourse might be with other benefits as well for the subsidy)

Singh bro! You are right on! If Bharat Rakshak data is 'proven' wrong, then it is wrong.

[StirCrasy]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

^ as Pegasus and Kallu detailed, cost changes over time, by complexity of orbit and payload. So there's no if and but here.

Why is it so difficult for some people to admit they were wrong, particularly one that used the occasion to make fun of India's BPO workers and sought to take credit away from ISRO?

Burqa, losing a debate is alright - but don't be such a sour loser.

And next time you want to run Indians down do your home work, get some facts and make your case

[PegasusOnline]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Burqs Bro,

In the debate with you, I have quoted every single of your post, and ripped it apart piece by piece and showed your flawed reasoning. However, you fail to counter my arguments, or read the data which I have provided. If at all you are interested in debating, I challenge you to take my posts, see the data in them and show that it is factually incorrect. You also have failed to eat your words which you so pompously stated in your previous posts, words like :

@burqaposhx

Spy satellites use country specific encryption codes and target based “secret” orbits. Those codes and the orbit data are never shared (They are simply stolen, but they are never shared. Not even with the allies).

Proven BS. Read about RADARSAT, or refer to my previous post. ISRO launched the satellite in a specific orbit, and it has to bloody well know every single detail of the orbit. In any case, this is irrelevant to data sharing since ISRO would most likely get it’s data from IAI. ISRO also has it’s own radar satellite in the pipeline so any data sharing arrangement is an interim measure.

@burqaposhx

Look Pegs! You don’t have to sound so “conspiratorial” about the cost. Payload may be sensitive, but the cost in $million has nothing to do with that.

BS. You are trying to interpret my statements as being conspirational. Here are the facts, this satellite which has been launched is a military satellite which can see through adverse weather in day or night and will be used for 24x7x365 spying against targets of interest. This said, the payload is a sensitive one and the details of how much the launch actually cost the ISRO are unknown and unreleased at this point of time. If you have the sources, for this launch, and how much it costed ISRO, do share them. What we do know as of now, is how much ISRO charged for launching the satellite.

@burqaposhx

If space.com’s $15 million launch fee is correct, then Indian taxpayers funded Israel’s space program by paying their hard earned $15 million. Can you imagine how many shirts, and socks, and BPO hours would have been spent to make those $15 million?

This is BS par excellence. You here make two idiotic assumptions :

1. That the launch costed $ 15 million to ISRO.
2. That the Indian taxpayer paid the entire cost of this commercial launch.

Now, you have changed your stance. You continue to stick to year 1999 data when we actually have more updated pointed out to you in this thread. I wonder why ? Perhaps because it does not support your skewed conclusions ( not that the 1999 data did in the first place).

@burqaposhx

Yes it is a big financial loss for ISRO, and they ought to come clean with the taxpayers. And if it is too much of an expense, may be shutting down some of their programs be OK too.

BS. ISRO’s revenues have been going up ( Source ) . Read and read well,

ISRO’s commercial arm, Antrix Corporation has increased its turnover by 50 per cent this fiscal, earning almost 664 crore rupees.

ISRO has contracts for launching four small satellites for Singapore, Netherlands, Canada and Germany.

And the agency has also won a contract for making two large communications satellites for European customers.

It is not just ISRO’s hardware that is in demand, but the images taken by Indian Remote sensing satellites are much in demand in the international market.

Then you suggest that ISRO should shut down some of it’s programs ? I truly appreciate your (unintended) sense of humor.

Looking at your current post.

@burqaposhx

If you change the numbers to prove otherwise, then everything is Kosher (literally!).

You are alleging that I fudged data ? Thanks for this statement, but I would appreciate it if you prove it.

@burqaposhx

P.S. Remember it is a debate and not a fight. Still some of your supporters are ready to quote some holy books here. Chill out guys. Chill out.

You talking to me ? What is getting you so hot under the collar ? I am the one who has been providing with evidence to disprove your BS based on deliberately feigned ignorance, and all you come up with are one liners stating that you will continue to stick to your skewed line of reasoning. And you have the gall to accuse me of changing the numbers ? If there is someone who is not up for a debate, it is you.

You are unable to understand certain basic issues.

The amount which ISRO charges is different from the amount which ISRO has to invest in launching a PSLV. While we have a clear idea of how much ISRO charged for the launch of this satellite, we do not have an idea of how much it costed to ISRO for this launch. The data upon which you are relying is old and you refuse to use new data.

Next let’s take a look at the point, which you were totally unaware of. ISRO has its own commercial arm, which performs a host of activities. Just about 18% of the revenue for this commercial arm comes from space launches. Here is the source for this information. Fully 82 % of ISRO’s commercial business is non dependent on space launches. Therefore, ISRO need not rely on government subsidy to competetively place it’s space launch business.

It would be difficult to get this fact past your brain to understand this point but this is really simple and I recommend that you give it a shot. I can help you understand better, just let me know if you need some clarification regarding any issue.

Peace Burqs.

[Moonshiner]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

It is quite sad and embarrasing to see burqaposh "debate" here. No wonder a person of his "intellectual" capacity would support a dictator like Musharraf.

[PegasusOnline]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Now Now Moonshiner,

Be careful about not bringing that holy book of yours' ( whichever it might be ) out. :D

[burqaposhx]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

@PegasusOnline

.......While we have a clear idea of how much ISRO charged for the launch of this satellite, ....

Pegs Bro!

If you had a "clear idea", you didn't need to write the whole Ramayna (or 7 volumes of Harry Potter) to support your thesis.

Three equations would do: (something like this)

*---Project A's typical cost = $XXX million. *

----Party A gave $BB million, and

The burden shouldered by the poor Indian taxpayers = XXX-BB

And the answer lies somewhere between +$15 million and -$15million.

End of story.

Problem arises when someone has to tell 1000 stories to hide one. So let's not delve into the stories. OK?

[PegasusOnline]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Excellent arguments as usual burqs, bro. Keep it up, and hopefully after sometime you can be mature enough to raise the standard of your silly posts to the usually high discussion standards at Gupshup.

My long posts were an attempt to make a person of your intellectual capability understand ISRO's venture into the space launching business and it's success in the same. But, simple as it is, it seems too complicated for you to understand, and that is perfectly fine.

P.S. :

It is for everybody to see who knows what and understands things clearly. OK ? :D

It is for everybody to see who has a better sense of humor ( unintentional as it may be ). OK ? :D

[StirCrasy]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Pegasus - you have wasted enough time on this dude who refuses to admit his utter nonsense and keeps embarrassing himself. Or he actually believes he has a point, which to anyone else seems deluded.

But i do want to thank you for educating all of us in the process about ISRO, satellite launches and global interest.

Keep it up on the education front but perhaps not waste too much of your time in remedying gone cases such as bp

[burqaposhx]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

@PegasusOnline

Excellent arguments as usual burqs, bro. Keep it up, and hopefully after sometime you can be mature enough to raise the standard of your silly posts to the usually high discussion standards at Gupshup.

My long posts were an attempt to make a person of your intellectual capability understand ISRO’s venture into the space launching business and it’s success in the same. But, simple as it is, it seems too complicated for you to understand, and that is perfectly fine.

P.S. :

It is for everybody to see who knows what and understands things clearly. OK ?

It is for everybody to see who has a better sense of humor ( unintentional as it may be ). OK ?

Pegs bro! you don’t win debates by putting smilies. In fact that is a sure sign of someones desperation.

You see that I have maintained the required decorum in this debate by avoiding any personal attacks and I’ll continue doing so. You my dear have done the same until the most recent most.

Your conspiratorial balloon was busted when an earlier post clearly said the following (and I quote). I don’t know how a smart person like you missed it.

“”“”“”
Israeli government and industry sources insist that use of the Indian launcher will not involve the transfer to India of sensitive Israeli technology or know-how. “It’s a significant step forward for strategic cooperation, **but let’s not get carried away. They’re not going to be able to open up our satellite and learn our secrets,” **a defense official said.

http://www.space.com/spacenews/archi…do_111405.html

“”“”“”“”

And Pegs bro! Admit it that you got a bit carried away.

As for as polar robits are concerned, sure you may know the position where it is launched, but a few days after launch you won’t know unless you track each and every satellite (space junk) like NORAD does.

If it was a geoSynch, then offcourse everyone in the world knows the precise location of the orbit placement for the rest of the satellite’s life in space.

Anyways you understand what I am saying, and I understand how you want to show your Indian nationalism. And that’s fine by me.

[PegasusOnline]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

@burqaposhx

Pegs bro! you don't win debates by putting smilies. In fact that is a sure sign of someones desperation.

First things first, I am not here to 'win' a debate. I am here to present my side of arguments and to show how ridiculously ignorant your arguments were. I am fine as long as I get to learn something new and 'winning' or 'losing' doesn't matter to me. The smileys were a response to your consistent avoidance of argument based debates with me. Plus, chill out man, the simleys are funny and you do not have the sole monopoly on being funny.

@burqaposhx

You see that I have maintained the required decorum in this debate by avoiding any personal attacks and I'll continue doing so. You my dear have done the same until the most recent most.

Right my holy man, were you not the one who alleged for the first time that I was fudging data ? Then you my dear brother never fail to point out that 'poor' India launched the satellite of a 'rich' country. I know that India is a poorer country as compared to Israel, in terms of per capita income, but I fail to understand the relevance of this to the PSLV launch. You also continue to take digs at Indian BPO workers. First get off your high horse, and then accuse others of being personal. Your arguments and your assumptions are way too biased and funny, all I have done is to point out to the same, with arguments. You will be shown in this post, how funny your arguments were. :D

@burqaposhx

Your conspiratorial balloon was busted when an earlier post clearly said the following (and I quote).

First things first. There was nothing 'conspirational' about my post, fact of the matter is, and read for once. The payload is a sensitive one, and that is what I have pointed out at. The conspirational balloon was infact made by you, and you were the one who has been pumping air in it since your second post on this issue ( hot air mind you ! ). I can see where all that air is coming from now.

@burqaposhx

I don't know how a smart person like you missed it.

Thanks for the compliments. But, there is nothing which I missed. Missing things and data is your forte, a list of things you have missed in the past ( just so that you do not miss them in the future :) and Don't be embarrased, just accept it and move on dear brother burqs. )

1. Space launch is just 18% of ISRO's overall commercial business. ISRO can easily pull funds from the remaining 82% of it's business to internally subsidize it's launches/
2. The cost of space launches in the Indian context has reduced with time.
3. That ISRO has to bloody well know the orbital details to launch in a particular orbit.
   
4. That there are indications that the high resolution data gathered by this satellite is likely to be shared with India.
5. The fact that ISRO 's awareness of the exact orbit is independent of the fact that Israel is likely to share the satellite gathered intelligence data with India.
6. That ISRO has a similar satellite in the pipeline, making the data sharing arrangement completely irrelevant to India's all weather and day + night intelligence gathering capabilities.
7. That in a commercial launch, you assumed that the Indian taxpayer pays the full amount for launching the satellite of a different country. :D
8. Your suggestion that ISRO is going in a loss and should shut down some of it's activities, when infact it's commercial arm grew at 50% last fiscal. Frankly tell me dear brother, don't you find this freaking hilarious ! :D

Then you go on quoting another irrelevant BS:

@burqaposhx

but let's not get carried away. They're not going to be able to open up our satellite and learn our secrets," a defense official said.

When the heck did anyone here, including me, claim that India is actually going to reverse engineer this satellite ? Now you are as usual blowing up your balloons, and I am sure you will shoot them down yourself and claim grand success like you did in your previous post. :D You have consistently stated that India will not be getting satellite data, when there are infact sources which claim otherwise. The fact that India will not reverse engineer the satellite is :
1. Irrelevant to our debate.
2. Irrelevant to the fact that the data can still be sent after being processed in Israel.

@burqaposhx

As for as polar robits are concerned, sure you may know the position where it is launched, but a few days after launch you won't know unless you track each and every satellite (space junk) like NORAD does.

Again statements like this make you sound funny. First there is the issue of, why would India really need to track the satellite to obtain data from it ? That would be illegal and not required given the depth of Indo Israeli relationship. There are pointers to the fact that a legal framework has been setup for legal sharing of data. And, ISRO doesn't even need this data, as it will have it's own satellite soon, for exactly the same purpose.

Secondly, the exact orbit of the satellite is known to the launching party in advance, and sure one can deviate from the pre-known one, but the tradeoff here is that to maneuver out of the launch orbit, a satellite has to use it's onboard fuel, which signficantly reduces satellite life.

@burqaposhx

Anyways you understand what I am saying, and I understand how you want to show your Indian nationalism. And that's fine by me.

Accusing me of nationalism, when all I have done is pointed out the properly referenced facts to you, funny indeed. For your information, I can see atleast two postors here who have the same nationality as yours' but who support my point of view. Tells you something, doesn't it ?

Peace burqs.

[PegasusOnline]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

As far as the sensitive nature of this launch is concerned, read this.

IT was a launch that the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) wanted to be kept a secret. There was no prior announcement; nor were there the usual curtain-raiser trips for mediapersons. When several Telugu newspaper reporters from Sulurpet, a small town near Sriharikota in Andhra Pradesh, and this Frontline correspondent got wind of the launch and reached the launch site on January 21, they were barred from entering the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC).

The news about the “core-alone” version of ISRO’s Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) successfully putting into orbit Israel’s Tecsar satellite on that day was not announced by ISRO as is the custom.

The press release did not mention ISRO at all. The implication was that ISRO was not in the picture. At a press conference addressed later that day by ISRO Chairman G. Madhavan Nair and other top ISRO officials in Chennai, no official of IAI or MBT Space, Israel, which led the design, development and fabrication of Tecsar, was present. They were, however, earlier present at SHAR during the launch.

Madhavan Nair said, “We won the contract [for launching Tecsar] against stiff competition from many other players. The orbit we achieved will be the envy of any person in the launch service. It recognises the launch capability of ISRO on par with other leading players in the world.”

During launches in January, April and September 2007, from Sriharikota, and also during the International Astronautical Congress in Hyderabad in September 2007, ISRO top brass had dodged questions on whether ISRO was planning to launch any Israeli satellite.

According to the ISRO Chairman, Israel did not want any publicity until the launch was successful.

Peace burqs.

[burqaposhx]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

...... I [Pegs] was fudging data ? .....

Pegs bro! Who said you were fudging data? Must be a misunderstanding on your part.

Pegs can not fudge data. Not in a million years.

We may disagree on some number but that's all!

As long you post data with a reference, no one can accuse you of fudging data.

[PegasusOnline]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

[quote="“burqaposhx, post:20, topic:177953"”]

Pegs bro! Who said you were fudging data? Must be a misunderstanding on your part.

As long you post data with a reference, no one can accuse you of fudging data.
[/quote]

burqs bro !

Accusations are easy and that’s exactly what you did ! And, I do not mind your accusations because they are essentially baseless and can be easily shown to be false. However, a minor issue arises when you try to climb a high horse and accuse me of being personal and nationalistic.

Take a look at your { Jan 29th, 2008, 06:06 PM } post in which you accused me of fudging data which I am quoting here for everyone to see.

@burqaposhx

**If you change the numbers to prove otherwise, then everything is Kosher (literally!). **

Accusing me of changing numbers, eh ?

Forget about missing the obvious 8 points ( which I have mentioned in a previous post of mine), now you are starting to miss the statements which you yourself have stated.

Probably I should edit my list of 8 points which you have missed and add this statement too.

Peace burqs.

[burqaposhx]

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

......Take a look at your { Jan 29th, 2008, 06:06 PM } post in which you accused me of fudging data which I am quoting here for everyone to see. .....

Pegs bro!

You should read it as a statement and not as an accusation (unless you were afraid of being accused off).

Read it again,

It says "If you change the numbers then everything is good or kosher".

It was just a statement, that if the $30 million launch cost as stated on Bharat Rakshak website is not true, then everything is kosher.

Got it?