India admits to break up of Pakistan

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

It has been LIED many times…

FIXED.

Here’s a view from the other side… the comments section is an interesting read too.

Remembering Zulfikar Ali Bhutto | Opinion

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

So when India interferes and creates troubles for Pakistan to separate an area which was never disputed, it's all good but when Pakistan does the same in Kashmir which has always been disputed from Day 1, it's called terrorism?

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

Pakistan should have made a big deal back then. But yahya was always so drunk that there is a story that they were afraid that he would tumble on top of the Moroccan Royals receiving him at the Tarmac one of those times.

As for east Pakistan, west Pakistan (Punjab and Sindh, but army and bureaucracy was majorly Punjabi with Islamabad as capital in 1971) didn't want to share power. The '56 constitution wasn't perfect, but at least it was allowing parity between wings instead of parliamentary majority like In 1970. Bottom line is that west Pakistani military establishment with opportunistic politicians were attempting an apartheid. If Pakistan ever apologizes to Bengalis, then it should for how we treated them pre 1971. Bengalis weren't angels after 1970.

Of course, let's not forget the destructive and destabilizing role Governor General Ghulam Muhammad (first Lahori ruler of Pakistan. Cheers :D) and that Mir jafar's Great grandson iskandar Mirza played by dismissing democratic and legislative govts and declaring martial laws. 1971 might not have happened if 1959 elections had taken place per the 1956 constitution.

At least, iskandar Mirza got poetic justice at the end when he wasn't allowed burial in Pakistan by another dictator in 1969, which only was solved by the shah's pity in giving him a state funeral in Tehran.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

a nationalist's thinking.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

There we go. Typical don't blame India - blame yourself. Don't point fingers at India - be ashamed of yourself. That's exactly what I mean how some people conveniently downplay the pivotal and dangerous role India - their arch enemy- played breaking up their country! It's not even the question of 'blaming' India anymore, India had openly accepted responsibility!

All countries have their fault lines and economic and political imbalances. But how many countries just fall apart like that? People who pretend to mourn the Fall of Dakha and use it as an opportunity to defame their National Institution and racially mudsling a whole ethnic group do they ever question, realise and admit that maybe the whole issue would not have gone out of hands and resulted in military catastrophe if their arch rival was not actively involved in wrecking havoc? Maybe the issue of Bangladesh would have settled with time, if their arch enemy was not constantly fueling the fire?

The so called 'introspection' ridden with agenda and one sided blame game in Pakistan over the issue of Bengladesh has achieved nothing other than furthering the divide, mistrust between civilian military institutions and creating racist, xenophobic perception against a certain ethnic group. Some Pakistanis would much rather prefer and propagate such narrative then ever admit that we too were stabbed in the game! We were also defeated according to a much larger scheme crafted by our enemies. Why should India be forgiven in the whole story?

Pakistanis are still divided and bitter because of that misplaced anger. If that so called introspection had any real use and value, Pakistan would've achieved electoral reform, devolution of power and depoliticised bureaucracy before some posters here born. Considering some people still not think these issues are important enough or worth fighting for sums up just how much such Pakistanis have learned from the Fall of Dhaka.

As with our own fault lines, Pakistan was a young country back then. Bangladesh was geographically detached and culturally very different. Of course there were going to be many problems and there were indeed. On the basis of geographical detachment and religious differences - the Irish Question went on for centuries. I am pretty certain Jinnah was all too aware of the Irish Question and the problem it had caused for a relatively peaceful and civilised British Union. But Brits were clever, they always went out of their way to ensure French and American Revolutionaries never took advantage of the Irish situation. Something that Pakistan failed to do in Bangladesh, but the lesson has been learned when it comes to guarding Balochistan and FATA.

Again, unlike Pakistanis, credit to Indians for developing zero tolerance for external proxies. They admit to all their sensitive religious, ethnic and lingual fault lines, but that doesn't mean they start rationalising, downplaying and diluting the role external powers can play in dividing their countries into another 20 more blocks.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

Yes. Balochistan and FATA!

The Baloch nationalists and racists can whine about 'Punjabi Army' all they want, but Pakistan army has refused to give them any breathing space! Progress is being made in Balochistan and FATA, and the situation can only improve if they stick to the right path.

It's alright if Injun pigeons in Pakistan belittle, defame, ridicule and malign their Pakistan army for saying Indians are playing a role in Balochistan and FATA. After Modi's admission, I don't think their should be any doubt about India's intention to sponsor terrorism in Pakistan. But they can take all the offence on behalf of their Bharat Mahaan and fight their cause, but Pakistan army knows how to go after its enemies there, and the whole country - except few attention seekers and turncoats - stand behind their army.

Not sure about self proclaimed 'bloody civilians', but Pakistan military and intelligence has certainly taken a 'not again' attitude in regards to foreign proxies destabilising the country. Any militant group that refuses to come on the negotiations table, and just want to fight the state for sake of fighting, will be dealt with iron fist! Simple as that.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

How is it a news? :konfused:

Heck they surrendered to Indian forces.

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It’s not a news. But the fact that a state openly admits to breaking up another country just highlights how they have every intention to sponsor terrorism and unrest in their neighbouring state.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

It might be trending towards a bad joke, but the people who just continue to blame Punjabis (and Pakistani Army for 1971 - and everything really) surrender remind of how Nazis perceived the 1918 German surrender. It's like Hitler made up his mind that officers who surrendered in front of the Allied forces and signed the Treaty of Versailles were Jewish, so he decided that he will turn the whole country against the Jews and blame them for every German shortcoming.

Rest of the Europeans kept saying to Hitler that just shut up and admit it that you simply got outdone by the Allied forces, but he's like no no no....Germany lost because of the Jews. It was the Jewish soldiers who surrendered and it was the Jewish leaders who signed the Treaty. Thus the German Jews shall be damned for eternity.

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^ No worries if it's Punjabi army. Let others be the slaves of the army.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

The merciless butchering of Army school kids on the day of remembrance for the Fall of Dhaka was all too symbolic

It was thoughtfully planned. Good for Pakistan Army for getting the hint.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

Can yu explain what lies??? If you think dictator was not in power in 1971, you are intoxicated. Do yu think head of Punjabi army if wanted to invite Mujib to form government, could ZAB do anything??? When Punjabi army did not want ZAB, it hanged him in a false murder case and sent his dead body to his native place. Even after 36 years of his death, millions and millions have not forgotten this. This goes back to question why even Pakistan was created???

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I am not, but ZAB was intoxicated with lust for power. Any impartial reading of history would tell us that ZAB was very close to both daddy Ayub and Yahya. It is a well-documented fact which you cannot negate. He was equally responsible with the establishment for whatever happened in East Pakistan. Bhutto was a charismatic leader and had many good qualities. However, he was not an angel and proved to be a power hungry politician through his various acts which still hurt Pakistan. Blind worship and blind hatred would not help you.

What PAKISTANI military did in East Pakistan during the war was horrific and cruel. Pakistan and military should seek forgiveness from Bangladesh and Bangladeshis. However, what Bangladeshis were angry about in the early days after creation of Pakistan had nothing to do with Punjab or Army.

They were not happy about Urdu being only national language, which Punjab or Military had nothing to do with.
They were not happy about Karachi being capital instead of Dhaka, again Punjabis or Military had nothing to do with.
They were not happy about early attempts at constitution framing, which Punjabis or Military had some influence in.
They were not happy about Industries and businesses in East Pakistan being taken over and run by Karachi based business people. Again Punjabis or military had nothing to do with it.
They were not happy about relative spending in West Pakistan versus East Pakistan. Again, in those days Punjab or Military had little influence over those.

I am sure truth would not make any difference to racist minds. So, I better stop here.

Full Disclosure: I was not born at that time but I have read several independent accounts of what happened during late 60s and early 70s.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

Can you link these so called 'independent accounts' to support your above lie? Bhutto was foreign minister in Ayub's regime but later during peak's rule of dictator he left and form PPP to fight with the dictator. He was never near to Yahya. You were not born why are you so sure that these 'independent accounts' are not unbiased and why do you want to believe them knowing that ZAB was not even in power?????

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

There were punjabi businessmen as well. I keep hearing how pashtuns and punjabis made karachi, so also admit that they screwed up in bangladesh as well. Fair is fair ! :)

But that is besides the point as labor reforms could have been done. In America, Reagan famously fired ATCs for going on strike as a matter of national security. Pakistan could've incentivize and then regulated any irregular behavior along with clamping down on unnecessary union violence which was the thing in East Pakistan.

As far as the capital goes, you forgot that Bengalis were much more pissed off when Islamabad was made the capital. It has its valid reasons, but lets not forget about it if we are airing grievances. Ultimately, all of this would be a no show if elections had taken place in 1959 or we would have accepted results in 1970 and genuine power would have been transferred. I think that it was in the 1956 constitution where 150 seats each would come from two wings and the President could be rotated between West and East Pakistan.

Heck, I would say have two prime ministers and even deputy prime ministers and then we could come together for national issues. East Pakistan could get its own central bank and local defense forces and you pretty much take care of the Six-Points. I still don't get the mental constipation that happened to unnecessarily spawn a destructive civil war.

Maybe I should have been PM and appointed Ali_syed commando as my scary defense minister. Jolie could be our shireen mazari and boretalk our opponents to comas! :D

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

Maybe there shouldnt have been a "Bengali issue" to begin with.

Blame anyone you like, but don't use them as an excuse to avoid introspection. Its a lack of introspection that is the issue. What exactly have Pakistanis learned ? Probably nothing, considering how the same people are doing the same thing all over again... Marginalizing entire segments of the population, heavy handed tactics that do nothing but alienate even more people, ignoring injustice for the sake of convenience.

If India is indeed the enemy, then we should expect that sort of behavior from them. I have yet to meet an enemy that would wish you well... So going on and on about how India is the "enemy," and how they do what is expected off an "enemy" is redundant. They played the role of the villain and Pakistan helped their cause by completely screwing up.

It would be nice if in the future, instead of shaking their collective fists at Indians, Pakistanis fix their internal issues, provide justice and security to her own citizens regalrdless of race or religion, so that India cant exploit such weaknesses.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

I have done it before. All historical accounts point to close relationship between Bhutto and military establishment. Several accounts detail how Yahya khan would make it a point to go hunting in Larkana to meet dear son of Ayub Khan. However, truth wouldn’t touch blind worshipers. (http://www.panhwar.org/Books_By_Sani/Bhutto%20a%20political%20biography.pdf)
**
“Blame can never be satisfactorily or finally apportioned to the major players in
this grisly drama, but that Bhutto, Mujibur Rahman and Yahya Khan share
responsibility there can be no doubt.” (Page 115)**

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

جناب عالی،میں ان کروڑوں پاکستانیوں میں سے ایک ہوں جن کی قسمت میں پاکستان کے ٹوٹنے کے تکلیف دہ مناظر دیکھنا لکھا تھا۔ ایک مسلماں، ایک پاکستانی، خاص طور پر ایسے پاکستانی جس کا خاندان ابھی پچیس سال پہلے آگ اور خون کا دریا عبور کرکے اس پاک دھرتی پر پہنچا تھا،مگر ابھی سانس بحال بھی نہ کرنے پایا تھا کہ سامنے ایک اور خون کا دریا تھا۔ افسوس تو یہ ہے کہ پہلی بارمذہبی منافرت سے کیا گیا مگر اس بار مارنے والا بھی اور مرنے والا بھی اسلام جیسے پر امن مذہب کا پیروکار تھا۔
قیام پاکستان سے سقوظ ڈھاکہ تک بہت سے سیاسی اقدامات ہوں گے جن کی وجہ سے دونوں حصوں میں دوریاں پیدا ہوئیں ۔ مگروہ واقعات جو اس خونی تقسیم کا سبب بنے ان میں جناب بھٹو کے کردار کو نظر انداز نہیں کیا جا سکتا۔ سیدھی سی بات تھی ملک کی اکثریت نے حکومت کرنے کے لئے عوامی لیگ کو چنا تھا۔ بغیر کسی ہچکچاہٹ کے ان کے حق تسلیم کر لینا چاہیئے تھا۔ اس سے ماضی میں مشرقی بازو سے کی گئی نا انصافیوں کا ازالہ بھی ہو جاتا۔ مگر اسے تسلیم نہ کیا گیا۔
اس کے لئے ہمارے پاس کیا جواز ہے؟
کیا مشرقی پاکستان کے لوگ دوسرے درجے کے پاکستانی تھے؟
کیا مغربی پاکستان ان کا آقا تھا اور وہ غلام تھے کہ انہیں بلا شرکت اقتدار نہیں دیا جا سکتا تھا؟
اسٹیبلشمنٹ کا کردار تو اپنی جگہ موجود تھا ہی جسے کوئی درست نہیں سمجھتا لیکن بھٹو جیسا بڑا سیاستدان اس وقت کیا کر رہا تھا۔
جنہوں نے دیکھا ہے انہیں بھول نہیں سکتا اور جنہوں نے نہیں دیکھا تو کبھی کسی لائبریری سے اس وقت کے اخبارات نکال کر دیکھ لیجئے آپ کو سیاسی قیادت کا حقیقی چہرہ نظر آ جائے گا۔
بٹھو ایک بڑا سیاستدان تھا اور معربی حصے کا بلا شرکت غیر واحد لیڈر تھا۔اس کی آواز پورے مغربی پاکستان کی اواز سمجھی جاتی تھی، اگر وہ مجیب کے حق کو تسلیم کرتا تو کس اسٹیبلشمنٹ کی مجال تھی کہ اس کی راہ روک سکتی۔
افسوس بھٹو نے اپنے اقتدارکی خواہش میں منفی کردار ادا کیا۔ ادھر ہم ادھر ہم کا نعرہ لگایا۔اسملی اجلاس میں شرکت کے لئے مغربی پاکستان سے ڈھاکہ جانے والوں کی ٹانگیں توڑنے کی دھمکی دی۔ اور پھرفوجی ایکشن پر" خدا کا شکر ہے پاکستان کو بچا لیا گیا" کا نعرہ لگایا۔
اس سے کیا ہوا۔ پاکستان کی وحدت پر یقین رکھنے والےبنگالیوں کی آواز مدھم پڑ گئی ،پاکستان کے خلاف پراپیگنڈہ کرنے والے اسے اپنے مقصد کے لئے استعمال کرنے لگے۔ اور ہر بنگالی کو یقین دلانے لگے کہ مغربی پاکستان سارے کا سارا بنگالیوں کے خلاف ہے۔ چونکہ بھٹو مغربی حصے کا نمایندہ تھا اس کی جارحانہ انداز سیاست نے سمجدار ،بنگالیوں کو خاموش رہنے پر مجبور کر دیا اور مغربی حصے سے نفرت کو عام بنگالی کے ذہن میں بھر دیا گیا۔
بھارت پاکستان کا ازلی دشمن تھا۔ اس کی ریشہ دوانیاں تو پاکستان کی پیدائش سے ہی چل رہی تھیں۔ اس نے اسے سنہرے موقعہ سمجھ کر اس سے بھرپور فایدہ اٹھایا۔ اور چشم فلک نے وہ دیکھا جس کا تصور اج بھی ذہن میں آتا ہے تو روح تک کانپ جاتی ہے۔
مگر افسوس کی بات یہ ہے کہ آدھا ملک گنوا دینے کے باوجود ہم نے کوئی سبق حاصل نہیں کیا۔
کیا کوئی سبق حاصل کیا ہے؟
انصاف اور برابری کی بنیاد پر حقوق کی منصفانہ تقسیم ، پیار محبت اور اپنائیت کی ترویج ، اپنی عزت نفس کی طرح دوسروں کی عزت کا خیال رکھنے ہی سے قومیں متحد رہ سکتی ہیں۔ یہاں کوئی کسی کا آقا نہیں ہے اور کوئی کسی کا غلام نہیں ۔ ہر بھائی کو اہمیت دینا ہو گی۔انصاف دینا ہوگا، جس سے نفرت ختم ہوگی ۔نفرت نہیں ہوگی تو دل سے سب ایک دوسرے کے ہمدرد ہوں گے۔ پیار بڑھے گا تو اتحاد و یگانگت ہوگی۔ اتحاد ہوگا تو ہم ایک قوم ہوں گے ایک ایسی قوم جسے اتحاد و محبت کے سیمنٹ نے سیسہ پلائی دیوا بنا دیا گیا ہوگا۔
اور جب ہم سیسہ پلائی دیوار کی طرح مظبوط ہوں گے تو دشمن لاکھ سر پھوڑتا رہے ہمارا کچھ نہیں بگاڑ سکے گا۔
اس کے لئے ہم سے کو اپنی اپنی ذمہ داری کا احساس کرنا ہوگا۔
فرقہ بندی ہے کہیں اور کہیں ذاتیں ہیں
کیا زمانے میں پنپنے کی یہی باتیں ہیں

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

welcome to GS and to pakistan affairs (PA) forum. Hope you will keep on posting and enriching us with your life long experiences and observations.

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Re: India admits to break up of Pakistan

See, this weak and passive mentality is the problem here. Most countries have adopted zero tolerance approach to foreign proxies that exploit internal differences (including India). They condemn it in absolute terms, whereas some Pakistanis think they are doing their country a favour by making it seem like how it is just 'expected' for enemies to wreck havoc in their country. That's not the right attitude. Every time the name India is mentioned, they think they have to mention fifty other reasons to undermine such a massively important factor, and go back to same old self pitying and obsessive and excessive auto-critiquing. Why so much defensiveness and passiveness over the issue of Indian involvement?

I'm astonished at such sad levels of insecurity that just because if the role of India in breaking up Pakistan is examined, somehow the whole narrative on Bangladesh history will change. I'm sorry I don't believe in such stuff nor I have such insecurities. History is history, and it should be written as it happened. If India played a role in breaking up Pakistan, their role needs to be identified, examined and analysed. You don't ignore such massive chunk of historical fact for some wishy washy desire for 'introspection'. You can have all sorts of introspection on how the heavy handed League of Nations sanctions 'created the German problem', but the fact is that Nazis also wanted a Second World War since day one, simply cannot be ignored. This logic of either you raise your collective fists at India or you totally undermine the damage they had caused makes no sense!

As with Bengali problem, by virtue of geographical detachment and sectarian differences, the Irish Question lasted for centuries. I fail to see how in post colonial Subcontinent with such deeply rooted cultural and socio-economic differences coupled with all anxieties of being under a fragile nation state order how Pakistan could have avoided the Bengali Problem all together. Though, that is not to say that would have never been able to sorted out or control it some extent had they avoided a war. I have no such Utopian fantasies of seeing Pakistan free of any sort of divides and differences. In all so civilised and equality packed West, you still have problems of separatist/nationalist campaigns in Catalonia, Basque, Bavaria, Sardinia, Frisia, Silesia, Latgale. I can give you 50 more examples of separatist campaigns from all over Europe. In my own backyard, we have issue of Scotland, Cornish and Welsh nationalism. So just because socio-economic, ethnic/lingua/religious exist in your country, doesn't mean you take such passive attitude towards external interference, and rationalize it. Good for Europeans countries for drawing line on cross border interference long time ago. Imagine if Brits start fanning the Catalonian movement?

Of course Pakistan hasn't learned anything from Bangladesh debacle. How many people in the country still think that stealing a electoral mandate is wrong, electoral injustice is recipe for a national scale disaster, electoral reforms are an absolute necessity and bureaucracy infested with politicized bureaucracy is a grave problem? Yes the question also applied to hypocrites who pretend to mourn East Pakistan.

The racist bickering that's going in this thread over the pathetic notion of 'Punjabi Army' is the one the many toxic legacies so called 'introspection' of Bangladeshi crises. The punching bag culture putting the whole blame of certain ethnicity and a national institution has furthered the divides and mistrust in Pakistan. Time to re-write proper History as it happened, and examine all the internal and external factors that resulted in absolute catastrophe.