Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
Isrelis are clever and far-sighted people. They already knew that Pakistan is a rogue state and the generals of its army can transfer nuclear techonolgy to other countries like Iran that poses a clear danger to Isreal's existence. It has nothing to do with being muslims or non-muslims. Paksitanis consider them their enemies and Paksitan has not recognized Isreal yet, so they should be not surprised if Isrelis had planned to keep Pakistan from getting nuclear weapons. I don't know what wrong the jews have done to Pakistan that its people are so filled with hate against them.
It's not the people. It's some mullahs that have drilled that hatred in the hearts of public. They know people respect them because they're a religious entity, so they make sure to get the most out of that trust and privilege. When Pakistan was formed, the Quaid's vision was that pakistan would be a state for muslims (as in muslims would be in power, and not get oppressed under a majority of a hindu state) but it would never keep anyone from practicing their religion, all were free to practice their religion(s), and live within the moral of a decent society. Even back then mullahs were against the Quaid because they saw wrong in him for smoking a pipe and wearing suits and not keeping a beard like they have. He did great service for the people, but his short life thereafter the partition never allowed time for implementation of the vision properly.
Now, having said that. Not all mullahs are bad either. the religion in itself says don't even hit anyone first, but if they attack you then teach 'em a lesson so they never threaten u again. Self-defense basically. Problem with paki ppl is they're too emotional and hot-headed, it just takes a spark to inflame them, but signs of maturity are on the horizon, which is good :)
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
Insignificant... An attack by Israel on Pakistan territory in collusion with India is a HUGE mostake...
Sorry dude, you cant support your little Zionist buddies in this one. The sooner the I*sraelis realize they cant bully every Muslim country* on the planet the better.
PP1 calm down bud! Israelis do not bully Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, or Pakistan. Here! you have most of the Muslim population covered. Israel has issues with 2 Muslim countries Syria, and Iran. So keep your views in proper perspective.
you know it is funny that some Pakistanis hate Israel so much that whatever this little country (with population less than the city of Lahore) says, we have to find issues.
I mean recently they congratulated Musharraf, and every Akram, Anwar, and Aslam (Pakistani versions of Tom, Dick, and Harry) were up in arms as why did the Israelis say "Mubarak Ho".
See my post above for analysis of info trail from RAW-to-Mossad-to-CIA-to-ISI, and figure out how Mossad destroyed Indian plans.
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
From what I read, SA in past provided Pakistan with free oil. However, now it is not free.
What I read, SA never provided free oil to Pakistan. But then, I believe SA did provide some oil (I think around 500 million dollars worth of oil per year) to Pakistan on differed payment, that lasted for few years and it started after nuclear test in 1998 (I believe total oil that Pakistan got this way over few years was around 2 billion dollars worth). The reason was that, Pakistan did not had enough dollars to pay for oil imports at that time and sanctions due to nuclear test meant more trouble for Pakistan. Anyhow (what I learned), in return SA forced Pakistan to release NS from prison and since at that time Pakistan was getting oil on differed payment, with little reserves and with chance of getting bankruptcy, Pakistan obliged SA request. Nevertheless, oil was not free but Pakistan was to pay for them oil, and I believe that Pakistan with over 16 billion dollars reserve today, must have paid for those oil already.
Else, what I know, no Arab countries (apart from I believe Libya during Bhutto era) have given money to Pakistan. SA help to Pakistan is mostly in the form of charity that goes to Madrassas and Mosques (especially those Madrassas and Mosques that dance on Saudi tune and many of them spread hate and division in Pakistan).
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak…
I think that there is some spin in this news. What I read (and it was in British newspaper) that Israel and India together wanted to bomb Pakistan nuclear facilities (in early 80s). Plan was that Israel would use Israeli pilots and aircrafts but India would provide facilities and airports. Later India got worried of the consequence, as India believed that after bombing Pakistan nuclear facilities, regardless of it being successful or not, Pakistan would not sit quite and would retaliate by bombing Indian nuclear facilities. Many Indian nuclear facilities are near population centers and thus bombing in retaliation by Pakistan would have meant very high expected damage to India. Thus the plan failed. There was nothing about American tipping off Pakistan or that Pakistan threatened India.
Obviously, threatening India would have made no difference if India was willing to take risk of bombing Pakistan nuclear facilities (as after bombing consequence was quite obvious and that was some sort of retaliation by Pakistan on Indian nuclear facilities). As for American tipping off Pakistan, it would have made Pakistan more prepared, but I believe that Pakistan was always prepared for such eventualities the day Pakistan started their nuclear research at Kahuta (Kahuta was chosen with this in mind that any bombing attack there would be difficult, plus I believe it is well guarded by Pakistan Air Force at all time).
I think that this news presented (or represented) now is just to make Pakistanis believe that USA did something for Pakistan in past (though I read this news in British Newspaper published early 80s (but without American tipping), and thus it is not really new news).
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
Saleem, then you know nothing... I suggest you pick up the economic survey of Pakistan, and take a list at the donors, and see where MOST of the non-consortium funding in Pakistan comes from, you will be shocked...
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
PP1 calm down bud! Israelis do not bully Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, or Pakistan. Here! you have most of the Muslim population covered. Israel has issues with 2 Muslim countries Syria, and Iran. So keep your views in proper perspective.
you know it is funny that some Pakistanis hate Israel so much that whatever this little country (with population less than the city of Lahore) says, we have to find issues.
I mean recently they congratulated Musharraf, and every Akram, Anwar, and Aslam (Pakistani versions of Tom, Dick, and Harry) were up in arms as why did the Israelis say "Mubarak Ho".
See my post above for analysis of info trail from RAW-to-Mossad-to-CIA-to-ISI, and figure out how Mossad destroyed Indian plans.
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
Saleem, then you know nothing... I suggest you pick up the economic survey of Pakistan, and take a list at the donors, and see where MOST of the non-consortium funding in Pakistan comes from, you will be shocked...
Please let me know where you found such information. I would really like to change my view :). Don’t give me earthquake donor list.
You should know that a country when give aid or grant to another country, they are recorded. If aid it has to get recorded because country has to repay that back. If grant than it is also recorded, else it goes into the pocket of the corrupt politicians. So, if Saudi Arabia has given anything to Pakistan, it would be on record. For instance, use to give to Pakistan $500 a year as aid that they stopped after military takeover in 1999, but I believe it has started again.
Do not quote charities on calamity or to organizations or individuals, but grant, aid (low interest loan) to government of Pakistan for development of country. [Well, Saudi Arabia did give Pakistan aid when earthquake happened in Kashmir area, around 500 million dollars, but most of that money is loan and not grant].
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
Saleem, I dont have time to read paras and paras of the same thing over and over again, but aid can be in the form of loans, go learn some basic econ if you dont believe that, and I already told you I am not here to spoon feed you, Saudi Arabia provides substantial non-consorteum aid to Pakistan, now if you really have a disability searching the internet, I can help you find a list...
[From above report: Saudi Arabia announced SR500 million ($153 million) in grants and another SR700 ($187 million) in concessional loans. A public campaign is already underway in Saudi Arabia to collect financial and material donations, which have reached SR450 million to-date].
As from both reports: This is Saudi Arabia aid to Pakistan since 2000 (Note: It is all related to earthquake recovery … Promise was of $573 million dollars, out of that $153 million dollars (SR 500 million SR) is given as grants, $187 million is soft is loan … and rest would come from public donations out of that until the report SR 450 ($120 million dollars) out of expected SR 875 million ($233 million was collected).
Here is what Saudi Arabia gave to other countries (according to this site):
**Foreign Aid: **Saudi Arabia gives aid to less affluent nations, primarily Arab and other Muslim states. In 1974 a royal decree established the Saudi Fund for Development (SFD), which provides grants and loans to developing countries. Specifically, the SFD supports the export of non-crude-oil commodities by providing the financing to get such operations underway. According to the Saudi government, 68 different nations have been party to 369 SFD loan agreements. Saudi officials also claim that assistance to poor countries has at times reached as high as 6 percent of Saudi Arabia’s gross national product and that the country has given more than US$20 million to developing Islamic countries in the past 15 years.
Not surprisingly, Saudi Arabia has given more generously during times of high oil revenues. Since 2000, Saudi officials have earmarked the following aid packages: Palestine (US$307 million), Iraq (US$1 billion in loans and export guarantees, US$133 in grants), and Pakistan (US$153 million for earthquake recovery).
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
Saleem, I dont have time to read paras and paras of the same thing over and over again, but aid can be in the form of loans, go learn some basic econ if you dont believe that, and I already told you I am not here to spoon feed you, Saudi Arabia provides substantial non-consorteum aid to Pakistan, now if you really have a disability searching the internet, I can help you find a list...
Where I wrote that aid cannot be in the form of loans? Rather aids are in the form of loans and grants, and I wrote that several times in my various past posts.
As far as Pakistani loans from other countries, Most of Pakistani loans are from Western countries and world organizations (like IMF, World Bank, IDP, ADP, etc) and almost negligible from any Muslim countries (including Saudi Arabia).
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
I was born calm... :)
I see that ;)
Saleem, I dont have time to read paras and paras of the same thing over and over again, but aid can be in the form of loans, go learn some basic econ if you dont believe that, and I already told you I am not here to spoon feed you, Saudi Arabia provides substantial non-consorteum aid to Pakistan, now if you really have a disability searching the internet, I can help you find a list...
Spock Sahib,
I don't think anyone denies the due respect for saudi arabia. In fact we probably have too much respect for Arabs just because when they talk it sounds like they are reciting Quran and Hadees.
However we must put the things in perspective.
Pakistan has a budget of roughly $25 billion. Biggest contribution to this budget is form Pakistani taxpayers and Pakistani expats sending home the bacon.
The total of these two is roughly $22 billion. The rest is mostly covered by the Western loans and aid of roughly $3 billions.
Considering these numbers, Saudi assistance is relatively small as it is in the 10s of millions and not more.
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
positive aspect of saudi aid is that it has been very timely. by late 90's pak was bankrupt due to corruption as well as mismanagement under democratic rule. when pak exploded the bomb, western aid was cut off which meant that government was unable to pay for country's oil requirement. to help pak, saudi arabia supplied oil at very soft terms. without saudi assistance, people of pak would have faced much more difficulty in dealing with western sanctions after the bomb blast.
on the broader question of playing the islamic card, pak has very little option other than to go this route. pak will always be threat to indian interest and given india's size, western powers will always side with india. to counter the pro-india bloc, pak needs the help of muslim countries as well as china. unfortunately, pak's task is made difficult due to stupidity of muslim leadership which lacks the ability to protect the interests of the ummah. countries such as iran and afghanistan have often favoured india over pak even while india has been screwing muslims for example in kashmir. india has also sided with america against iran.
pak's task is made more difficult by jehadis who are bent on destroying muslim countries by dragging them into 14 century. muslims will continue to be laughing stock until we can produce leaders like jinnah who can fight the muslim cause using modern means and leaders who can implement policies which upholds the interests of all segments of societies rather than a narrow block such as clerics or feudals.
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
So there goes an "Israeli" plan thanks to these "leaks" from Mossad. Hahaha!
If you guys have any iota of knowledge about Mossad's workings, you would never expect any leaks whatsoever. I mean just see what happened to Syrian nukies few weeks ago. Israelis did the bombing, then told Syria, and then Syria said "Ouch". This is how Mossad (or any sane force) plans their missions, that the enemy comes to know about it well after they are hit.
In case you didn't know, Pakistan was fighting proxy war in Afghanistan for USA and US didn't want Pakistan to get harmed/damaged/diverted in those days.
Re: India, Israel and the 1983 conspiracy against Pak...
interesting.....but who knows what is the truth. this entire story itself could be fake. India and israel didn't have any deplomatic relations at that time. But may be RAW and mossad had established contacts.
This was my post and you said this is not true by replying the one below.
Not true. Go back to WW-II, and Israel owes big time to the sacrifices of Muslim soldiers from areas that are mostly in Pakistan now.
Fast forward to 1970, and the then Brigadier Zia ul Haq beat the crap of Yaser Arafat's militants.
Obviously there are some tall tales about Pakistani pilots fighting in Syria etc. However Pakistan never had a substantial military link with the commie leftie Arab governments like Syria, Egypt, and Iraq during any of the Arab-Israeli wars.
That means it is israel which has made pakistan as it enemy and not vice versa according to your own post.
PP1 calm down bud! Israelis do not bully Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, or Pakistan. Here! you have most of the Muslim population covered. Israel has issues with 2 Muslim countries Syria, and Iran. So keep your views in proper perspective.
*you know it is funny that some Pakistanis hate Israel so much that whatever this little country (with population less than the city of Lahore) says, we have to find issues. *
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and here you are telling that israel has issues only with 2 countries and it is not israels fault.