inch by inch ................

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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hate to quote this but…I guess i have to!

“Pakistan was founded on hatred. She was born not of love but of hatred and grew up on hatred, on malice, on spite and hostility - Ghaffar K”

unfortunately we are proving it to be correct…

Pakistanis dont understand how big of a joke Nazraya Pakistan is for rest of the world..any ideology which is based on organized religion is not acceptable in today’s diverse world…how hard it is for us to explain to our international friends that we made pakistan because we could not live with other religions..coz we wanted a country where we could live by sharia islam…where we could implement Islamic principles…no wonder they look at us as if we are the biggest stupid on this planet!

now that does not mean i am against pakistan’s concept so to speak…i believe it was the right movement but the rationale was to protect our economic benefits…simple as that … we wud be always a minority under democratic principles with hindus in majority…and considering the hatred that developed between both communities under British rule, chances were bright that we wud have gotten rough treatment by the majority…Congress behavior after winning 1937 elections provided more fuel to this theory

but the problem is that we ran Pakistani movement on “an organized religion implementation” basis…and Mohammd Ali Jinnah who was a secular leader himself all his life blessed this notion intentionally to gain independence..he knew this is the easiest way to emotionalize Muslims and get them unified…

but once we did that, we made sure that we were born out of hatred … coz organized religion **at state level **is a cancer to any society… it divides the society to its core

and that is what are seeing in pakistan…we are chasing a baseless dream…in human history no society ever flourished based on implementation of organized religion…west became west after separation of state and church

but we told our masses to keep dreaming of an islamic state and thus gave legitimacy to these religious organizations…we inducted objective resolution in our constitution in 1949… we shunned secularism at state level right away… we wanted to kill qadyanis as early as 1954…

and with time these religious parties got into sect war with **state’s blessing **and now we are melting…inch by inch…day by day…moment by moment…until we dissolve!

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Re: inch by inch ................

very bookish.

Why don't you search on words "stabilizing friendly govt " "destabilizing hostile govt"
You might learn how many countries/societies broke under pressure in recent history.

We are not the only ones. :)

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Re: inch by inch ................

thanks Monk

you can go back to your cave now and "grow your own vegetables.''

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Re: inch by inch ................

How is Israel acceptable then?

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Re: inch by inch ................

as a matter of principle, absolutely not acceptbale ... and it is struggling too as it is born out of hatred ....

but both Pakistan and israel are practical relaties and they need to adopt a path that help them moving forward...

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Re: inch by inch ................

phoenix,

Here is short story with a lesson.
One of my cousin eloped with our driver.

Our family got frozen in that moment of insult, agony etc
My cousin did not, she raised beautiful healthy children and did her life.

dude You are not alone, when I was first exposed to Indians specially older generation, I felt the same thing, they were caught in that moment when we left.

I mean do I care how/why pakistan was made ?? or what some one was thinking in 1947 ???

I know i was born in pakistan and ITS MY COUNTRY!!!!!!!! (as long as humanity like playing country )

You could have your own learning object from such discussion with people who disapprove pak, but I learned to identify them and avoid such unrewarding discussions.

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Re: inch by inch ................

ironically i also have a story for you Monk..and that too of a cousin..damn these cousins!

this young bright guy always hated to have a rear view mirror in his car as he thought it was too much of distraction looking back especially on Pakistani roads with so much traffic... he used to say "they can always honk at me anyway if i am doing anything wrong" ....he just wanted to look forward in the front screen and drive as fast as he could....so he literally removed the rear view mirror from his car! needles to say where he ended up at the age of 24....

This is a new trend emerging in Pakistani generation...ignore history!

what we did in 1947 and how we did it is important...very important...we need to grapple with the historical mysteries that constitute our mental makeup as a nation.... those historical narratives constitute our mental representations of brands that we carry today and are the basis of our preferences and performances today....you need to look in the rear view mirror so that you can drive safely on the road that is ahead of you....sigh!

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Re: inch by inch ................

That is one simple and easy to understand analogy.

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Re: inch by inch ................

well the analogy is a little flawed because usually when it comes to the indians and pakistanis who are into history, the rear view mirror ends up being bigger than their windshield, and a tool to keep some 60-70 year old amorphous hatred still going full-steam. it is so easy to pick a fight over the two-nation theory just as readily as in 1945.

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Re: inch by inch ................

this thread is not about Indians and Pakistanis by any means! nothing to do with Indians for sure....**

this thread is all about ***32.0162° N, 71.6926° E *... which is melting day by day, inch by inch, moment by moment!!! and therefore an attempt to understand why is it melting but from a historical perspective ... because those historical narratives constitute our mental makeup as a society and are the basis of our preferences and performances today.......................................

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Re: inch by inch ................

Why do you have to bring Israel into discussion?

Why cant pakistanis discuss the idology behind creation of Pak without dragging Israel's name in it?

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Re: inch by inch ................

I didn't know that we had to follow certain criterion on what to discuss here. Oh right, no freedom of speech now which is what phoenix is advocating here. I only brought it up because phoenix said that religious states are a malaise.

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Re: inch by inch ................

Our country was formed on the basis of religion, yes. But can you answer how there were not many problems till the late 70's?

Problems arose when the great Zia ul Haq forgot the essence of Islam and started imposing religion on people. A) he was not elected and b) he planted the seeds for the problems we are facing today.

Problem is not with religion based country. Problem is how we have perceived it.

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Re: inch by inch ................

We were fine till 70s because we have secular leaders ... muslim parties tried to implement themselves but they were not fully succeeded...they had some success i.e. they got objective resolution passed in 1947...polluted minds against qadyanis by running theraki khatam nubawat in 1954 etc but they were marginalized by our secular leadership.

ayub khan was as secular as you can think of at the state level..in his personal life he was a muslim but as a leader he was secular...same is true about bhutto.

....mumtaz doltana and other political leaders especially benglai leadership were also secular in their mental make up..now when i say secular i dont mean to say they were not muslims..i am implying that they were not in favor of implementing organized religion with state patronage.

That is why pakistan was OK and a normal country..tourists used to come, investments used to be made by international investors..because both leadership and society were much more tolerant..

so islam has no credit for a tolerant Pakistan before 70s.... but whatever makes you happy and satisfied, my friend!

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Re: inch by inch …

yes zia did all those things … we know all that…he declared pakistan an Islamic state, had Islamic courts, changed syllabus…that is the thing when you try make a state a religious state

so i am asking you some very simple questions …

a) do you support a secular paksitan at state level or not?
*b) Should we call ourselves Democratic republic of pakistan or Islamic republic of Pakistan? **
c) can a hindu or christian become PM of pakistan or not?
d) should we abandon ruling that declared qadyanis non-muslims?
e) Should we kill The Federal Shariat Court (FSC) of Pakistan or not?
(FSC is a court which has the power to examine and determine whether the laws of the country comply with Shari’a law. It consists of 8 Muslim judges appointed by the President of Pakistan after consulting the Chief Justice of this Court, from amongst the serving or retired judges of the Supreme Court or a High Court or from amongst persons possessing the qualifications of judges of a High Court)
*
Can you please be specific..YES or NO to my questions… much appreciated

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Re: inch by inch ................

None of above questions and issues relate to the security and peace of Pakistan.
This is not the time to talk about these issues.

You can harp your agenda all you want PD.

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Re: inch by inch …

lets see

we have over 250,000 mosques in paksitan..most of them are unregistered spreading hatred against other sects

we have over 30,000 madrasses and many more unregistered ones acting as breeding nursery of fundamentalism

we have so many sectarian based military organizations who are killing shias, qadyanis on daily basis

we have TTP who demands implementing shariat in pakistan and has killed over 50,000 pakistanis and soliders in last 10 years

and top of that we already have Federal Shariat Courts in Pakistanwho are spreading nonsense

and most importantly our masses are one of the most radicalized who supported murder of slaman taseer…who burn people just on a doubt that he or she has insulted quran or prophet … who have no idea how to respect other religions and viewpoints…because our state polluted them in last 30 years

our education syllabus is completely polluted

Now i understand these problems cannot be resolved over-nite and it will take time … but some resolution of these issues is instrumental in ensuring pakistan gets on the right path..otherwise we will be just covering up and they will resurface after few years

but hey Diwana thinks problem is somewhere else…wah wah

diwana thinks that issues related to the security and peace of Pakistan have nothing to do with religious bigotry, lack of secularism at state level, state level patronage for an Islamic state, radicalization among masses…wah jee wah

coz diwana thinks that all these problems are produced by external agents…otherwise all is well!

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Re: inch by inch ................

So be basically drove in reverse all the time?

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Re: inch by inch …

lol

And somehow if the name of Pakistan is changed and your hated Shariah court is dismantled, syllabus changed according your Indian friends liking etc. etc.

Poof!

there will be complete peace and security in the country,
flowers will bloom everywhere instead of criminals setting up explosives,
Police and politicians will stop corruptions,
all criminals will be caught on regular basis,
everyone will become educated like PhD professors,
Economy will boom,
Electricity and clean water will be available to every citizen,
Roads will be clean, and smokeless
traffic will flow smoothly with drivers driving in one lane
etc. etc.

Essentially, Pakistan will become a nation to followed by other third world countries like India…oh wait!
India still boasts to be secular where 10 millions infant girls were murdered just because they were girls over 20 years mostly by ‘educated’ parents. (UNICEF report)…
…My bad.

Like I said you can keep harping your agendas, that is not what is needed to fix the problems.

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Re: inch by inch ................

ahhhh....you are beyond ....

oh bhai, that is exactly my point....and i have said that many times on this forum....all the problems that you mentioned (corruption, crumbling infrastructure, dirty water, lack of peace etc.) are typical third world problems...india has them all..nigeria has them, Indonesia has them, even china has them...these problems take time to solve...and obviously every effort shd be made to resolve these issues but it is a work in process effort

but the point to be noted is that despite all these problems in India, China, Nigeria and Indonesia, tourists still go to these countries...investors still coming there....these countries have huge presence on Siemens, GE, Caterpillar's annual growth play books and gameboards....the world recognizes that these problems are part of third world and want to solve them

but no one wants to come to pakistan..no tourist wants to be here..every investor has run away..every fortune 500 company has kicked pakistan out of its future plasn....hec no cricket team is coming to pak for god sake....WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

Open your brian diwana and ask this question ..why? what is so unique abt pakistan that no one wants to be here....and that unique aspect is radicalization, religious bigotry, sectarian killing, religious based terrorist organizations, crumbling state, so called islaimization, and related peace and security issues...**and if no investor wants to come here, how the hell are you going to solve all the problems that you mentioned above?

the solutions i suggested above are medium to long term to chnage the behavior of maasses but obviously state and masss need to crush these terrorist organizations in short term but there are people like you who create confusion...purposefully & intentionally!

you know my agenda by now..i want to know what is your agenda diwana?
**