In search of Liberal Muslims....

its definitely not the best of the articles, but still is a good one to ignite a heated discussion on the topic…

VIEW: In search of Liberal Muslims —Syed Mansoor Hussain

For the life of me, I cannot understand what ‘enlightened moderation’ means. Does it mean that when we embark upon the road to enlightenment, we should do it moderately? Or, is it the other way around, meaning that if we become truly enlightened (about what?) then we will become moderate (about what?)

For most of my life, I have considered myself a liberal person, but I have never thought of myself as a Liberal Muslim. Over the last few years, there has been a worldwide search for Liberal Muslims. Media in the west especially, but also in many Muslim countries, have expended much ink on this issue. Books have been written, learned articles published and think-tank position papers issued about who and what exactly is a Liberal Muslim. Presenting such a breed to the non-Muslim world as some entity that was as yet undiscovered, but existed all along, has indeed become a regular industry.

I would like to submit that there is no such thing as a Liberal Muslim. The problem, with apologies to Ogden Nash is about the difference between the big-L Liberal and the small-l liberal! A liberal person is an “open minded” person, who does not take things too seriously. However, a Liberal is somebody who believes in Liberalism as a political and social philosophy. Liberalism places individual rights in a primary position; it presumes that all laws that govern any society must first protect the right of an individual to decide what his or her own behaviour and system of beliefs should be as long as it does not conflict with the rights of others. Liberalism also presumes that such individual freedoms can only exist in a society where the people make the laws.

Islam, as we well know, is a system of Divine Laws for all times, and governs all aspects of the life of a Muslim. Therefore, to conflate it with Liberalism is entirely disingenuous. There are many Muslims who are open minded and willing to accept new ideas and information. However, if they believe in Islam, they cannot accept new ideas about certain things unless these have gone through the rigorous and difficult process of ijtehad. Another term, often used synonymously with liberal is “moderate”, the idea being that there also exists a category of Muslims who are moderate in their beliefs. This again is highly suspect as a category. Clearly, either we believe in Islam, or we do not, but we cannot believe in it moderately. It is an all or none proposition. Yes, it is possible for Muslims to be moderate in their behaviour about things in general, but not about what they believe in.

Similar to these is the concept of “enlightened moderation”. For the life of me, I cannot understand what this means. Does it mean that when embarked upon the road to enlightenment, we should do it moderately? Or, is it the other way around, and means that if we become truly enlightened (about what?) then we will become moderate (about what?). It seems that all such concepts are aimed at trying to present a category of Muslims who somehow are not entirely wedded to their beliefs and as such might be susceptible to modern ideas. It would be much more constructive in my opinion if those that propagate modern ideas come out openly and state what these are. We can then initiate an open debate about these ideas and their impact on a system wedded to the concept of the primacy of Divine Laws. Without doubt such a debate is needed.

The problem as I see it is that when confronted by western systems of government, there exists the need to somehow square our belief systems with them. Having lived in the US for many years, it is obvious to me that this is one major conflict many American Muslims have great difficulty dealing with. In Pakistan we now have an ostensibly western-style parliamentary democracy that has been extensively hybridised to fit into our cultural and religious background. But, this is at best a compromise. Such a system cannot last, and will in time be brought down by its own internal contradictions.

Western-style democracies are based on notions of secularism and pluralism, and in an Islamic milieu such notions cannot survive religious scrutiny. But before we discard western concepts of government in their entirety, we must also realise that most of their systems of laws are also based on ethical and moral principles derived from their own religious background. There is much we can learn from their history, especially about religious conflicts within Christianity and how they were able to resolve them and move on to the present system of representative government where all religious denominations can coexist. The choice for us obviously cannot be between a purely western system and a theocratic retrogressive model along the lines of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Both these models have failed in most Muslim countries. Therefore, the need is to work on the creation of a new system that can take into consideration religious sensibilities and modern requirements at the same time. To use a cliché, it is time to think outside the box!

Such a quest might seem Quixotic at best, but without embarking upon it, there is little chance that Pakistan, and many other Muslim countries, can move towards truly representative and just forms of government. The first step in that direction, it would seem, is to realise that there exists a tremendous diversity within Islam in terms of interpretation and practice. Unless we accept the idea that all those who believe in Islam are Muslims and they have an equal right to be treated as such, there can be no democracy in any form. Here perhaps it might be worthwhile quoting one of the truly “enlightened” Muslims: “I assert that all people of the Qibla are Momins and that none of them becomes an infidel by omission of [some] deeds. He who has faith and also performs his duties is without doubt a Momin and destined for Paradise. He who is devoid of both faith and practice is an infidel and destined for Hell. He who has faith, but fails to act accordingly is certainly a Muslim, but a sinful one. It is up to God to punish or forgive him.” (From Imam Abu Hanifa’s response to a letter from Uthman Batti.)

The writer, a cardiac surgeon, has practised and taught medicine in the US. He can be reached at [email protected]

Good read!

BYW.

Liberal is not a dirty word.

Inability to declare oneself as liberal or conservative = moderate.

Moderate = Mainstream almost......?

Mainstream = Majority?

So what is wrong with be called Moderate? or Liberal?

Re: In search of Liberal Muslims....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
its definitely not the best of the articles, but still is a good one to ignite a heated discussion on the topic.....

[/QUOTE]

I agree! Nothing new in this article. It simply repeats (rather mockingly) the left-wing Egyptian thought prevalent among Arab-Americans and their follower Pak-American groupies.

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
…..For the life of me, I cannot understand what ‘enlightened moderation’ means. …..

[/QUOTE]

Dear Doctor! Quit getting directions from Arab-Americans. Most of them belong to left-wing Egyptian school of thought. They are just a confused lot who can’t even get their own country out of the depths of corruption and poverty. What can they give to the others?

So Dr. Syed Mansoor doesn’t understand a simple concept. Well here is something for him.
**
Enlightened moderation is to denounce the terrorist ways of the Mullahs. It is the moderation that allows Muslims to be productive members of the global village. It is the enlightenment that allows Pakistanis to be successful bankers, engineers, and doctors while keeping them away from supporting Jihadi Tali-bobo (the Talib terrorists). It is the moderation that allows you to be a loyal to your adopted country (That’s USA for our dear surgeon) at every moment of its struggle.
**

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
Islam, as we well know, is a system of Divine Laws for all times, and governs all aspects of the life of a Muslim.

[/QUOTE]

Typical Arab-inspired oft-repeated statement with no meaning whatsoever! Muslims can not get directions about Banking, aerospace travel, medicine, and surgery from early Islam. All the “divine laws” are interpretation by 4 scholars in Sunnis, and few in Shia religion. These laws were put together 1000 years ago. They are now fixed in stone. If you ever try to change them, you would be declared Kafir and promptly beheaded.

For the rest of the leftie-Muslims! They quietly go about living a half-fulfilled life hating the things “Western” and wondering what the Mullah will say against America in the next sermon.

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
if they believe in Islam, they cannot accept new ideas about certain things unless these have gone through the rigorous and difficult process of ijtehad. ……

[/QUOTE]

Wake up dear Doctor. Ijtehad died long time ago. If you ever try to bring a new thing, a new interpretation, you’d surely start a new sect (firqa). Haven’t you heard the Hadees about Bidd-aa Zalaa-la (every new thing is bad, and every bad thing will go in fire)? Ijtihad means firqa-baazi (sectarianism) now. Mullahs now tell us “My way or highway”.

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
Clearly, either we believe in Islam, or we do not, but we cannot believe in it moderately.

[/QUOTE]

Hair splitting like a pulling a toe nail our surgeon follows Arrabobo MAToos in his logic. Here are a few examples of how you believe in Islam Moderately.

**
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in suicide bombing. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in killing Shias when they pray. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in harassing Ahmadis. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in shooting AK47 on Churches. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you believe in being truthful. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you believe in being trustworthy. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you believe in being tolerant of other faiths. That’s moderation.
**
For the rest of the things in your life just follow good ole Americana and you will be mighty fine.

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
…. the concept of “enlightened moderation”. For the life of me, I cannot understand what this means. ….

[/QUOTE]

Dear Doctor should stick with operation room of his comfy American clinic. Mocking the concept of enlightenment is not his forte.

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
It would be much more constructive in my opinion if those that propagate modern ideas come out openly and state what these are. We can then initiate an open debate ..

[/QUOTE]

Debates have gone on for the last 100 years. It is now time for Muslims to denounce the terrorism and be part of the global village. Time for walking the walk and not talking the talk.

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
Western-style democracies are based on notions of secularism and pluralism, and in an Islamic milieu such notions cannot survive religious scrutiny.

[/QUOTE]

This is what Commies would say while heaping praises on the good ole Joe (Joe the Stalin). **Religious scrutiny is nothing but …..

a pipsqueak Pakistani Mullah frothing in the Jumma sermon, denouncing the Americans, and denouncing the chicken that failed to lay egg that morning.
**
Dear doctor! Which organization in Islam is responsible for such religious scrutiny? Who would certify that some democracy is Kosher while another is not? Mullah train has left the station a long time ago. It ain’t coming back to deliver the salvation. Now you follow Mullah and you may end up in Gitmo instead of your comfy office and surgery privileges in the big shiny Amreeki hospital where you treat all those non-believers.

[QUOTE]
* ** by Syed Mansoor Hussain:** *
Unless we accept the idea that all those who believe in Islam are Muslims and they have an equal right to be treated as such, there can be no democracy in any form. ….
[/QUOTE]

Nobody gives a hoot what Muslims want to do with Islam, as long as they don’t explode bombs while claiming to meat Allah and entering the Jannat or the Jannat bibi.

**
Disclaimer: This is not an effort to malign Islam or Muslims, or Arab-Americans. This is a discussion on a Pakistan board, by an average working class Pakistani. If you have a problem with some of the words, be a man and PM me, instead of running to the mods crying uncle uncle.
**

From history what we see is, muslims were always progressive until a few centuries. I dont know what was the motivating force for them. And how it is vanished now :confused:

Re: Re: In search of Liberal Muslims....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in suicide bombing. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in killing Shias when they pray. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in harassing Ahmadis. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you don’t have to believe in shooting AK47 on Churches. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you believe in being truthful. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you believe in being trustworthy. That’s moderation.
If you believe in Islam, you believe in being tolerant of other faiths. That’s moderation.

[/QUOTE]

actually these things come only when one is an extremist in Islam....
being a moderate muslim wont let u be able of such things....

only when u follow Islam with extreme devotion will u know that Islam does not allow suicide bombing....
and only then can u know that killing even non-muslims in their places of worship is not allowed....
and that attacking places of worship and religious figures is strictly forbidden even during wars....

but once u r moderate, means u dont follow Islam 100%, then u can be left with gaps between what u do and what Islam says....
then u think that suicide bombing is allowed and u can kill others moderately being Islamic and moderately being political and selfish....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Code_Red: *
From history what we see is, muslims were always progressive until a few centuries. ....
[/QUOTE]

Which history? The one in stories written by Nasim Hijazi? Well NH wrote bunch of bed time stories about la la land. The reality was quite different.

Iraqi progressive may have been in power around 1100. By 1220's MAToos were ruling the roost and being "progressive" meant beheading.

Later the Ottomans had a chance but they thought being Khalifa will add the power to the throne. In that zeal, unfortunately they sold their soul to the devil i.e. Mullah. The result of the total lack of entrepreneurship in the Ottoman lands.

On the other hand, Europe became the place of enlightenment in the 1220's. Just an example, 1262 saw Merton college being established by a Walter de Merton, the Bishop of Rochester. Christian priest may have been on the path of enlightenment by their own accord or the public simply forced them to give the MAToo ways. Soon the arts, the science particularly Mathematics was progressing leaps and bounds in Europe while Khalifa was busy in listening to the MAToo "schoolers".

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Code_Red: *
.....I dont know what was the motivating force for them. And how it is vanished now
[/QUOTE]

Motivating force is always the love of discovery and entrepreneurship. It vanished when the rulers of Iraq involved Mullahs in the state affairs and in the places of learning. That was the end of Iraqi learning.

**
Disclaimer: This is not an effort to malign Islam or Muslims, or Arab-Americans. This is a discussion on a Pakistan board, by an average working class Pakistani. If you have a problem with some of the words, be a man and PM me, instead of running to the mods crying uncle uncle.
**

what kind of oxymoronid crap is being discussed here.

Conceptually you're all full of it, because you're devoid of any of it. AND WHAT THE HELL IS MATOOS YOU IDIOT**

What was the prophet (saw)?
These are terms that writers like Voltaire and Ayad Hirssi Ali describe the greatest of creation (saw).

What about the people who don't have a say i their affairs, like muslims being bolied alive in Uzbekistan, Muslims of both genders being raped in Kosovo, muslims being bombed, shot or tortured what do you think they have to say about the attempted/continued conditioning of them mentally and pyhsically by every dynamic of a process that is supposed to help man, what am I talking about?

Those aformentioned muslims want the deen of the Glorious and all Mercifull Allah (swt) to rule them not some Liberal moderate who can't write or read properly let alone even think .

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by SaRaCeN: *
.... was the prophet (saw)? An extremist, A per
t, A teror, A serial woman**?......
[/QUOTE]

Bud! How dare you post this terrible stuff about the Messenger saw? Don't you have any respect for him? If you are a Muslim, have you no shame? Did you lose your Ghairat?

I give a hoot what a deranged and lunatic scum has to say about Messenger saw.

Our Messenger saw brought peace to this world and got rid of the MAToos from Haram sharif. He had the courage to challenge the exploiters of Kaaba. He knew that religion of Allah is only for the benefit of mankind. He was perfectly happy with Christians the followers of Injeel. Lookup his peaceful interaction with the Christian ruler of Habasha (Ethiopia).

Unfortunately MAToos have again gotten hold of our peaceful religion. They are once again exploiting the religion and killing Shias, harassing Ahmadis, and destroying Christians in Pakistan.

Down with the MAToo Munkees the terrorist scum.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Bud! How dare you post this terrible stuff about the Messenger saw? Don't you have any respect for him? If you are a Muslim, have you no shame? Did you lose your Ghairat?

I give a hoot what a deranged and lunatic scum has to say about Messenger saw.

Our Messenger saw brought peace to this world and got rid of the MAToos from Haram sharif. He had the courage to challenge the exploiters of Kaaba. He knew that religion of Allah is only for the benefit of mankind. He was perfectly happy with Christians the followers of Injeel. Lookup his peaceful interaction with the Christian ruler of Habasha (Ethiopia).

Unfortunately MAToos have again gotten hold of our peaceful religion. They are once again exploiting the religion and killing Shias, harassing Ahmadis, and destroying Christians in Pakistan.

Down with the MAToo Munkees the terrorist scum.
[/QUOTE]

BUD!?

Can you read?

Why are you so myopic and selective?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
He was perfectly happy with Christians the followers of Injeel. Lookup his peaceful interaction with the Christian ruler of Habasha (Ethiopia).
[/QUOTE]

He also sent him a letter calling him to Islam, and according to some he accepted Islam.

Why did he also send letters to the Christian Byzantine leader Heraclius, calling him and his people to islam?

Why did the companions go to war with them?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SaRaCeN: *

BUD!?

Can you read?

Why are you so myopic and selective?
[/QUOTE]

He's a worse form of a MAToo.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *

He also sent him a letter calling him to Islam, and according to some he accepted Islam.

Why did he also send letters to the Christian Byzantine leader Heraclius, calling him and his people to islam?

Why did the companions go to war with them?
[/QUOTE]

he was inviting all of them to a dinner and a get-together party and later discuss some economic reforms and trade opportunities that existed in the peaceful co-existence of the brotherly nations....

and a united war against terrorists or MAToos (whatever that means)....

right antiobl????
(waise its a shame that ur obsession with obl is so much that u need his name even to identify urself)

"Clearly, either we believe in Islam, or we do not, but we cannot believe in it moderately. "

I sooo agree! Quran is our guide and we should follow it, just because some idiots think blowing up churches will get them heaven doesnt mean thats Islam n if we dont do that we are modern muslims..antibol following the Quran and sunnah (n no where does it say kill shias or blow up churches) is being a muslim..not a modern muslim...

^
perhaps this verse wud be a bit more helpful to elaborate on ur words....

Quran 4:150
Lo! those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers, and seek to make distinction between Allah and His messengers, and say: **We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and seek to choose a way in between; **

that is how Allah defines the 'moderate muslims' in His Book....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *

He's a worse form of a MAToo.
[/QUOTE]

What a forum! Name calling, lack of thinking, irrational ideas some would say traits of a modern liberal oxymoronic muslim.

What I wrote was attacks from writers who thought they were modern.

Voltaire was a writer and philosopher from france who after the 'reformation' and 'renaissance' who wrote a play about the prophet (saw), I can't remember which khalifeefah but he wrote a letter to the then leader of france and said that if they go ahead with this play he would call the adhan for jihad and the streets of france would flow of blood, they reneged with gong ahead with the play.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali an asylum from somalia entered Holland a few years ago claiming she was being beaten and raped in Somalia. A few years down the line she had acruued a degree in politics and is now calling for the reformation and modernisation of Islam aswell as the attack or two on the greatest of creation Muhammed bin Abdullah (saw).

Tell me if you notice a difference between the stories a fundamental difference.

you arent from GIKI by any chance?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
you arent from GIKI by any chance?
[/QUOTE]

I will tell you if you tell what MAToo means.

i think it means Mullah AyaTUllah. just my theory. catchy thus popular with the kids.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
you arent from GIKI by any chance?
[/QUOTE]

No, I'm from London. UK.