In reply to dhir's query !

MESSAGE ORIGINALLY POSTED by

dhir Senior Member
Posts: 135
posted March 29, 2000 04:25 AM

Dhir bro, wahay guru

Welcome to gupshup’s religion forum.

I have few questions in response to your post.

Question 1: What is the concept of Allah in your faith?
Question 2: Beside Garanth, how can you prove that Sikhism really exists.

Now there is another question which I have posed earlier to CM and Rani (unfortunately haven’t received any reply yet) that,
Question 3: How can you classify Sikhism as an independent religion?

In this rush hour, it’s next to impossible to find who is exactly on the right trail. Everyone claims that his ideology is the perfect one and his creed is the chosen one. I definitely agree with you on this point that Allah should come to each and everyone in his/her thought and tell him about his chosen religion – the right path.

Whats stopping him?

Well to establish a communication with Allah,

First, one should have a belief that there is something called Allah the one and only, the Most Beneficent, the most Merciful.
Secondly, one should be receptive at heart, i.e. a pure and sincere mind, free from worldly stuff.
Thirdly, along with honest heart, one must also pose this question to Allah, to guide him on the path of the righteous (in your case the path of Guru jee).

Your sincere prayers are the only means to communiqué with Allah.

**A strange phenomenon took place in the deserts of Arabia, when hundred and thousands of the dead become alive within a few days, and those who had been corrupted through generations took a Divine color. The blind began to see, and the tongue of the dumb began to flow with Divine wisdom. Such a revolution took place in the world as no eye had seen and no ear had heard of before.

Do you realize what this was?

All this was bought about by the prayers during the darkness of nights of one who had been wholly lost in God, this created an uproar in the world and manifested such wonders as seemed impossible at the hands of that unlettered helpless person (sa).

O Allah! Send down blessings and peace on him and on his followers in proportion to his concern and suffering for his Ummah, and shower upon him the light of Thy mercy for ever.**

This is the power what a heartfelt prayer holds.

Thankyou.

Zalim bhai, you are a nice guy, a friend of a friend of mine.

Why do you feel this fortnightly itch to prove things about your faith and others' faith? God and religion are a matter of faith. My religion and faith is as much provable/or unprovable as much yours or anyone else's. Although everyone believes it otherwise. Take 'faith' part out of any religion and you will see it crumble to ground. Since everyone has faith in only one religion, every other religion seems bullshit to them.

Ik ne kahi, Duje ne maani,
Nanak Kahen, Dono Gyani.

is not any way associated with Nanak. It is one of those kahawats that has been devised by people by bringing Kabir, Farid, Nanak etc's names in it. Although you were so quick to figure out that dhir is a Sikh as soon as he uttered Nanak's name even in a joking manner. He might be. But looks like you were busy spoting another Sikh on the forums to ask your questions.

You seem to be very iterested in comparison of your religion and other religions. Why is it so? Don't you have enough 'faith' in your religion that you have to put down other religions so that you can feel better about your faith? To me it looks like you have read some biased literature and got some material that falls in line with your pre-conceived views and you think you have figured it all out. Its not that easy my friend.

Let me give you a tip as a friend of a friend. You know what "amlaN baajh nabaiRha nai" or "othey amlaN de hon'ge nabaiRhay, kise nai teri zaat puchhni" means. If God exists and you have faith in your religion, you are wasting your time about thinking too much about this stuff. Its like getting directions to go from point A to point B from one source and then keeping checking it against 'directions' from other sources and comparing them and keep saying "see this direction is better that the others, see it is better than others" It very well might be but as long as you don't damn start the car and drive, it won't take you from point A to point B. and If you don't go from point A to point B, it does not matter how good the directions was. or does it? Do the 'amal' and get the happiness of your God. what you are doing is not 'amal' but it is a mental masturbation to satisfy your ego, which got inflated during the act of reading some books on religion.

You don't get religious by proving the 'absoluteness' of your religion but by following its principles.

Regarding your 3 questions. They can be asked about any religion and aalams/ullama in that religion will successfully answer those because we humans have a way of creating the explainations after a event has happened, in a way to justify it. If one believes in that religion, he will be satisfied with the explainations if he does not have faith in that religion, he will keep asking for 'proof' and will never be satisfied. Hence you are debating a non-issue.

I hope I was clear enough to put forth my views although I am sure I was sincere enough in my heart.

CM

TO dhir and ChannMahi:

First and foremost CM, this is a forum for Religion or religious forum in case you don't know. So here religion(s) will be discussed not your personal life.

You have unsuccessfully tied to imitate some one who has access to brain. Let me ask you few questions about (both of yours) your religions or whatever your faith is?

***WHAT YOUR RELIGION SAYS ABOUT EDUCATIONS?

DOES YOUR RELIGION/GOD/GURU/BOOK OFFERS/PROVIDES CEREMONIAL LAWS?

DOES YOUR RELIGION/GOD/GURU/BOOK PROVIDES/OFFERS LAWS OF LIFE?

Why your holy book is not filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy and the spirit of liberty? If it is where?

Why your holy book is not opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to ignorance, credulity and superstition?

Why your holy book does not develop the brain and civilize the heart?

Why your holy book's morality is not the highest, the purest?

Why your faith/religion/book does not have laws and regulations for the control of conduct to be just, wise, perfect, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of the ends desired?***

This acid test will give you are reality check which wouldn't bounce this time. You were quick to jump on zalim with your rhetoric. Let me see what you got. You simply cannot answer any of the above questions that proves your faith/religion to be perfect. I can answer all of them with facts, forensic, and empirical results supported with reason and logic. I dare challenge you to prove something against Islaam/Quran with facts. You know what you can't. And that is the bottom line.

Your profound ignorance to Islaam and Noble Quran is amazing. This is about time you must augment your studies with the revealed and inspired message that is to be found in the Final Revelation of God The Noble Quran. Which will enable you to compare both religions and books with an open mind. You must get out of your inherited tunnel vision that you all have so firmly established for centuries. It equally goes to all others as well.


Irrefragable
Islaam Is The *ONLY Solution :)*****And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. Noble Quran 3:85*

[This message has been edited by Irrefragable (edited March 29, 2000).]

You must get out of your
inherited tunnel vision that you all have so firmly established for centuries. It equally goes to all others as well.<<

I hope that applies to you too.

On a second thought let me answer some of your questions.

WHAT YOUR RELIGION SAYS ABOUT EDUCATIONS?

education very bad! particualrly for girls.

       **DOES YOUR RELIGION/GOD/GURU/BOOK OFFERS/PROVIDES CEREMONIAL LAWS?**

no! we devise our own as we go. last week I created a new ceremony to get married. I will use it next time I marry.

      ** DOES YOUR RELIGION/GOD/GURU/BOOK PROVIDES/OFFERS LAWS OF LIFE?**

No. Its kind of sad we don't know how to live as a result.

      ** Why your holy book is not filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy
       and the spirit of liberty? If it is where? **

Damn who needs intelligence. hell with justice, purity, honesty. Cut everyones head off and cage the rest in chicken sheds. thumbs down with liberty.

     **  Why your holy book is not opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to
       ignorance, credulity and superstition? **

Why oppose them? they are such beautiful concepts. I mean the book is full of instructions on how to prepare for war, how to make slaves and use your lust to rape women and how ignorance and superstition can make you so happy. I cann't imagine a holy book without these concepts. hard to believe that there might be some.

      ** Why your holy book does not develop the brain and civilize the heart?**

Brain?? duh!! we don't have it. why civilize the heart when we can have more fun being uncivil?

      ** Why your holy book's morality is not the highest, the purest? **

I agree. I mean last time I measured its height it was below sea level. Can you beleive that? but don't worry we are trying to raise it. I hope they buy that centifugal machine (that milk-men use to separate milk from water), may be we can make it more pure by separating the dirt out of it.

      ** Why your faith/religion/book does not have laws and regulations for the control of
       conduct to be just, wise, perfect, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of
       the ends desired?**

You lost me there. what was it again? Ends desired?? To tell you the truth, i don't desire anymore ends.

CM

PS:Can you prove that I said anything against Quran or Islam in this thread while addressing Zalim Bhai? and I want forensic, empirical, scientific, pracitcal and DNA evidence OK! and also where did I say I am aalam of religion? Islam or any other?

Ok I admit I am not good at quotation. Anyhow whoever 'dhir' is, I am addressing Sikhs (Hindus will come next).

CM the keyword for my religion is “TASKHIR” meaning ‘search’. And yours is “kuain ka maindak” meaning ‘STUCKED’ to one single point. Can’t see, cant feel can’t accept anything good or bad outside your inflexible and intolerant beliefs. Jo kuch hai usi pay qanaát kero aisa na ho kay wo bhi haath say jaáy – thats what you are afraid of. Dont you believe in God and the power of prayers? Why not ask him to guide you on the right track (unless if you want to), instead of accusing others and trying to hide yourself behind lame excuses.

You say; “If one believes in that religion, he will be satisfied with the explanations if he does not have faith in that religion, he will keep asking for 'proof' and will never be satisfied”. >> I call this the death of a religion when an individual cant scrutinize his own faith in the light of intellectual abilities which God has given him, on the other hand he is following it very blindly, naming this as “satisfaction”. Singh jee ‘Delusion’ (false belief) is the biggest misfortune a human can possess. Your thoughts are quite primitive.

Friend of my dear friend, just remember there is absolutely no difference between a member of a CULT group and a BLIND FOLLOWER of a faith.

In short you don’t have any evidence to justify your ideology, just playing around with verbosity, however trying to hold the nose the other way round.

[PS: Bustier & Irrefrigeable, move your butt now]

Sikh religion is neither intolerent nor inflexible. In fact, militarization in Sikh faith was a struggle against intolerence of u know who.
The faiths who have burnt libraries and universities, which make education a crime (there was interesting news in NYTimes on how women have to hide and try to learn in Taliban regime), which makes changing faith punishable by death, which does not want a slightest change in laws which might be applicable to 1400 yr. old society, are giving others lessons in critical thinking and tolerence.

First accept my apologies for entering this thread so late. Now to the topic of the thread: In reply to dhir's query. I do not find a single sentence which I can say is a reply to my query. This is called seeing what you want to see only. Instead I am flooded with counter questions. The crux of my ideas is this that I do not see any other religion challenging other religions except Islam, which tells about the aggressive nature of this religion. No other religion teaches spread of their religion by use of force, except of course in Islam. And finally the question in my post which has been quoted here is 'How do you know Allah is a Muslim, give a logical reply which is allowed in your relgion and as refirgrator has said: "Let me see what you got. You simply cannot answer any of the above questions that proves your faith/religion to be perfect. I can answer all of them with facts, forensic, and empirical results supported with reason and logic. I dare challenge you to prove something against Islaam/Quran with facts. You know what you can't. And that is the bottom line"

b.t.w. my intention is not to challenge quran or islam because I know it is a good religion, for that matter all religions are good, only the followers leave the chosen path.

Then to my question about what's stopping Allah to tell each and every human being about his presence your reply was very vague and can be given by any relgion, hindu, sikh, christian, etc.just remove Allah from the statement and replace it with God, Bhagwan, or whatever and you will have it. For your ready reference: You said:
In this rush hour, it’s next to impossible to find who is exactly on the right trail. Everyone claims that his ideology is the perfect one and his creed is the chosen one. I definitely agree with you on this point that Allah should come to each and everyone in his/her thought and tell him about his chosen religion – the right path.

Then you go on to say that:
*Well to establish a communication with Allah, First, one should have a belief that there is something called Allah the one and only, the Most Beneficent, the most Merciful.
Secondly, one should be receptive at heart, i.e. a pure and sincere mind, free from worldly stuff.
Thirdly, along with honest heart, one must also pose this question to Allah, to guide him on the path of the righteous (in your case the path of Guru jee).>>> Your sincere prayers are the only means to communiqué with Allah. *

Can you tell me any religion in the world which does not believe in the almighty, you prefer calling it Allah and that is the only difference. Rest of the statement is true for any religion.

Now the classical question once again; why do you feel the need to prove to others that yours is the best religion. If it is, others will follow in any case and you don't have to force-convert them.

Zalim and Refrigator

you should read about other religions before asking meaningless questions. What do you think of following interview of Anwar Shaikh. Anwar lives in England and his essay's were published in England.

Title: Anwar Shaikh of Great Britain (Interview)
Author: Dr. Ranjit Kanwar

(First published in the Chandigarh Times, India)

R. Kanwar: We have heard your name in India, yet we do not
know much about you. Will you tell me something about
yourself?

A. Shaikh: I was born in 1928 in a village near the city of Gujrat (Pakistan). Religion has been part of my family tradition. Naturally, I was brought up to be a scholar of Islam. To the best of my knowledge, it was my great grand father, who had embraced Islam. He was a Kashmiri Pandit. After conversion, he became an Imam-i-Masjid, a fervent preacher of Islam. My grandfather was conscious of his Brahmin ancestry, and resented if anyone spoke ill of the
Vedas yet he could not return to his roots owing to the psychological grounding he had received over the years.

In Pakistan, I was a teacher and then became headmaster of a high school. Though economically life was bearable, socially
it was not. I emigrated to Great Britain in 1956. After initial hardships, I struck lucky. At the height of business success, I suddenly realized that I wanted to do some
reformative work instead of indulging in money-making. It was in 1978 that I started winding up my commercial activities and am glad that I did so because it gave me a
chance to re-educate myself, especially in philosophy and religion.

Kanwar: I have read your book, "Islam - The Arab National Movement" which is becoming world famous rapidly. Did you write it to oppose Islam?

Shaikh: Its purpose is not to oppose but to expose Islam: it is a serious work based on long research and personal
experience. There is not one word of lie, insolence or intentional misrepresentation in this book. Since it is based on truth and nothing but the truth, it is an open
challenge to those who use Islam as the tool for personal gain, politically and religiously.

So great is the force and authenticity of this book that no Muslim scholar has come forward so far to refute its contents.

Kanwar: Are you another Rushdie?

Shaikh: I am being labelled as such. For example, the Urdu Daily Pakistan and Weekly Maharat of Lahore, have called me
"a satan of much greater stature than Rushdie and Taslima," and the Daily Jang of London has described me, "a Rushdie
whose writings are infinitely more dangerous to Islam than Rushdie and Taslima put together." The Muslim readers of the Jang have written to that newspaper repeatedly begging the mullahs and other scholars of Islam to answer my questions to "save" Islam but they have deliberately kept quiet to the
utter annoyance of the believers, who are really worried bythe contents of "Islam - The Arab National Movement." They had demonstrated against Rushdie in every country through public meetings,processions, slogans and murders, but about my book they have wilfully observed a conspiracy of silence because they do not want the world to know the truth about Islam. This clearly shows that I am the exact opposite of
Rushdie. His work is fiction based on insult to the Prophet Muhammad and his family, whereas my book is a serious work founded on scholarship, reason and research. At the most,Rushdie is an artistic protestor hereas I am a challenger to the very concept of Islam.

Kanwar: I see. But has your book any relevance to India?

Shaikh: My book has relevance to the entire mankind but it has especial relevance to India because before the coming of Islam, India was a prosperous, peaceful and proud country, which has not only been reduced to extreme poverty and ignorance by the Muslim predators and the Islamic rule, but has also been fragmented into geographical and political units.

The book clearly demonstrates that, as Islam seeks to impose Arab cultural imperialism on other nations through a doctrine of divide and murder, India and Islam cannot live
together. This book is a must for India.

Kanwar: Do you realize that this book exposes you to serious danger? Aren't you afraid?

Shaikh: Truth has its price which I am prepared to pay. I have not resorted to swearing or falsification simply to
uphold the dignity of truth. Fear is a part of human nature and it will be wrong of me to deny it. However, I must add that by making me a martyr, they will sound the death-knell of Islam.

Kanwar: It is a revolutionary book with profound
consequences. What prompted you to write it?

Shaikh: This is an excellent question and proves your competence as a journalist. Having lived in the West for such a long time, one day it crossed my mind why the white
people love their countries but the Muslims of India hate their Motherland. There is no exaggeration in it because they think of Bharat not as their Motherland but Darul Harb
i.e. the battlefield, where people murder, plunder and deceive out of hatred and greed. Having given this point further thought I soon realized that Islam was based on the
doctrine of hating and murdering non-Muslims and reducing them to the status of political slaves. It is totally false to say that Islam is the ambassador of international
brotherhood. Again, it is completely untrue that the Muslims of all countries are one nation. It is the law of nature that nationality is constituted by blood ties and
geographical boundaries, that is, the homeland. A nation being an expanded form of family, is subject to the familial rules of identity. Of course, a person can adopt another nationality quite legitimately but it is an exception and therefore cannot change the basic rule. Calling Muslims of
all countries as one nation is wrong because all these nations have their separate homelands with their independent interests and different policies. Pakistan was soon split into two halves, i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh. The government of Pakistan in 1951 stopped entry of all Indian Muslims into Pakistan despite the fact that they were the people who had made most sacrifices for the creation of Pakistan; even more shameful is the treatment of Pakistanis

from Bihar, who stood by Pakistan against the Bangladeshis.

Muslim nationality is a myth which is extremely injurious to the non-Arab Muslims but highly beneficial to the Arabs. And
this is what leads to the inevitable conclusion that Islam is not a religion but the Arab National Movement.

Kanwar: Good Lord! Is it what Islam is? Do you mind explaining this point a bit further?

Shaikh: The philosophy that lies behind Islam is stunning and proves the consummate political skill of the Prophet Muhammad: by declaring all Muslims as one nation and the non-Muslims as another, he created the Two Nation Theory perpetually setting Muslims against non-Muslims. Again, he stressed that in this struggle the Muslims would be victorious. This is exactly the theory Karl Marx had adopted after many centuries. Presenting his dialectical view of
history he emphasized that all material progress owed itself to eternal social strife between the capitalists and the
proletariats, in which the latter would win the struggle.

However, Karl Marx did not show the mastery that the Prophet Muhammad did: by creating the Two Nation Theory, he subjected all non-Arab Muslims to the cultural imperialism
of Arabia. He achieved this purpose with a mind boggling subtlety: he made Arab-worship the cornerstone of Islam. Thus, those who embrace Islam naturally feel inferior to
Arabia as a devotee believes in relation to his Goddess.

Kanwar: This is an unusual explanation of Islam. Can you tell me how the Prophet Muhammad raised the reverence of Arabia sky-high and made it an article of faith for his non-Arab followers?

Shaikh: Here is a small summary of steps the Prophet took to realize his dream:
1. He declared that when Adam was evicted from paradise, he came to Mecca where he built the first House of God. Thus he
identified Godliness with Kaaba, a Sanctuary of Mecca where God lives! Not only that, Abraham, the Jewish patriarch,also came to Mecca to rebuild the House of God!

  1. For the purpose of imposing Arab psychological superiority on non-Arab Muslims, he decreed that they must
    prostrate five times a day facing Mecca. This is not only an act of submission to Mecca, the capital city of Arabia, but
    also proves beyond a shadow of doubt that God lives in Mecca; otherwise why should people prostrate in that direction?

  2. A Muslim must not defecate himself or answer the call of nature facing Mecca. It is a blasphemous act in view of the sanctity of Mecca.

  3. When Muslims die, they must be buried facing Mecca, which is the guarantee of their salvation.

  4. To make sure that the Arabs enjoy economic opulence, the Prophet made Hajj an obligatory ritual for his followers. It is a pilgrimage to Mecca. There are countless Indian Muslims who sell their homes and personal belongings to undertake this journey. I can give many examples to this effect but it is enough to explain the real purpose of Islam.

Kanwar: It does show the Arab national tendency of Islam;but the non-Arab followers of Islam do not have to adopt a slavish attitude to the Arab national Institutions to prove their Islamic faith. Do they?

Shaikh: I regret to say, Sir, like countless non-Muslims,you do not know the master stroke of the Prophet.

Kanwar: I have never heard of this master stroke before. Can you enlighten me in the interest of humanity?

Shaikh: I am referring to the Prophet's declaration thatAllah has made him the Model of Practice for his followers. It has come to mean that the Muslims must copy him in
everything; they must eat, drink, walk and talk like him, even must look like him, that is, they grow beard like his, have a similar hair-cut and dress like him.

This is what is called following the Sunnah, i.e. the Prophetic Model which is the guarantee of salvation. One can easily say that Islam has been designed to induce love and respect for Arabia. There are express commands of the Prophet, which state that a person is not a Muslim until he loves him more than his own father and mother. The idea is that people must be weaned away from their own nationalities and motherlands and attached firmly to Mecca. This is the reason that the Muslims of India call their own homeland as the battlefield and Arabia the fountain of peace and celestial glory.

Now, it is perhaps, easy for you to understand why theMuslims of India partitioned their own Motherland for
practicing the Arab cultural values in Pakistan (and Bangladesh).

Kanwar: What is likely to happen if the non-Arab Muslims do not follow the Prophet in loving Arabia even if it involves unpatriotic practices against their own homelands?

Shaikh: The Muslims must love Arabia because the Prophet did so. They must follow him as the Divine Model of Practice. This is what Islam expects; if they don't, they are sure to enter hell because the Prophet will not intercede on their behalf.

Kanwar: What is intercession?

Shaikh: This is the special power of the Prophet Muhammad. He will recommend paradise for his followers on the Day of Judgement. His recommendation is final and Allah cannot deny it. It is available to all murderers, rapists, arsonists, cheats, thugs, pickpockets and pimps provided they are
followers of the Prophet.

On the contrary, all Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Christians will be cast into a flaming hell, no matter, how pious and God-fearing they may have been; piety has no meaning and value
without believing Muhammad and the greatness of his homeland.

Intercession is the climax of the Prophet's national wisdom. It is this Muslim belief which gives them the hope of free sex and economic abundance, and they feel obliged to kill in the name of Islam. This is why they are ever ready to stab their motherland. After all, caring about one's country
entails sacrifices whereas the comforts of paradise are sweet and splendid. And it is specially so when they involve no moral responsibility.

Kanwar: Poor India! "Islam - The Arab National Movement" seems to be the book, not only for every Indian, irrespective of religion, but also for every Pakistani and
Bangladeshi as well. After all, they all belong to the Indian subcontinent. What have you done to propagate its contents?

Shaikh: By writing this book, I have discharged my duty. Its propagation, I believe, is a duty of everyone.

Kanwar: Will you be prepared to allow translations of this book into various languages without expecting any financial
reward?

Shaikh: I shall be delighted to do so provided such task is undertaken for public good and not as a trade.

Kanwar: What is the price of the book and can people get in touch with you?

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
Sikh religion is neither intolerent nor inflexible. In fact, militarization in Sikh faith was a struggle against intolerence of u know who.
The faiths who have burnt libraries and universities, which make education a crime (there was interesting news in NYTimes on how women have to hide and try to learn in Taliban regime), which makes changing faith punishable by death, which does not want a slightest change in laws which might be applicable to 1400 yr. old society, are giving others lessons in critical thinking and tolerence.

[/quote]

Did you consider the fact that Newyork Times is a Jewsih newspaper and totally anti Islam and Muslims before you posted the prejudicial message.[Prejudice is an opinion without judgement] Do you know that when it comes to religion and theology you cannot make a point with secular references. Talibans have not changes, fact is their did not change. Where was NY Times when CIA was training Taliban in USA and Afghanistan, at that time NY Times published a lot of positive articles about them. Since the cold war is over, Talibans kicked Russia's ass out of Afghanistan. So suddently Talibans are bad. Your Hindu hate is obvious against Islam and Muslims. Can you prove your bullshit claims with facts? I don't think so. *Which faith has burned down the libraries? You have not proved your stupid point. Where is your proof? Making vague and ambigious statements without supporting them with facts/sources makes you only an idiot. which you did sucessfully. Don't forget the Babari Mosque, you people burned down. Now your people are burining Churches in India. You conveniently forgot to mention this in your post.


Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited March 30, 2000).]

Buster

A good demo how religious fanatics try to silence everybody...kill them, if that is not possible over the net, use obscenities. Nobody will or has killed me or chased me out of India for questioning Hindu or
Sikh beliefs.

No Hindu or Sikh participant on the forum has used profanities or abused a participants (in such a gutter language) for asking questions about Hinduism or Sikhism.

Your use of profanities only reflects on your lack of confidence in your belief system.

Moderator, Can I request one thing. I know everybody has right to come on and give his openion but please make sure they take a shower before they get on the board. ** WHAT IS THIS BAD SMELL HERE, IT WAS NOT HERE BEFORE ** may be somebodies Bubble was busted, maann it is smelly....

Zalim, the difference between you and me is that you feel proud criticizing and putting down my religion based on your own perceptions of my religion while I am criticizing your persistent behaviour to do so without criticizing and putting down your religion.

Can’t see, cant feel can’t accept
anything good or bad outside your inflexible and intolerant beliefs.

Look who is saying it? Zalim dear you are the one who are asking for proofs of my religion not other way around. I accept you and your religion as they exist with out any proof, regardless of my opinions on it being good or bad. That makes you intolerant not me.

Dont
you believe in God and the power of prayers?

I do believe in God and power in prayers. I remember God everyday and thank him for everything that he has provided me in my life and pray for the things that I don't have and pray to show me the right path of justice, fairness and happiness in my life and be good onto others and my self.

So am I good enough or not? oh..sorry I forgot I need to submit to your way of thinking before I can be good and on the 'right path'. Never mind!

I call this the death of a religion when an individual cant scrutinize his own
faith in the light of intellectual abilities which God has given him,

You are not scrutinising your religion in the light of intellectual abilities but you are doing it to other religions with you little knowledge of them.
Your problem is that anyone who accepts you as you are and is tolerant towards your belief, you think is weak, stupid and coward. If I don't ask for proof from you about your religiona nd God, does not mean you are all set to thump on your chest and shout idiots on everyone else. God and religion are not Trignometry theorums that can be proven with all those evidences you are talking about. Good luck with that line of thinking and see how for it can take you in life.

Finally, I have said it before and I reiterate again, I am not very religious person in the traditional sense of the word. I also don't have great knowledge of the scriptures and history. so you can call me ignorant and not knwoledable but thats does not give you the right to call me stupid and put down the religion I was born in.

CM

I have been following a lot of the posts from our new brothers here, Bubble Buster and Irrefragable. Just look at who initially starts this crap, lets be fair and honest

Irrefragable initially posted in a topic

Islaam has abrogated all previous religions. If you believe in anything other than book are true come and bring your proof. Universal message of Islaam has put all Islaam, you must save yourself from eternal hellfire. If you think your religion and other books and religions in basket # 13. Fact is that Judaism and Christianity have no divine inspiration; so does the names Jews and Christians. Do you know that Jesus (P) was an Arab Muslim.

Now tell me, us being muslims, did he say anything so horrible or terrible???

look at the replies from the real smell and garbage from this forum to the above post.


Jesus was a Jew. Sulman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen are Muslim. You both are schmuks.

Refrigerator, would you please ever show us a proof that your brain is bigger than a single green pea? because all teh evidence you have put forward so for is contrary to that.

Get a life you losers!!! you call yourself civilized?? or Pakistani?? do you even know why Pakistan was created??? WHo the hell are you to apply ISLAMIC TAQWA to them, look at yourselves you idiots, suddenly islamic manners become so signifigant now huh?? assholes!!!!
My style is also not to bash other faiths and religions, or even people, but why the hell should we keep quiet and let you say your crap? some non-muslims here are very respectable and behave decently towards islam. But others..............

So, BB and IRR, all I can say is, dont hold back, don't treat the crap here with civilized behaviour, treat them like the animals that they are, thinking they are so bright and civilized and decent, what a joke!!. Degrading our beloved ISLAM, our beloved prophets, our beloved Quran.
The crap here dont deserve any respect, and they dont get it either, this life or hereafter so throw all the shit and gaali in their face like they deserve, looking at some of their faces , it looks as though it has been done already all their pathetic lives. I guess now we know where the real smell comes from and who really needs a shower.

Salaam brothers and please stick around..

[This message has been edited by STRONGMAN (edited March 30, 2000).]

RANI,

How interesting that you have pasted an interview by "Anwar Shaikh" the elusive supposed former muslim. This interview can be found on some of the most rabid anti-islam sites run by Hindutva idealists. If you like I can provide you with a direct link to your article. I wonder why you go to such web sites?

Anyway, unless you can prove that "Anwar Shaikh" is a genuine person and not the concoction of some frustrated RSS zealot then I would ask you to refrain from bringing such junk here. If you can prove he exists by providing a link to a picture, testimony of friends or family, old school teacher - anything, then you can post whatever you like. I'm sure I can find something juicy in the vedas if you want to go down that road.

jai hind.

Strongman, NYA's post came long after refrigerator and BB had spread enough s**t around and had established their credentials.
The point is we are all desis, and have encountered roadside rowdies sometime or other, though such morons giving religious sermons is rather new. If it comes to pissing match, people can get to that level too. But they do not see worth it. Thus refigerator and BB dont get replies. When they dont get replies, they increse the level of abusing.

Strongman writes:

Irrefragable initially posted in a topic

Islaam has abrogated all previous religions. If you believe in anything other than book are true come and bring your proof. Universal message of Islaam has put all Islaam, you must save yourself from eternal hellfire. If you think your religion and other books and religions in basket # 13. Fact is that Judaism and Christianity have no divine inspiration; so does the names Jews and Christians. Do you know that Jesus (P) was an Arab Muslim.

Now tell me, us being muslims, did he say anything so horrible or terrible???<<<<<<<

Abrogation of all religions, hellfire for all non-Muslims (how about Hellfire for all Muslims?), Christianity and Jews without divinity (How about Islam with a false book?). Do these things mean anything to you? or are you born with Islamic blindfold on your eyes like your other brothers.

Xtreme,

I'm sure I can find something juicy in the vedas if you want to go down that road.<<

If I recall correctly you and others have posted lot of juicy detail about Hinduism including completly absurd one about eating women's parts etc-Buster's post is full of some of the juicy details plus profanities.

Why don't you refute what Anwar says rather then worrying whether he exists or not? I can assure you that no Hindu or Sikh can have such deep knowledge of Koran that Anwar has.

I will post his picture when I have more time.

Strongman,

It is amazing you cannot see anything wrong with intoleration towards others and calling yourself superior at the expense of others degrading their religious books and assigning them to hell fire if they don't follow your philosphy.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 30, 2000).]

NYA wrote: >>or are you born with Islamic blindfold on your eyes like your other brothers

thay may be true, but since ur mirza qadyani has enlightened u well enuf with his "divine revelations", don't worry 'bout Muslims being natural born Islamic blindfolded, take a stroll.

Rani wrote: >>I can assure you that no Hindu or Sikh can have such deep knowledge of Koran that Anwar has

huh???.....where in his so called interview does it reflect his ability and "knowledge" of Koran???

>>I will post his picture when I have more time

before cracking yet another joke on the religion forum, make sure in his photo, he's not wearing a turban!

KK.. OK I was wrong to say that. You are paydaishi idiots, and Islam has nothing to do with that. Save the hellfire for yourself, and have your self abrogated, leave others alone. Go count Islami Firkay before coming and educating others about your filth. Go solve your own differences. What firka are you from?