Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

To be honest with you all, I live here in metroplex of Dallas Fortworth, TX and we Muslims repeated the same bull crap of 2 Eids.

I'm so much offended and deeply hurt by this stupidity. The Green pagri(Hanfi brothers); they did Eid on Tues and I followed with the majority along with ISNA and with 90% of the Muslims here, I did on Monday.

I mean what's such a big deal about using technology to aid us in sighting and calculating the lunar cycle. This is really idiotic to have 2 Eids or even 3 as in case of Pak this time. People are laughing at us literally. I mean it's so ridiculous that Hanafis and Arbis can't sit together and decide a day for Eid. How can you expect greater unity in the overall community?
Those who say that Eid is to be done only on the sight of the moon by naked eye; well, I got a question from you. Why do you use cars instead of camels? Why you are on Gupshup instead of sending letters by pigeons? I mean, honestly, I'm just bringing my guts here on this topic and I'm sure that many people would agree with my opinions if not all.

Umer

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Aside from the debate over calculations and non calculations (which btw has been battered by ullemas on both sides) one thing thats really disturbing is the name calling of ullemas that people on this forum are doing.

These people are protectors of Deen, closer to Allah more than any of us can get. They have made sacrifices in their lives, to save this deen, and present it to us. Just because we don’t like it, because external forces make us give up jannah for jannah on earth, and luxuries of life here, doesn’t mean we can **disrespect **the ullemas.

These are people who Allah swt Praises, and we have the Guts to call them names, and say what we say? Shame on all of us, who call ourselves muslims.

Secondly, Arguments from both sides have been presented and I’ve read both.

ANd to be honest, Those who are sticking to the Sunnah are correct.

One important thing to understand is that, Using cars today and not camels, is not the same thing as seeing the moon with your naked eye, or using calculations.

Calculations you have to know are estimates. Of the upcoming future, however the orbit of the moon is so unpredictable, that it forces us to assume and estimate.

There isn’t ONE scientist on earth, that will disagree with this. When the new moon is born, at the end of its cycle, the speed at which it moves its variable. Its NEVER THE SAME. Thus there is always a variation, on WHEN the moon’s CREST will be sighted.

NOW look at what QURAN and HADITH tell us! (DO NOT NEGLECT THIS) the Quran and Hadith in ALL their literal sense say to SIGHT the CRESCENT (HILAL) with your naked eye.

For those who know Arabic, should look up the hadiths and the Quranic text. And actually do tehkeek (background info) on those words.

In all their literal sense they tell us to **SEE **it with NAKED EYES.

Therefore, you cannot make a claim that driving cars are haram. If there was a hadith saying, “WHEN YOU TRAVEL TRAVEL ON FOOT ONLY”. THEN cars would be haraam.

Islam teaches us to respect knowledge. And especially respect deeni knowledge. And when you have faith, there are some thigns that do not require reasoning, for that knowledge is with Allah swt alone, and he himself in the Quran says this, so why are we in such denial?

Secondly, ALL OF THE MAJOR ULLEMAS OF THE WORLD are in consensus, from Sheikh Hamza Yousuf to Mufti Ibrahim Desai to you name it going back to the Harram shareef.

I remind you that it was only one Mufti who passed the fatwa on calculations, to which if not one, hundred of Muftis responded in their Essays.

To start off, do some research yourself, **just because it makes sense to you in our typical secular way, DOES NOT MEAN thats how it should be done. **

SOME FLAWS WITH ISNA

** We attach a paper written on the significance of Hilal sighting by our beloved brother and most respected scholar in North America Shaikh Hamza Yusuf for your perusal. It is a masterpiece on the said topic. (Link can be found on: www.zaytuna.org](http://www.zaytuna.org/))
** In a conference call (Sept 19), Imam Siraj Wahhaj (MANA), Imam Asim (Imam Jamil’s community), Imam Warith Deen Mohammad (via e-mail), and Dr. Khurshid Khan (ICNA) have rejected the Fiqh Council’s “Ijtihad”. They have told Dr. Ingrid Mattson, the President of ISNA that they will follow the North American Hilal sighting.
**It has been learnt that the Fiqh Council of
made its “Ijtihad” about going with “calculations” without consulting and even sharing their “research” with all their members of their own Council. One of them and in fact the most prominent member, Shaikh Mukhtar Maghraui who was kept in dark till the decision was made public. After the decision, he got the copy of the paper written by Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah, with which he disagrees. He has submitted his resignation to Dr. Muhammad Nur Abdullah of the Fiqh Council.

** Unfortunately, ISNA also did not consult with all members of their highest consultative body, Majlis Ash-Shura. It is learnt that at least three or four members were not consulted or disagree with the Fiqh Council’s decision, including Br. Qaiser Imam, Br. Kareem Irfan, and Sr. Ameena Jandali. Furthermore, ISNA’s financial and human resources and website is being used (abused) by the Fiqh Council to propagate their decision and explanations. Unfortunately, there is NO accountability from the ISNA leadership and Shura members.

** Muslim communities in ALL major cities in the US and Canada have overwhelmingly rejected the FCNA/ISNA “Fatwa” including New York, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Philadelphia, Sacramento, San Jose, and Detroit.
We sincerely urge the Fiqh Council of North America and ISNA to reconsider their decision about following calculations for the beginning of Islamic months. Their decision, which has no basis in the Shari’ah, has created division in the Muslim community. Moreover, they are negating the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (Sallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) about sighting the Hilal for beginning the Islamic months.

Prophet (s) said: 'I commend you to be fearful of Allah …any among you who live will see much disagreement, so you must hold to my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly-guided and guiding khalifs. Hold onto it with your teeth. Beware of new matters. Every innovation is misguidance." [Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi]

BIRTH OF THE MOONS BY SHEIKH HAMZA YOUSUF **** MUST READ*****

http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=100

This paper advances several arguments and rebuts others in an effort to prove that the only acceptable basis for determining the lunar month is the actual sighting of the dawning crescent. At the root of the problem is a failure to recognize that the crescent moon’s appearance is a legal cause (sabab) determined by God in the Qur’an and through His Prophet’s words. That being the case, no scholar in the history of Islam has ever permitted calculation in lieu of sighting until the modern era. Moreover, predicting the new moon’s visibility with absolute certainty is impossible, even by modern scientific calculations, as opposed to the degree of certainty that has been attained in predicting the astronomical new moon, which is invisible to the naked-eye. Furthermore, the ability to predict the new moon’s probable appearance has not increased greatly from premodern times. For these reasons, and others discussed in this paper, actual sighting poses difficulties in terms of the scheduling requisites created by a modern industrial or postindustrial society.

I argue that the actual naked-eye sighting is the standard demarcator for establishing the entrance of the Islamic lunar month based on the fact that the Qur’anic verse, They ask you about the crescent moons; say they are a means to measure your specific times and are also for the commencement of the Hajj (2:189), can only be interpreted literally. This conclusion ensues because the verse is decisive in its evidentiary nature and unequivocal in meaning. As far as the fast of Ramadan, it is only validly begun on the basis of affirming the entrance of the month by sighting the crescent moon. I will present the textual and linguistic evidence to substantiate this position. In the eventuality of an obscure horizon on the twenty-ninth day of the month, the overwhelming majority of scholars argue that the month should be completed by fasting a thirtieth day. There are a few divergent opinions from this ruling. However, they do not establish the basis for standardizing a lunar calendar based on calculations, as I will show.

I will also establish that observational astronomy has advanced little during the last 2000 years. Premodern people had extensive knowledge of the calculations needed to make advanced calendars, predict eclipses, and ascertain with certainty the births of new moons based upon separation after the point of lunisolar conjunction. The Arabs in the pre-Islamic period, during the prophetic epoch, and thereafter made both lunar and solar calendars. The Arabs were using a sometimes calculated and intercalated lunar calendar in the pre-Islamic period, until its abolition by the Prophet, peace and blessings of God be upon him, who replaced it with a calendar based on actual sighting. Hence, I argue that, far from being an advancement, moving to a calculated lunar calendar is a reversion to pre-Islamic (jahili) custom. Similarly, I will show how the Jews also used a lunar calendar based on actual sighting until political developments forced its abandonment.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

SHEIKH DR.IBRAHIM DERMALI P.H.D

With the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Calculation or Eye-Sighting

By Shaikh Dr. Ibrahim Dremali
(Ph.D. in Shari’a from Al-Azhar University)

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Universe.
“They ask you (O Mohammed) about the new moons. Say: these are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage…” Surat Al-Baqarah (2:189)
Allah (SWT) says in Surat Al-Imran (3:103):

“And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves…”

Division within the Muslims is indeed one of the greatest dangers to our Ummah. This disruption causes disunity, animosity, hatred, slandering, backbiting, boycotting and departing from one another; weakening the Ummah and opening the door for our enemies. This kind of destruction dismantles our Ummah, what Allah (SWT) has described as the best of all nations. And all these are from among the great sins prohibited by Allah (SWT) and His Messenger (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam). And being united, gathering together in unison, under one body, is the greatest force that strengthens the Muslim Ummah.

The issue of entering into the month of Ramadan has caused a lot of endless arguments, and time spent in extensive research, in trying to prove theories and opinions. From these opinions there are some who follow the moon sighting in Makkah, some who follow the sighting of the closest Islamic country, some who follow any Islamic country, and some who follow local sighting.

What is the solution? What is the solution under the absence of the Islamic Khilafa or leadership, which gathers the people under one opinion? What is the solution when people are far away from practicing the Sunnah of Rasoolullah? What is the closest opinion we should follow under this kind of differentiation? The answer my dear brothers and sisters, is very simple. But we choose to make it difficult.

This is a crucial matter especially now, when one of the largest Islamic organizations in the United States has announced that Ramadan will begin and end at a certain time, according to astronomical calculations. This opinion which was released to the public at least one month before Ramadan, caused a serious fitnah within the Muslims in the America. There are enough problems going on in the Muslim world today, why should we increase them and be against one another?

In the early generations Muslims used the stars, moon and sun for the purpose of guidance and direction. However, they never used or depended on astronomical calculations for determining when to start any acts of worship. This was not due to any doubts in the astronomical calculation system, but due to the laws of the Shari’ah Islamiyyah (The Islamic Law) and the order of the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam). The Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam) in many authentic ahadith related that the lunar months were indicated by a visual sighting of the hilal (crescent)

In a hadith related by Ibn Omar (radiy Allahu anhumma):

 Do not fast until you see the new moon, and do not stop fasting until you see it, and if it is concealed by clouds them count out (the thirty days of Sha'baan ) for it.
Al-Bukhaaree (1906) and Muslim (1080).

In another narration:

 He (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam) also said: "Do not fast until you have seen the moon, and if it is concealed by clouds then complete thirty days."
Al-Bukhaaree (1907)

In another hadith from Abu Huraira (radiy Allahu anhu):

 "Fast when it (the moon) is seen, and cease fasting when it is seen,
so if is concealed by clouds then complete thirty days of Sha'baan. "
Al-Bukhaaree (1909)

It is clear from these ahadith that visual sighting should be used, and we are obligated to follow what Allah prescribed to us through His Prophet. Thus the moon sighting becomes an act of worship, from which Islamic rules and regulations are built from. Allah has made the religion easy, with signs all around us for everyone to know. He made the setting of the sun the sign for the beginning of Maghrib and the end of ‘Asr, and the disappearance of the red glow in the sky the sign of the beginning of the time of ‘Isha’. He made the sighting of the moon after its disappearance at the end of the month the sign of the beginning of the new lunar month and the end of the previous month.

Ibn Omar (radiy Allahu anhumma) related that Prophet Mohammed (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam) said:

 "We are an illiterate nation that neither writes nor calculates
(i.e. using astronomical calculations). The month is either like this, or this. Meaning: Sometimes it is of twenty nine days, and sometimes it is of thirty."
Al-Bukhaaree (1930)

We are not going into the explanation of these ahadith, or what the scholars have said about them. But the important thing to remember here is that if Muslims have differentiation on a certain issue, they should go back to the judge, and that is the Qur’an and Sunnah.

Allah (SWT) the All-Knowing and All-Wise, knew what advances His creation would make in astronomy and science; but He still said in Surat Al-Baqarah (2:185):

 “So whoever of you (sights the crescent on the first night of) the month, he must observe Saum (fasts)…”

The ayah is clearly speaking about visual sighting and not calculations. In fact astronomical calculations were known to the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam), for the Egyptians used it for 3000 years before the Prophet. And after knowing this the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam) still did not approve it for marking the beginning and ending of the lunar months.

Allah (SWT) says in Surat An-Nisaa (4:115):

 “And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination.”

The Prophet, the Sahaba, and the Tabi’een all used visual sighting, not calculations. It is better for us to follow the way of the Salaf in all religious matters. We see the fitnah between the Muslim Ummah right now and the problems that spawned from this organization’s decision. In seeking a solution for this problem we should go back to what Allah (SWT) says in Surat An-Nisaa (4:59):

• “O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.”

So the solution is between our hands, between the pages of the Qur’an and between the pages of Bukhaaree and Muslim and other books of hadith. Why are we using astronomical calculations when the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam) specifically ordered us not to do so? For our desires or our convenience? Our religion is not made to follow our desires and convenience.

Allah (SWT) says in Surat Al-Hashr (59:7):

 “And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.”

In an effort to resolve this problem, my humble opinion is for the Islamic centers, individuals from every city or state, to go and sight the moon themselves. Or, cooperate with local Masajid and practice the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam). This is the best solution, when we start to practice the forgotten Sunan (Traditions and teachings of Prophet Mohammed). It is not in our best interest to abandon any Sunan, especially one of the easiest Sunan to practice, such as sighting the moon. And this type of Sunnah is a Sunnah of Shari’ah and Sunnah of Aqeedah. Moon sighting is an act of worship, and worship is the mission of this dunya.

My dear brothers and sisters, our Ummah faces enough problems and disputes. Let us be united and go back to Allah (SWT) and His Messenger (sallAllahu alayhi wasallam). This life is very short, too short to follow our desires. And with Allah lies all success. May Allah protect us and all the Muslims from tribulations; Ameen. Be with Allah and Allah will be with you.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

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Now honestly, you consider these people *Village Mullahs? Green pagri walaye? Backward? *

Wake up and be ashamed of yourself. First for calling names to those who try to defend the Deen, and then about deviating from Sunnah.

Most of us are not Arabic, most of us are not scholars, we can't even debate at that level.

So don't use your wits and desires to ask for somethign that is against the Shari'ah and the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh.

Starting with myself, I know how hard it is to live in this world, we're really all hypocrites, and I can say taht with conviction because I know I'm not that great when it comes to religion.

But I can say one thing with conviction, that these scholars KNOW what they are talking about, and they MAKE sense, why? Perhaps because they rely on Allah swt, and now what the west feeds us with.

May Allah have mercy on whatever wrong I have said, or rude to anyone.

May Allah have mercy on all of us. And Guide us all.

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We Muslims can die debating the issue, the problem is that we do not want to leave our stance and want others to follow our stance. Perhaps the best caption was in Dawn Newspaper yesterday,"United we stand, divided we celebrate".

If you want to defend these ,"rightly guided ulemas", please do so but you must understand that our calendar has so many loopholes because of this sighting problem that it has been rendered impractical in proper everyday implementation and we are using the solar calendar for every day life and lunar Islamic calendar for only creating confusion. Diesn't this hurt you as a good Muslim?

Why don't we sight the Subah-e-Kaazib through our naked eyes for closure of sehr time as i believe for that matter also there is a verse,(about two strings, black & white) why do we go by a time table issued by some organization for the area based on mathematical calculations? Do you have a sound reply for it? This is selective Islam. why do we open fast on sunset based on calculations? why don't we stand up on our roofs every day to see the sun going down?

I seriously doubt that Arabs had the capability to calculate the new moon accurately and precisely so Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) ordered this sighting. even today lot of probability is involved how come at that time they could do so while they were not at all skilled in mathematics. please do not call application of knowledge Jahillia. contrary to what has been said by dear brother above, sighting the moon is not an act of worship. it is an indication for you.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

We Muslims can die debating the issue, the problem is that we do not want to leave our stance and want others to follow our stance. Perhaps the best caption was in Dawn Newspaper yesterday,"United we stand, divided we celebrate".

If you want to defend these ,"rightly guided ulemas", please do so but you must understand that our calendar has so many loopholes because of this sighting problem that it has been rendered impractical in proper everyday implementation and we are using the solar calendar for every day life and lunar Islamic calendar for only creating confusion. Diesn't this hurt you as a good Muslim?

Why don't we sight the Subah-e-Kaazib through our naked eyes for closure of sehr time as i believe for that matter also there is a verse,(about two strings, black & white) why do we go by a time table issued by some organization for the area based on mathematical calculations? Do you have a sound reply for it? This is selective Islam. why do we open fast on sunset based on calculations? why don't we stand up on our roofs every day to see the sun going down?

I seriously doubt that Arabs had the capability to calculate the new moon accurately and precisely so Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) ordered this sighting. even today lot of probability is involved how come at that time they could do so while they were not at all skilled in mathematics. please do not call application of knowledge Jahillia. contrary to what has been said by dear brother above, sighting the moon is not an act of worship. it is an indication for you.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

"And eat and drink till the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears" Sura- Baqra: Ayat 187.

This is the Ayat i was referring above. can anyone guide me that why do we base our start of fast on calculations given to us by some mathematicians and do not follow this Ayat in letter.

Can anyone quote a Hadith that calculating for the moon is Haram as our ulemas are professing and a deviation from shariah and a Bida'at. Please my dear brothers and sisters. Application of knowledge is not jahilia, jahilia is in not applying knowledge once it is available and the circumstances require (as i have referred above for implementation of Islamic calendar in every day life. I think we should forget about Ummah concept if we cannot agree on a such a simple issue.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

This is one of the prime points where non-muslims get to scrutinize us for our hypocrisy. Except for Ramadan, not one muslim in the world bothers about the other solar or lunar boundaries that have been set for us. We pary five times a day based on calendars, we break fasts based on calendars but when it comes to Ramadan we vehemently defend the moon against the sun.

We can see our results in NWFP, 3 Eids. Then we keep dreaming of unity. If those who think sighting via naked eye is absolutely correct and should not be abandoned then nothing wrong with it either however the problem is muslims do not want to unite on anything. We can just pick a central moon sighting hub for each major geographical region and follow it. They can collect moon sighting reports, which make sense of course and announce. No one is saying abandon the Sunnah but use a better means to propagate it now. We are no longer in the century where towns were confined to not more than a mile anymore. It always appear muslims forget the principle behind a Sunnah yet have a pitbull fight over its application. Its almost impossible to have the same application of a principle with changing times. in some cases it is not but in some cases it is and this is one of them. We can even go by naked eye sighting if we could first discipline ourselves to listen to each other and trust each other.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Man used to base many things on what was going on in the sky. That was before we became educated and came up with things like wall calendars, Microsoft Outlook and Day Planners. Seems to me this an area where the practice of Islam can be modernized. Pick a date. Mark it on the calendar. Utilize tools and information that were not available 1400 years ago and discard the practices that are not applicable to modern times.

Eid Festival 2009: Share your mehndis/dresses/ churiyan/other accessories
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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

It would be better for non-muslims to stay out of this debate.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

My respected brother Crescent_
No where I’ve mentioned to disobey the Holy Quran or its teachings. My whole point is the stupidity that we do every time, yes here in the technologically wizard land of US as well of 2 Eids.
I agree that lunar calendar isn’t as predicatable as we might think but using technology to aid us in the calculation and then agree on a consensus is what we should be looking for. I mean, all the freaking Mullahs(and yes I say it because they are creating divisions, I mean huge divisions between us Muslims). Remember, not all Mullahs are doing this. These are basically the ones who go are in my humble opinion(lakeer kay faqeer).
The world has reached till Mars and we are still looking for the moon. How ironic??

I agree 110% with your views but they don’t answer the epitome of stupidity of 2 Eids in our community. If the molvis can use deen and science together, then, I believe there’s no way we can’t come with a consensus.
I am a strong believer in unity and I’m not saying it perfunctorily. I mean it and if it means for the molvis in NWFP and the rest of Pak to sit together for a year to discuss about it, I’ll say rock’n’ roll baby…
I’m open to any suggestions and won’t mind reading your views whatsoever..
Umer

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Mazhar jee,

Quoting you if you don’t mind:
We Muslims can die debating the issue, the problem is that we do not want to leave our stance and want others to follow our stance. Perhaps the best caption was in Dawn Newspaper yesterday,“United we stand, divided we celebrate”.

If you want to defend these ,“rightly guided ulemas”, please do so but you must understand that our calendar has so many loopholes because of this sighting problem that it has been rendered impractical in proper everyday implementation and we are using the solar calendar for every day life and lunar Islamic calendar for only creating confusion. Diesn’t this hurt you as a good Muslim?

Why don’t we sight the Subah-e-Kaazib through our naked eyes for closure of sehr time as i believe for that matter also there is a verse,(about two strings, black & white) why do we go by a time table issued by some organization for the area based on mathematical calculations? Do you have a sound reply for it? This is selective Islam. why do we open fast on sunset based on calculations? why don’t we stand up on our roofs every day to see the sun going down?

I seriously doubt that Arabs had the capability to calculate the new moon accurately and precisely so Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) ordered this sighting. even today lot of probability is involved how come at that time they could do so while they were not at all skilled in mathematics. please do not call application of knowledge Jahillia. contrary to what has been said by dear brother above, sighting the moon is not an act of worship. it is an indication for you.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/statusicon/user_online.gif

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/report.gif

AGREED 110%. AWESOME!!! YOU MADE MY DAY.

** I share your views as well.. You couldn’t have said better than this.**
** Umer**

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

These "Mullahs'' (May Allah bless them all) are not causing divisions.

Its average joes who have jumped on the bandwagon. I've already explained the flaws in ISNA, and why all the other organizations have disagreed with it.

Brother , you talk about consensus, there IS a consensus, from all over the world on SEEING the moon with NAKED EYE.

Can you please, send me a hadith where it says "CALCULATE" the birth of the new moon.

So when these "mullahs" stick to the Sunnah method of determining the lunar they're only sticking to what Allah has told them to do.

Thats like saying, We are so modernized, that say there is a device you connect to your brain, and it lets you pray namaaz quickly and you dont have to pay attention. Its acceptable as long as you're praying. SO we should do it. No.

If you have studied Astronomy you'd know how unpredictable the lunar calendar is. I wish the US Naval Observatory would actually announce the errors, and say that they made a mistake. Then wat would ISNA do? If there are two estimates?

These "mullahs" are not dividing anyone, its people who lack faith in Allah, and lack knowledge in Sunnah and Quran. They find that this is a easier method so we should do it.

What we have to understand is that, people who know the Quran and Hadiths BETTER THAN US would never give in, because htey cannot accept a method that is **NOT ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF GOD, and what THE PROPHET PBUH HAS **told us to do.

So deviations will occur,a nd people who want to base it on calculations, would branch off. and THEY would cause divisions.

There are numerous hadiths where the Sahabas conquered lands far away, and the advice they were given was that they should see the moon there and do eid according to their time.

As for your mention of the Black and White thread, that has nothing to do with lunar conjunction. You migth wanna look up Elliptical light and how that works toe xplan that cuz thats what it is.

thats what allows us to break our fast, and stop eating.

The Solar calendar, and the Lunar Calendar are TWO different things.

You cannot compare the two its futile to do so.

May Allah guide us All.

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Its so simple, we are united under the banner of God.

Following the Hadith like it tells us to do, why is that so hard for everyone?

Why do we have to branch off and do somethign not according to the hadith?

WHy are people here telling people to get off hadiths and follow calculations?

We all can be united on that front, but one organization for sure is misguiding people. May Allah guide them all.

Lets all stick to the sunnah, because the Prophet pbuh has said "Unity lies within my Sunnah".

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Better for whom? Sounds like you might need some help.

Maybe you'll ask non-Muslims for their help on how to determine the new moon on this obscure little planet once they develop space travel and Muslims decide it's not haram to space travel.

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First of all, in the quest to improve our knowledge we should accept input from any quarters available, may it be Muslim or Non-Muslim, my apologiies to seminole if he/she felt offended by the remarks of my brother.

Dear Crescent, first of all please try to understand the issue in totality rather than just putting your head in the sand and staying on course.

As i referred about the ayat, it was never for lunar or solar. what i meant to say that the ayat clearly guides us the time to finish the sehr and break the fast. Do we literally follow it the way. Now the event described in the ayat always happens but we do not have to come out of our rooms and look towards the sky, because of mathematics we know precisely at what time it will happen so issue solved, sunset hapens but based on calculations we know when it will happen and we literally do not have to go to roof top to see. why are we not insisting on sighting these events ourselves, as sahabas used to do (refer to sahih bukhari where it is told that sahabas used to have two strings, black and white and they tried to ascertain the time by trying to differentiate between them, whenever they could in the darkness of night, they assumed sehr closed. However Hazrat Muhammad corrected this practice by saying that it is not literal but figurative and you see the sky). so why do not we see the sky ourselves every day.

Moon will come out on the given night, and its ok that we see it as well as told by our prophet, but where it is written that whole world in this modern times of communications see its own moon, previously moon was seen in each village separately but now whole world is a global village, so why don't we agree to have a Islamic dateline where if moon is seen is authority for the whole world, who stops it? We calculate and issue and estimated calendar and if cannot see it practically issue an ammendment but that ammendment must be for the whole world. Only this was our calendar will be usable for every day business, otherwise it is only good for creating confusion.

why are we people against these maulvies is because of their staedfastness in not accepting something contrary to their views. They can really make a simple non issue a matter of life and death. Just like this moon sighting today, use of loud speakers was a matter of life and death for these maulvies, now see that they are the biggest proponents of it. They have established themselves as Thaykaydaars of Islam which is the worst thing about them (of course exceptions like Dr Zakir nayak & javed ahmed ghamadi)

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

Crescent, like I said, naked eye moon sighting is according to Sunnah and we can preserve it however we need a concensus on who we will follow. This is the point local mullahs do not understand. They cannot understand that they no longer live in little villages, they now live in a country which is considered one geographical entity. Sub apni derh inch ki masjid bana kar bethain hain. Muslims are no longer a small town community where there is none to negligible chance of not being unified in such events. Muslims are not spread across thouands of miles and yet considered belonging to a single country. The point is UNITY IN CELEBRATING EID. Both methods of determining the Hilal have sound arguments based on which scholar you pick. How can you expect muslims to unite under a Caliphate when we cannot even unite on Eid. I sincerely think reaching a concensus is not difficult the real problem is to deal with those who oppose a concensus because they will loose their authority to command masses. If the majority of the scholars say stick with eye sighting then perfect but then also stick with a central authority. This latter part is our problem, the issue of naked eye sighting versus astronomical instruments is just a charade to sideline the real cause. I'm sure even those who are in favor of astronimical means would be amicable to naked eye sighting if muslims could work to eradicate the division by following a central authority whether they make mistakes or not.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

exactly

no problem if the whole world agrees on one date, we estimate on calculations and than someone in the world with the responsibility sees the moon and confirm as well.

In pakistan there was no debate on calculation and every body was following sunnah, what happened, three eids, so your solutions of every body following sunnah is not valid given we apply it in ways suiting our viewpoints. Nothing wrong with the sunnah but the way we apply it and it is our ,"rightly guided ulemas" who selectively applyy it.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

For the earlier debate about whether we can accurately predict or not setting aside, here is the US Naval Observatory link

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html

Go and enter the coordinates for Lat/long and time zone of the place where you want to check for moon sighting

generate the table for both sun rise & set and moon rise & set.

Check on the particular date where there is confusion of sighting, like i checked for peshawar for 22nd October as shahadas came for sighting and eid was celibrated on 23rd.

It reprted that on 22nd the sunset was at 1732 while the moonset was 1724 and hence moon could not have been visible in Peshawar, however the next day i.e. 23rd october the sunset was 1731 while moonset was 1753. so there was a time period of 22 minutes in which moon was over the horizon. Now it is accepted that if moonset is within 20 minutes of sunset than it is not seldom possible to see it with naked eye due to ambient light, so practically there was less chance to see the moon on 23rd night. However on 24th night sunset was at 1730 while moonset at 1827 so cutting the ambient light 20 minutes as well, moon must have been visible for good about 40 minutes.

and exactly Eid was safe to be celebrated on 25th and might possible have been celebrated on 24th but 23rd, absurd. How can you see the moon once it has set before the sun.

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Re: Inaccurate Decision of ISNA’s Fiqh Council Creates Controversy

while i was working on this site, i generated the same tables for Makkah at 21'25'' N 30'49" E & something really interesting came up.

In Makkah moon could not be sighted in ni 21/22 oct so 22 oct was declared as 30 ramadhan. now according to the table on this ni sunset was at 1752 while moonset was at 1719 so no question of sighting, but automatically 23rd became 1 shawwal, however on ni 22/23 sunset was at 1751 & moonset was at 1752 so again no question of moon sighting. what was the problem than?

If you go a month behind 1st of ramadhan was declared on 23rd of September with sighting of moon on ni 22/23 september, however refering to the same table we see that sunset was 1817 and moonset was 1817, again no question but probably some shahdas were given and moon accepted. This created the discrepancy a month after.

My point is that we should consult these charts to estimate the possible & likely date and than physically see it ourselves as it was the sunnah. Because of globalization the error spreads to mammoth proportions. so the best way out is a combination of both methods and one place in whole world to observe the moon.

why one place? Nokundi near zahidan is the west most extent of Pakistan, here moon may be sighted but in lahore it may not, however due to one country we accept and celebrate the eid all the country. if Muslims all over Pakistan can celebrate eid on Nokundi's sighting just because we are one country and no one objects, why muslims all over the world celebrate eid on one sighting place and what better place may be than Makkah & Medina?

The other option is than what proposed by my brother Crescent but in that case our calendar is null and void for every day use and i think in no hadith it has been explicitly stated that every one has to see his own moon.

Please think, we need to get out of this dogma, Islam is very easy religion, we followers make it complex