India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

May be true…But read everything atleast the one I highlight …It may not be such a loss to ISRO as well. It might be a calculated risk/decision even from ISRO’s side.

Israel Chooses Indian PSLV To Launch New Spy Satellite
By BARBARA OPALL-ROME & K.S. JAYARAMAN

In a controversial break from a longstanding military space policy of strategic self-reliance, Israel has decided to launch its next spy satellite aboard India’s Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) rather than its own indigenous Shavit rocket.
Officials here say Israel’s Ministry of Defense and state-owned satellite producer Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd. (IAI) are nearing conclusion with their Indian counterparts of all political and contractual agreements required for the planned October 2006 launch of the TechSAR, Israel’s first synthetic aperture radar imaging satellite. On the government-to-government level, officials said, a pre-existing bilateral accord on strategic cooperation already covers most aspects of the mission.
In a Nov. 10 interview, a Ministry of Defense source estimated the PSLV launch cost at no more than $15 million, whereas the Shavit price tag ranges from $15 million to $20 million. The estimated 260-kilogram TechSAR is slated as the exclusive payload aboard the PSLV, which will be launched from the Indian Space Research Organisation’s Satish Dhawan Space Center on the nation’s southeastern coast. If all agreements are finalized in the coming months, as expected, IAI will ship the satellite to the Indian launch site by summer.
Doron Suslik, IAI’s deputy corporate vice president for communications, declined all comment on TechSAR launch matters when contacted Nov. 11.
Reached by telephone Nov. 11, K.R. Sridharamurthy, executive director of Antrix Corp., the commercial arm of the Indian Space Research Organisation, said he was unable to comment due to the “confidential nature of the negotiations.”
Government and industry sources here conceded that Israel’s embrace of the PSLV was driven in large part by a loss of confidence in the Shavit, which has had reliability problems over the past decade. The latest Shavit failure, in September 2004, destroyed the defense ministry’s estimated $100 million Ofeq-6 electro-optical imaging satellite.
**But several Israeli officials insisted that other factors beyond risk mitigation led to the PSLV choice, including the desire to strengthen strategic cooperation with India, the defense ministry’s largest export customer. **

According to multiple sources, India has begun discussions with the defense ministry and IAI regarding a possible purchase of a clone of the TechSAR satellite to enhance New Delhi’s strategic intelligence and targeting capabilities.

Another factor influencing the PSLV decision was the defense ministry’s need to accommodate new orbital requirements for the TechSAR. In a Nov. 10 interview, an industry executive said Israel’s plans to offer TechSAR imagery to key export clients necessitated a higher-inclination orbit than the Shavit could achieve.

“It was decided fairly late in the program to make certain TechSAR footprints available to high-value export customers. And if they intended to attract customers in different parts of the world, they realized a higher inclination would help capture more imaging areas,” the executive said.

Geography and politics dictate that the Shavit rocket launch westward over the Mediterranean, meaning its payloads can only reach orbits that cover low latitudes. To provide global coverage, satellites must be operate in high-inclination orbits that take them over the poles, and that requires launching them on a northward or southward trajectory, which is not an option for Shavit.
In contrast, the Indian PSLV has no such restrictions.
Other industry experts here, however, expressed doubt that a desire for a high orbital inclination drove the PSLV decision. “The Shavit could have accommodated [the defense ministry’s] business plans, but the decision was made that we could not afford another failure,” insisted one executive.
**And while supporters of the Shavit were disappointed by the move to the Indian launcher, they insisted that the Israeli government has not forsaken its policy of space launch self-reliance and will deliver its planned Ofeq-7 into orbit using an improved version of the homegrown launcher. **
Rachek Naidel-Ashkenazi, a spokeswoman for the defense ministry, declined to discuss specific plans for the TechSAR launch. **Nevertheless, she said Israel intends to launch future military spacecraft with the Shavit. “Our policy is to preserve an independent launch capability. That has not changed,” **she said Nov. 11.
Tal Inbar, a space expert and research fellow at Israel’s Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, said that if the TechSAR is to be launched by an Indian launch vehicle, it will be an exception to rules that have governed and should continue to guide Israeli military satellite launches. “But what’s most important is the ability to deliver the payload into space successfully. So when considering that the reliability of the Israeli launcher is not so high, it is probably appropriate to launch from another vehicle,” Inbar said.
The PSLV is a four-stage rocket that combines solid and liquid propellants. Because of TechSAR’s small size relative to most PSLV payloads, it will launch on a version of the rocket that is not equipped with strap-on boosters, Israeli sources said.
Israeli government and industry sources insist that use of the Indian launcher will not involve the transfer to India of sensitive Israeli technology or know-how. “It’s a significant step forward for strategic cooperation, but let’s not get carried away. They’re not going to be able to open up our satellite and learn our secrets,” a defense official said.

http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive05/Isindo_111405.html

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Singh bro! Thanks.

If space.com’s $15 million launch fee is correct, then Indian taxpayers funded Israel’s space program by paying their hard earned $15 million. Can you imagine how many shirts, and socks, and BPO hours would have been spent to make those $15 million?

Even if we assume $3 per hour net earning for the Indian government per BPO worker, **it cost around 25 million hours of Indian IT workers **to fund an Israeli satellite launch.

Mind you that $3 per net earning for Indian government is on the high side.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Are you telling that Israel didn't spend those 15 million dollars(or a part of it atleast) and it was indian government who spend it?

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

hey burqua,

while the low value Indians are struggling to contribute the measly $3 (on the higher side) hourly to their government's coffers, can you believe what the genius Israelis were doing? Apparently they were evaluating reliability of the PSLV so that their satellite doesn't get blown up as the Shavit did.

you know these Indian coolies seem to think sewing buttons is rocket science.

Also it seems these Indians couldn't even do their arithmetic right! To pay for a $15M launch at $3 hourly, they wroked 25M hours! What does your genius tell you they did with the other $60M?

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Launch price is $30 million in 1999 dollars as per the following website.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SPACE/space-launchers-pslv.html

Even though dollar has plummeted since 1999, but we could for our discussion, freeze it at $30 million (just to be nicey nicey).

If Israel payed $15 million, then the balance was payed by Indian taxpayers.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

^ :biggthumb you tellum burqa

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

[quote="burqaposhx, post:170, topic:226514"]

Even though dollar has plummeted since 1999, but we could for our discussion, freeze it at $30 million (just to be nicey nicey).
/quote]

Rats bats and darnit! why can't facts ever support such profoundity burqua? just plain rotten I tell you.

1999 dollar was inr 42-43 range and now it has PLUMMETTED to 39-40. Let's not be too nicey nicey lest slips start showing!

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

I didn’t deny if indian government is subsidizing such launches. All i am telling is, there could be other gains as well like the things that are mentioned in the link i showed. If there is overall loss for ISRO, then they better get their acts straight.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

so M2k u r Mr.Mohammed Abdul Waheed of Riyadh???

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:BTW indian BPO ppl dont mind paying for thi launch coz its being worth it,rather than paying for the swiss bank accounts of corrupt politicians.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Singh bro! Sure we are on the same page!

Yes it is a big financial loss for ISRO, and they ought to come clean with the taxpayers. And if it is too much of an expense, may be shutting down some of their programs be OK too.

The only gain is the experience to launch a satellite and build up their resume. The problem is that the market leaders like Russia and USA will not let the business slip that easily. And then there is always a China factor. ISRO have to use Indian taxpayers money to subsidize other "rich" countries for a long time to come.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Even if it is an loss it helps in name recognition of the organization and its products. i take it as an investment, isro can do wonders and grow faster if it has some products making money, govt doesnt give isro lot of money. i would like to see more money going to isro, if initial investment can guarantee you future benefits then why not take it.
btw i am sure there is some behind the door deal with this satellite launch. either isreal will return the favor or india is returning the favor for something we dont know about.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Actually costs have been considerably reduced since 1999 bcoz of using more indigenous parts. As we look the link which burqa posted we can see

[quote]

PSLV-C6 (SSO Mission)

Flight date: 5 May 2005, 10:15AM (IST); Second Launch Pad, Satish Dhawan Space Center, SHAR, Sriharikota
Payload: 1602Kg; Cartosat-1 (IRS-P5) (1,360Kg) & HAMSAT (42.5 Kg)
Flyaway Unit Cost: Rs.75 Crore. (i.e. Rs.750 million; ~US$17.8million).
Flight sequence, result and discussion: Successful launch. Orbit: SSO 632 x 621 Km, Inclination: 97.8°

[/quote]

we can see that launch vehicle costs have been reduced to 17.8 million for the payload of 1600kgs. The israel satellite is launched using coreonly configuration and the satellite weights only 300kgs. By some estimates the launch vehicle could have costed around 10million$. The importance of this satellite launch is not only attributed to the cost but the increasing friendship between israel and india. India is launching cartosat2-2A which possess israeli SAR(synthetic aperture radar) which will take india's reconnaissance satellites to another level.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

from the link From spinning wheel to spacecraft | Domain-b.com

The launch vehicle cost of rocket is around $9 million that too with premium cost as this satellite orbit requires very less inclination with the equator which make rocket to use more fuel.

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

damn :slight_smile:

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

I go by many aliases :)

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Look burqs,

If a program is of a sensitive nature, you do not go about revealing it’s details, including costs to unrelated parties. You yourself quoted a link in which the cost of launch from a PSLV launcher was quoted. If Indian authorities have been so forthcoming in releasing data about the PSLV, then why did they not reveal the details in this case ? The answer is simple, and one has to try hard to ignore it.

You are essentially making certain assumptions and based upon them you are trying to prove a point. In doing so, you are forgetting certain critical points.

The fact is that an organization such as ISRO has a multi faceted space program and it generates only part of it’s revenues through space launches. In addition to space launches, ISRO also generates revenue through :

1. Leasing transponders of Communication and Remote Sensing services

For Communication ISRO has the following.

The INSAT Constellation of operating missions consists:

* INSAT-2E
* INSAT-3A
* INSAT-3B
* INSAT-3C
* INSAT-3E
* INSAT-4A 

For Remote sensing ISRO has the following.

  • Cartosat - 2
  • Cartosat -1
  • IRS-P6
  • IRS-1C
  • IRS-1D
  • IRS-P4

2. Building of Communication Satellites and associated software.

3. Building of Remote Sensing Satellites and associated software.

4. Key satellite subsystems.

5. Launch Services.

6. Ground Systems.

7. Testing and Lab facilities.

8. Mission Support.

9. Training, Consultancy and Allied services.

For nearly all of these services, ISRO has a diverse customer base of national and international clients. Launch services consitute just one aspect of ISRO’s entire space program, and it can easily divert the funds obtained from any one of these services to any other business, say for example the space launching business. If need be, it can ask for money from the Indian government, but that is besides the point.

Patently untrue as shown above. ISRO can easily divert the funds from other businesses to make a strong case for it’s launching capability. It need not rely heavily on Indian taxpayer money. If it does at all, the Indian tax payer will be more than happy to pay it, as this is in the overall benefit of the nation. As has been pointed out by a previous postor, the launches by ISRO are also used to validate and test new technologies for future missions, apart from placing the payload in orbit.

The statement demonstrates the depth and lack thereof of your research. First of all, you can see that as per the 2003 estimates, the launch of PSLV costed $ 9 million. Secondly, that cost was a premium cost for a difficult orbit, therefore it represents the upper limit of launch cost for a PSLV. Third and most weird assumption is that ISRO bore the entire costs of the launch, when infact ISRO was paid handsomely for this launch.

Based upon your demonstratedly ignorant assumptions, you are trying to build up a case for ‘helping the millions of poor, hungry Indians’. While, your ‘concerns’ are appreciated, the Indian space program has always faced this question of affordability, and with the small budget allocated to ISRO, it has produced excellent results.

Apart from this, as per some sources, ISRO charged $20,000+/kg for the launch of the Israeli satellite, which can easily make up for the cost of launching the PSLV.

You say that the orbit data is never released. You mean to say that ISRO launched the satellite in a precise orbital pattern without knowing what the orbit is going to be ?

Then you say that spy satellite data is never shared, when the fact is that there exist well known precedents for the same. For some information, you can read about the RADARSAT program.

And finally, as per some sources

While your ability to exercise by jumping to conclusions is appreciated, please try to make correct assumptions first. Peace.

2 Likes

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

Singh,

Damn your googling skills. :smiley:

Re: India launches Israeli Spy Satellite

^^ I was reading some feedback of people on that newspaper

and I liked the reasoning of that reader

so I decided to post it here :)

little did I know of ssingh's googling skills :(