India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

[Med911]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

Well I beg to differ, I am a Muslim but I do not share a cultural affinity with the average Pakistani. I have met a few on my travels abroad but to me they might as well be North Korean. I share a greater cultural affinity with Christians in Goa, Jews in Thane and HIndus along the Konkan coast.

As far as religious affinity goes, I do not think that exists. I do not see Christians in India get riled up for injustices met to Christians in say Bolivia, or the Philippines.

Similarly I believe that Pakistani Sindhi's, Baluchis or Punjabi's do not share a cultural affinity with Kashmiris, even tough they may practice the same religion, and are better off looking after themselves than picking up cudgels on behalf of co-religionists elsewhere.

What Pakistan needs to do is back off a bit, accept the status quo on the LOC, get tough with terror groups operating on their soil, and in due course of time wounds will heal and India and Pakistan can have meaningful, normal relations, which is what is needed most of all.

Thats because your South Indian... Your welcome to live among your people and be happy. That has nothing to do with this issue. South Indians have as much in common with North Indians as they do with Easter Islanders. I can understand at least a few words of most North Indian languages, but SOuth indian languages are completely Martian to me.

Religious affinity among Muslims is not the same as among other religions, owing to the nature of the Islamic faith. And the fact that religion for whatever its worth, has played a central role in the creation and evolution of Pakistan means issues concerning muslims strongly resonate with Pakistanis.

That you "believe" something, doesn't make it so. The region that comprises pakistan and much of Northern India, has been linked through thousands of years of Empire, and their proximity to each other. Empires have melded these regions together. There is strong cultural link of sorts between the area that today comprise Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, and parts of India. You can see it in the Architecture, the food, the language, the traditions. Such is the nature of societies that live close to each other.

Pakistan does need to reign in extremists, but Pakistan cannot, should not and will not accept the LOC, and neither will the Kashmiri people. India can beat people over the head, but might does not make right. As far as we are concerned, India is occupying Kashmir illegally and should resolve the issue asap. Normal relations are a dream so long as Indians refuse to resolve the issue, and tries to force the status quo... Since when has "healing" ever come through the acceptance of injustice?

[mufaddal]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

Excuse me?

Did you just fall off a garbage truck?

Do you really want to go that route and let me tell you what some Indians I know/met, might as well be?

Please read the entire sentence before jumping to conclusions. It just means that cultural affinity is more with immediate neighbors rather than distant co-religionists.

[mufaddal]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

[quote="Med911, post:12, topic:278673"]

Religious affinity among Muslims is not the same as among other religions, owing to the nature of the Islamic faith.

That is incorrect. I dont see Muslims in Indonesia or Malaysia or Bosnia or the entire gulf for that matter going all 'protective' over injustices meted out to Muslims elsewhere.

Its just Pakistan, which feels it is the self appointed 'Thakedar' of Islam worldwide.

There is strong cultural link of sorts between the area that today comprise Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, and parts of India. You can see it in the Architecture, the food, the language, the traditions. Such is the nature of societies that live close to each other.

This is again incorrect, there is not much cultural affinity between the Baloch and the Kashmiri or the Sindhi and the Kashmiri, and very little between the Punjabi and the Kashmiri. Perhaps the Kashmiri's have a greater cultural affinity with Afghans, and those in POK, but definitely NOT the average Pakistani.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

Please read the entire sentence before jumping to conclusions. It just means that cultural affinity is more with immediate neighbors rather than distant co-religionists.

So cultural affinity is more between a person of Tamil Nadu and Kashmir? And no cultural affinity between Punjab and its neighboring Kashmir? great logic.

[diwana]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

Please read the entire sentence before jumping to conclusions. It just means that cultural affinity is more with immediate neighbors rather than distant co-religionists.

No it does not.

You gave example of North Korea. That is neither immediate neighbor nor a distant co-religionists. It is considered an evil country.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

The issue of Kashmir is lingering since independence, and has been a source of two wars in the region. The current troubles (in the region) began in the 70's with Afghanistan (under Daud) championing the cause of Pastunistan, a few years after Pakistan's division (independence of Bangladesh). This was the time Pakistan started interfering in Afghanistan's internal matters. Later when USSR invaded Afghanistan the policy makers were skeptical about its designs. Pakistan's ISI and CIA joined hands to stop the invaders in Afghanistan, as a result the militarization of Afghanistan and Pakistan began. The experience that Pakistan got in the Afghan war was later replicated in Kashmir.

In case if we want to ensure a peaceful South Asia, we will have to do two things:

1. Amicable solution of Kashmir issue (which is acceptable to India, Pakistan and the KASHMIRIS).

2. Pakistan, Afghanistan and India should NOT interfere in the internal matters of their neighbours under any circumstances.

The suspicions are there and they will take time to go away any time soon, but if serious steps are not taken we will keep on going around in circles.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

This is again incorrect, there is not much cultural affinity between the Baloch and the Kashmiri or the Sindhi and the Kashmiri, and very little between the Punjabi and the Kashmiri. Perhaps the Kashmiri's have a greater cultural affinity with Afghans, and those in POK, but definitely NOT the average Pakistani.

Punjab and Kashmir has had a lot of impact on each other, so much so Allama Iqbal was a Kashmiri. Lahore and Gujranwala have a big Kashmiri diaspora, in case if you dont know Nawaz Sharif himself is a Kashmiri. Having said that, a big proportion of Kashmiris want to become a part of Pakistan or go independent, very few want to remain part of India. The reason being that culturally they consider themselves more closer to Pakistan as compared to an average Indian (including Muslims).

[Med911]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

[quote="Med911, post:12, topic:278673"]

Religious affinity among Muslims is not the same as among other religions, owing to the nature of the Islamic faith.

That is incorrect. I dont see Muslims in Indonesia or Malaysia or Bosnia or the entire gulf for that matter going all 'protective' over injustices meted out to Muslims elsewhere.

Its just Pakistan, which feels it is the self appointed 'Thakedar' of Islam worldwide.

There is strong cultural link of sorts between the area that today comprise Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, and parts of India. You can see it in the Architecture, the food, the language, the traditions. Such is the nature of societies that live close to each other.

This is again incorrect, there is not much cultural affinity between the Baloch and the Kashmiri or the Sindhi and the Kashmiri, and very little between the Punjabi and the Kashmiri. Perhaps the Kashmiri's have a greater cultural affinity with Afghans, and those in POK, but definitely NOT the average Pakistani.

Your posts raise more questions then answers. You dont seem to have thought your answer out.

What is all "protective" mean? How should they become all "protective." How would protective Indonesians behave?

How do Pakistanis in your opinion demonstrate this "thekadari"? Can you give me some examples of Pakistanis exerting this thekadari over Islam in the global setting?

Can you prove to me there is no cultural connection between people in those regions you mentioned? Have you ever traveled in those areas? Can you explain to me how geographic proximity, has NOT created cultural similarity despite generations of cultural exchange between these closely linked societies? How empires that overlapped these regions over a millennia still managed to leave these societies isolated and completely alien to one another?

[Med911]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

[quote="Med911, post:12, topic:278673"]

Religious affinity among Muslims is not the same as among other religions, owing to the nature of the Islamic faith.

That is incorrect. I dont see Muslims in Indonesia or Malaysia or Bosnia or the entire gulf for that matter going all 'protective' over injustices meted out to Muslims elsewhere.

Its just Pakistan, which feels it is the self appointed 'Thakedar' of Islam worldwide.

There is strong cultural link of sorts between the area that today comprise Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, and parts of India. You can see it in the Architecture, the food, the language, the traditions. Such is the nature of societies that live close to each other.

This is again incorrect, there is not much cultural affinity between the Baloch and the Kashmiri or the Sindhi and the Kashmiri, and very little between the Punjabi and the Kashmiri. Perhaps the Kashmiri's have a greater cultural affinity with Afghans, and those in POK, but definitely NOT the average Pakistani.

Mr Mufaddi, I dont think you could have ever made such statements, if you had ever looked at an actual map of the area.

[Med911]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

Please read the entire sentence before jumping to conclusions. It just means that cultural affinity is more with immediate neighbors rather than distant co-religionists.

Lol.. Are u kidding me... First you say Pakistanis have nothing in common with their immediate neighbor (the Kashmiris), then you say immediate neighbors share more in common then co-religionists, but we Pakistanis are not only neighbors with Kashmiris, we are also co-religionists, yet according to you we have nothing in common with them?!?!? Then you contradict yourself again by saying that Kashmiris have more in common with Afghans, who arent even there immediate neighbors then they do with Pakistanis who ARE there immediate neighbors... Figure out what you want to say before you post please.

[Med911]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

So cultural affinity is more between a person of Tamil Nadu and Kashmir? And no cultural affinity between Punjab and its neighboring Kashmir? great logic.

"Logic" is far to generous a term... :)

[Southie]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

You want to step outside?

[Ali_Syed]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

Lol.. Are u kidding me... First you say Pakistanis have nothing in common with their immediate neighbor (the Kashmiris), then you say immediate neighbors share more in common then co-religionists, but we Pakistanis are not only neighbors with Kashmiris, we are also co-religionists, yet according to you we have nothing in common with them?!?!? Then you contradict yourself again by saying that Kashmiris have more in common with Afghans, who arent even there immediate neighbors then they do with Pakistanis who ARE there immediate neighbors... Figure out what you want to say before you post please.

For Kashmiris their next door neighbour is Punjab. Mr Mufaddil considers Kashmiris to have cultural affinity with Afghans, but leaves out Khyber Pakhtunkhwa from the equation (considering over 60 % of Afghans are Pashtuns in any case).

[the_kaur]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

I always believed that it is good that Pakistan and India are involved in kashmir disputes, the way kashmiris are, they will simply eat each other if left on their own :D

[mufaddal]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

So cultural affinity is more between a person of Tamil Nadu and Kashmir? And no cultural affinity between Punjab and its neighboring Kashmir? great logic.

Never said that. what I said was cultural affinity is more with immediate neighbours, than with distant ones. By immediate neighbors i do not necessarily mean whole countries, perhaps parts of a country might. such as parts of Punjab may have a little cultural affinity with the Kashmiris, so perhaps may the Afghans or parts of NWFP. but definitely not the whole of Pakistan, likewise India.

[mufaddal]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

So holding entire nations hostage to the likes and dislikes of a few is inherently wrong, whether in Pak or India, thats why I feel its better that the status quo is maintained and all move on

[Ali_Syed]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

@mufaddal

So holding entire nations hostage to the likes and dislikes of a few is inherently wrong, whether in Pak or India, thats why I feel its better that the status quo is maintained and all move on

the status quo is not working for the past 65 years, which means the issues that have been haunting the two countries need to be sorted out. No other way out.

[mufaddal]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

[quote="Med911, post:34, topic:278529"]

[quote="mufaddal, post:14, topic:278676"]

How do Pakistanis in your opinion demonstrate this "thekadari"? Can you give me some examples of Pakistanis exerting this thekadari over Islam in the global setting?

Every time Pakistan butts into the 'so called' plight of Indian Muslims, Pak is demonstrating its thekedari over the religion. Indian Muslims are capable of looking after themselves and do not need Pakistani to speak on their behalf.

[mufaddal]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

the status quo is not working for the past 65 years, which means the issues that have been haunting the two countries need to be sorted out. No other way out.

the stautus quo has not be accepted and thats why a proxy war is being fought, Pak through terrorists and India retailiating by possible funding through afghanistan (which was the opening post of this thread)

[Ali_Syed]

Re: India 'financed problems' for Pakistan via Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel

the stautus quo has not be accepted and thats why a proxy war is being fought, Pak through terrorists and India retailiating by possible funding through afghanistan (which was the opening post of this thread)

Its a two way street, if Pakistan has been sponsoring insurgency in Kashmir, Indians have been doing the same. India is not as innocent as the Indians try to portray...