Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Mazhar jee:

Quoting you once again:
** "My point is that we should consult these charts to estimate the possible & likely date and than physically see it ourselves as it was the sunnah. Because of globalization the error spreads to mammoth proportions. so the best way out is a combination of both methods and one place in whole world to observe the moon."**

Very well said. The whole point is to use the technological aids we got to better propogate the Sunnah and to better our lives. This way, we won't have divisions and the "3" Eids scenarios for our next generations.

Umer

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My dear brother Crescent_

Here's a part of your saying*:"So deviations will occur,a nd people who want to base it on calculations, would branch off. and THEY would cause divisions."*
I am not sure what you mean by referring to "people" who branch off. Here in the US, we always have problems with our Hanfi brothern as they have a tendency to see the moon a day later before everyone else has sighted it. Could you plz. explain the logic, the bullcrap of NWFP, since the year I was born for the Eid a day earlier?

Can you bring some unity among us through your ideas? I agree with your views about average Joes but brother, these average Joes have made it terrible for us to know what Islam exactly says.

These average Joes are the one who criticize Gen. Mushrraf at his face but never realize that the army general gave them so much freedom to express themselves.

As far as Ulemas are concerned, they are very respected figures(no questions about it) but the question remains the same and we need to come to a consensus for something as big as Eid and Ramadan. I'm not saying to not follow the Sunnah. My point is to get together on the table and make sure from next time, we don't have this bullcrap anymore.
I remember when I was in high school and I was taking off from school due to Eid and my dad called the registrar's office. ** He told the reason for my absence and the clerk goes,"some people celebrated yesterday"**. Imagine what my dad felt and I feel about it.
For this matter, I say again and it's extremely important for us to have unity. When we are one unit, it will take thousands of unit to bring us down. When we are divided, all you need is a needle to pop us apart.

Umer

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Cresecent i would like to have few answers over this case presented by you from http://www.studentofknowledge.com/IbrahimDremali.htm
Excerpt 1 from the paper:-
"In the early generations Muslims used the stars, moon and sun for the purpose of guidance and direction. However, they never used or depended on astronomical calculations for determining when to start any acts of worship. This was not due to any doubts in the astronomical calculation system, but due to the laws of the Shari’ah Islamiyyah (The Islamic Law) and the order of the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam

whereas in the same paper, this Hadith from Sahih Bukhari is quoted

Ibn Omar (radiy Allahu anhumma) related that Prophet Mohammed (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam)

“We are an illiterate nation that neither writes nor calculates
(i.e. using astronomical calculations). The month is either like this, or this. Meaning: Sometimes it is of twenty nine days, and sometimes it is of thirty.” [Sahih Al-Bukhari (1930)]

Q.1:are both of these statement not contradicting each other? in case of this, should’nt i or any observer give preference to something stated by the Sahih than the opinion of this learned scholar

Excerpt 2 but He still said in Surat Al-Baqarah:

[INDENT]“So whoever of you (sights the crescent on the first night of) the month, he must observe Saum (fasts)…” [Quran 2:185]

The ayah is clearly speaking about visual sighting and not calculations
whereas i here present translation of same ayat by six scholars for your referenceVerse 2:185
Yusuf Ali:

Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. God intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. Zohurul Hoque:

The month of Ramadan is the one in which the Qur-an was revealed, as a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of guidance, and the Discrimination. So, whoever among you witnesses the month he will then observe Sawm therein. But whoever is sick or on a journey, there is then the counting out of the other days. Allah desires facility for you, and He does not desire difficulty for you; and that you should complete the number, and that you may exalt Allah for His guiding you; and that perhaps you may give thanks. T. J. Irving:

The month of Ramadan is when the Quran was sent down as guidance for mankind, and with explanations for guidance, and as a Standard. Let any of you who is at home during the month, fast in it; while anyone who is ill or on a journey should [set an equal] number of other days. God wants thins to be easy for you and does not want any hardship for you, so complete the number and magnify God because He has guided you, so that you may act grateful. T.U. Hilali-M. Khan:

The month of Ramadân in which was revealed the Qur’ân, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadân i.e. is present at his home), he must observe Saum (fasts) that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number [of days which one did not observe Saum (fasts) must be made up] from other days. Allâh intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allâh * for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him.M. Pickthall:

The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur’an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful. M.H. Shakir:

The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.

Q.2: Now you can see that only one has translated in the way, while others have translated in different meanings, in any case sighting the month is different than sighting the crescent. How can you produce such a big case that it is haram to calculate on this far fetched translation

Excerpt 3

Allah *(Ta’ala) *says in Surat An-Nisaa:
“And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination.” [Quran 4:115]
Why are we using astronomical calculations when the Prophet *(sallAllahu alayhi wasallam)*specifically ordered us not to do so? For our desires or our convenience? Our religion is not made to follow our desires and convenience.

Q.3:- Where does this ayat come in between, where has the prophet opposed the calculations as an aid to sighting of the moon? Where has he explicitly or implicitly declared it haram?

Excerpt 4:-

Allah (Ta’ala) says in Surat Al-Hashr:[INDENT]“And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.” [Quran 59:7]

*Q.4:*Now the learned scholar has started talking about punsihment, please see, where has calculations been forbidden? He is developing the case on nothing, just citing few verses which neither explicitly nor implicitly forbid calculating, whereas he has gone ahead to the exten that he has started quoting punishment ayats.

Excerpt 5:-In an effort to resolve this problem, my humble opinion is for the Islamic centers, individuals from every city or state, to go and sight the moon themselves. Or, cooperate with local Masajid and practice the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam)

Q.5: Where has he deduced his humble opinion from and why after citing big punishment ayats he is now giving such a suggestion which will create more problems? Within every community people will have the right to disagree that it is seen or not seen. Than every one will have his own opinion & own eid

Now you can see how shallow the case has been made by this eminent scholar. This is why i was stating that not the followers but these misguided scholars are creating fitnah. Now as i have refuted i will be labelled a heretic as i dared to confront them on their turf (religious explanations). How dare, so i am an automatic case of takfir or heretic or hypocracy, you name it.

However i must tell all my brothers and sisters, Islam & Quran -u-Sunnah are not any body’s personal property that they can use it at their free will and what ever they want to declare Haram is Haram & whatever they want to declare Halal is Halal. either prove it logically or do not create the fitnah.

[/INDENT][/INDENT]*

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Salam,
See the problem is, there will be different eids, based on where you are in the world.

Because the moon will be seen differently everywhere else.

You mentioned the Caliphate, this would not happen under a caliphate, because he would tell people to celebrate under their own nation's moon setting, and not his own.

This is why we can't follow saudi.

Secondly, its not about the sun's thread or what not, and we don't have to go outside to look EVERY single day for fajr and sunset, because its obvious, and happens daily.

Birth of a new moon happens every 29 or 30 days. Thats when we do go outside to look, and according to the calendar we had before Rajab only had 28 days.

But see, its not illogical to me, or other ullemas who have concluded that following the birth of the moons is right,s ot here is no way we can give that up for calculations, because calculations hold potential for error, and its simply not how the Prophet pbuh did it.

See because there is tehkeek behind it. If you read Sh. Hamza Yousuf's 30 page article, you'd see that prior to the Prophet pbuh Arabs had a sophisticated lunar calendar, but Prophet pbuh abolished tha tpractice to establish naked eye sighting.

See people don't take into account the history behind a certain hadith/ayah. Only a Fuqhi will tell you that.

And thats percisely what they are doing.

This is something that has been going on for the last 1500 years, why deem it haram now? When the biggest ullemas of the times, who we all unite under, whose opinions we all accept, why go against what they did now?

Only in contemporary period do we see that people are doing it differently than what all the ullemas of the past have been doing. They would have said something if calculations was the method to determine the moon, but htey didnt. Because they knew the sunnah better than us.

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Well i appreciate your answer, but my basic question remained, why cannot we estimate on calculations and observe for confirmations, but let this observation be at one place in the world, Because in old times, there were no communicaion means so you could celebrate eids in your own time and the business of the state was never affected because of real time clock.

You remember that in old times very few people even kept calendars therefore many old timers of villages even do not know their birthdays, but the world has changed, why this problem was not confronted by the scholars of past eras as they were scholars of past era. As simple as that. you cannot decide the problems of today on the interpretations of scholars of yesterday. Sunnah & Quran are not to be changed, but how a particular scholar reaches on a verdict has to conform to the modern time requirements. Precisely because of this stubborness of the Ulema we are making fun of ourselves and we are unable to implement our islamic calendar in our daily lives, that hurts me more than anything else.

Visual sighting is necessary that is beyond doubt, but you can add the calculations to your benefit just like we have used loud speaker for implementation.

The bigger issue in this whole thread is not visual sighting or whatever, it is that our ulemas are refusing to accpet the changing times and want to drag us back to past centuries which is impossible. The arrow of time will never go back, whether they like it or not. Only if they accept the challenge and conform the interpretations according to present day requirements, only then will Islam be a progressive religion.

Sorry for being lengthy but the issue is for all of us to understand, the golden period of Muslims was when there was no bar on questioning and interpretations were going on. No matter what we say that Mutazila or whatever heretics we had produced in those times, we produced the best thinkers in those times as well. The moment we said that door to Ijtehad is closed, we degenrated.

It is wishful thinking by anyone in the contemporary age of telecommunications that each township, village or city does it own eid. The telecommunication has bridged those distances. You call USA and you know that they are fasting while you are celebrating. Our Ulemas need to do ijtehad on this, just saying that at the time of Prophet or Caliphate, every one had their own eid so we will do so is living in a fool's paradise. What Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used to do is to be done, no question about it (like watching the moon) but what was the living of those times and we should mimic it at all costs create this fitnah (as they had several eids due to lack of communications so will be ours in this era of communication)

Hope you have understood the broader problem, the stakes here are much higher than simply one eid.

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Mazhar and Umer, very well said points. This goes back to what I had pointed out, our ulemas instead of realizing where it is important to understand the principle behind a Sunnah die debating a holy war about its text. The application of Sunnah may and has changed from time to time based on circumstances whereas it is the principle that remains the same and guides us through different situations.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Pretty self explainatory:

(3) Ibn’Umar (Allah be pleased with-both of them) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The month of Ramadan may consist of twenty-nine days. So do not fast till you have sighted it (the new moon) and do not break fast, till you have sighted it (the new moon of Shawwal), and if the sky is cloudy for you, then calculate. (Book #006](6. The Book of Fasting (Kitab Al-Sawm) - Sahih Muslim - 0 - 2367), Hadith #2367](6. The Book of Fasting (Kitab Al-Sawm) - Sahih Muslim - 0 - 2367))

Do Desis use a Rice cooker???
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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

I have also heared of another hadith (although I do not have reference to it):
that Prophet (SA) was keeping fast on a cloudy nite and a group of trustable people from Shaam came and said they have seen the moon - on the way to Mohamaad (SA). Prophet immediately broke fast and announced Eid.

What does that tell you about reliability of looking through eye? Also as someone asked - what if we go above the clouds and see it?
Sun, Moon and earth have a system. They do no jump around. Hence they are perdictable.
Enf have been said regarding this - so i will keep my post short

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MKF, USR very informative posts. I am all for the use of technological aids if it helps the unity. Which we do require rather desperately.

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I haven't read every single post. I noticed someone say there should be unity.

Unity within the city/country or a global unity for eid? I.e. celebrating Eid the same day throughout the world?

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Unity... ??? LOL

do they even know the concept of astronomy???

a night starts in Makkah and then it floats all around the world... so it's the same night that comes on different days in the world...

If they want to unite, why uniting for the moon... unite for the sun too.. that is also created by Allah, so my brothers and sisters! please starighten your lines, stand shoulder to shoulder, no gaps... it's Isha Time in Makkah..

and please, do not unite against Palistine, or Iraq or Afghanistan... yeh bhee koi unite honaY kee cheezaiN haiN????

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How was Eid celebrated during "Caliphate" period when the land covered was very vast .... Eypt/Turkey to Iran/Hijaz etc?

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sorry not understood what you want to say

There is no dichotomy about the sun, all agreed on a hypothetical line in Pacific opposite the prime meridian to be the start of a new date & new date starts according to time difference from the line. It is hypothetical as just few kilometers east of that line the islands are one day behind.

About the moon, why can't we have such a dateline, may be at the same solar dateline or Makkah wherever? The point is not for the unity of Muslims for celebrating one eid but to have our calendar functional which suffers from serious date problems (One Pakistan, divided into three dates of shawwal, i wonder how will they adjust). These problems are rendering it ineffective and unusable.

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according to the reach of communications, if one village sees the moon and he happens to go to another village the same night and if they had not seen and he tells them that he had so they had eid as well. Own moon , own eid

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it was a local moon sighting…

A moon sighted by a caravan about 100 miles from Madinah was not considered as a witness for ending of Ramadhan in Madinah Munawwarah by the Caliph Syedana Umer Al Farooq:razi:

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy


Keep following the Jewish then ...

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Guys,
I read a real nice column in Jang and wanted to share with you. This debate of 2 or “MashAllah” 3 Eids will continue until we all sit together and utilize the Sunnah and the technology we’ve to get on a consensus for one day for Eid. I’m sure everyone agrees that there’s only one day set for Eid and it can’t be 3 like we had in Pak. Interestingly, MMA’s Maulana Fazul-ur-Rehman celebrated on Tues unlike his counterparts Qazi Hussain Ahmad who did on Wednesday so.. my goodness.. People are setting steps on Mars and we’re unable to find the moon as Umar Sharif once said…

Here’s the link:
Daily Jang: Urdu News - Latest Breaking News update Pakistan - jang.com.pk

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funny Anwaar

once nothing else is left to say, historically our bigoted people have used such allegations. By the way read about hebrew calendar first and than comment. i am giving a link for your ease over here.

& for comparison & knowledge about all the calendar systems in the world, here is the complete guide on all calendar systems used in the world.

http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/calendar28.txt

My friend better way is that for all the readers of this thread, you present two things, authenticity of what you had stated about local moon sighting and an explicit order that taqleed has to be done for Sahaba or Tabieen as well other than Quran & Sunnah. what i have seen in a thread above, Hazrat Muhahhamd (p.b.u.h) broke fast and celebrated eid on witness of an arriving caravan, what to follow, sunnah of prophet or taqleed of sahabas?

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You want authenticity and references MKF:

here take you time, read the following:

Part 1

Part 2

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

This is called "baal Kee Khaal Utaarna"

I wonder that somebody could write so much which actually means nothing. I mean there is no conclusive prohibtion in calculation. Even one authentic narration of hadith on which the whole case has been pleaded permits calculation. The author has gone to the extent that he has said that we may not need the islamic calendar for our daily lives because this sighting problem renders it unusable but see the moon because people of the past used to see it. see the ayat and explanation provided by the author below
“Surely the months with God are twelve in the book of God since the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are sacred” (9:36)" & the basis of this ayat our scholar says
“This verse is to clarify that the legal rulings in sacred law are to be determined by lunar months that are calculated by the crescent moons irrespective of the solar calendar.”2 Thus, the Qur’an commands Muslims to use the lunar month for their devotional matters, but not necessarily their worldly affairs."

Sir, Islam is a very simple religion but it has been turned into a complex legal structure by these people. If you have read the posts above, we stated that we must see the moon to fulfill the sunnah, but we must have one place in the world to observer and communicate to the rest of the world (it is modern world, now no body should tell me that earlier muslim scientists had developed sophisticated communication systems through which they could pass messages within hours in the whole world). There is no prohibtion to sighting at one place in the world as well.

calculation is i think no where prohibited, these rightly guided ulemas have some pet ayats of punsihment and quote them at their free will whether applicable or not.

what jews are doing is intercalary months and following jews is adding those.

The stubborness of these ulemas reminds me of a joke, once a brahimin was talking to a gujjar and discussion turned towards a cow, gujjar said that cow has three legss, brahimin said no way, so the had a bet, after betting they went to count the legs of the cow, brahimin counted and said look they are four, on which gujjar replied that no they are three, Brahimin said count and the gujar counted one, tow , three. Once brahimin said cannot you see they are four, gujjar replied "Chaar to hoon gay tab jab mein maanoon gaa" They will be four only when i will accpet (otherwise they are three). This is a classic case of mein naaa maanoon