So what is your idea of immorality? What people from there consider immoral is not considered immoral here.
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Since I am a person of faith I let my deen define what is moral/immoral.
If a certain thing is seen as impermissible in society yet in Islam it is permissible that would be fine with me whereas if something was seen as permissible in society and in Islam it was impermissible that would be wrong for me to indulge in.
Not saying I am perfect in anyway but I let the Quran and Sunnah help me define and pave the pathway to develop good morals and conduct. And it helps me define right from wrong.
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So if someone drinks, has a girlfriend doesn’t pray etc is that person in your opinion immoral?
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I usually don’t judge other people’s morality or choices nor do I have the right to do so.
But if I was someone who drank, had a boyfriend and didn’t pray then I would feel like I wasn’t following my faith and conducting the best behaviour. Morality is a particular set of values that determines conduct and because of my personal beliefs and views on faith I would not be conducting myself in the best of ways.
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So what happens when religious and societal values clash? What are your views about subjective morality and cumulative morality. Many religious people would believe in absolute morality and not subjective.
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The bolded part for me too but I’ll just add that in addition to myself not indulging in them, I wouldn’t let myself be a means of others to do indulge in it either. For instance, I wouldn’t buy or serve alcoholic beverages to others in addition to not partaking in it myself.
However, I won’t judge others according to my own morals. So if a non-Muslim were to drink or eat something haram for me, I wouldn’t look down on them for it.
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^ me too
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So maybe let me amp up this provocative discussion, so this girl Julia who is best friends with my boy is a bi, is very liberal and had scores of relationships, drinks, parties etc yet she has so many concerns for the environment and animals that she chose to be a vegan and also does fundraising for charity and volunteers etc, to my eyes she is more moral than a lot of people I know who perform their religious duties but don’t do anything to make this world a better place.
So what are your views on that?
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My view is that you should marry the Julia, Baaby Pai. Seems like you are feeling a stronger romuntik connection with her than your wazifa-reading, dua-making, roza-rakhing Kashmiran.
Here you are again, under yet another username…engaging in the same ole dirty tricks that got you booted out of here so many times before. This is no open discussion on morality. This is what you see as another (failed) opportunity at attacking Muslims…and you might try to poorly conceal it with your anecdotes of how you helped Salma the Muslim get a job …or how you gave Rukhsana the intern a good reference…or how you helped Farhan the newbie at work increase his list of clients. But the contempt for religious people…and especially Muslims…is defo there. What are you even doing on this forum? 
As the Prophet SAWS said, “If you don’t have shame, then do whatever you want.” So, Bobsy…do whatever the hell you want. Encourage fornication. Drink all you want. Applaud those who are just as lax as you. And then make yourself feel reallly goood by reminding yourself and everyone in the virtual world of your x number of charitable deeds.
A religious person with a sound mind knows that you cannot use your good deeds to diminish the gravity of vices like zina, drinking, gambling, etc etc. You won’t understand that. And just like your former multis…you will be back soon with a slew of “extreme” examples of religious people…because your ulti khopri just cannot seem to grasp the concept of a middle ground…where the average Muslim is a flawed but decent person who does manage to do many good deeds that Bobby Pai did not get to witness with his own eyeballs because Bobby Pai cannot jhaank into every Muslim’s life and see what goes on in their lives 24/7.
It’s pretty telling when even other atheists and non-religious people like Queer, Deeba…can see through your posts. It’s embarrassing, really.
When a person does not believe in a God, does not credit God for the blessings bestowed upon him, does not believe in making dua…then concepts like “morality” “sin” “sawab” “hereafter” will make no sense to him whether be “amps up the pravaakative question” with a Muslim, Christian, etc etc.
This is just another one of your lame attempts at provoking/challenging/looking down upon Muslims and making yourself feel good about your refusal to pray and refusal to adhere to guidelines that are found in many religious. You want a pat on your back from the religious folks for all the “good” you’ve done in your life? You want us religious people to make you feel validated…to tell you that it’s A-okay to not follow the rules laid out by Islam so long as you’re helping this person and that person and cleaning the environment? We religious folks are just ordinary, flawed human beings just like yourself, Bob. If you want that “approval” that you are a good and moral person…then you should seek your approval from a much higher authority…like God and His word…that is if you believe in Him. And if you don’t …then run along…and seek that applause from like-minded non-religious folks like yourself. Nuss jaa… Go ask Julia to give you a thumbs up or a shabashi.
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Okay I ll answer from a religious point of view , a person with good morals/values is someone who practices religion, at the very least the five pillars and also has good manners . Religiously speaking manners, compassion and caring for others is also really important and can be a means to jannah. God has said to be kind , has given great importance of being merciful to those on earth. These things are very important, but they are not the only things that are important and wont protect you from hell ,alone.I dont think so, the rest Allah knows best.
The world is a temporary place. Its a place of test for all. Religiously at least. Some are tested by poverty and some buy wealth. So someone who only really cared about the world and the people of the world and was not paying much attention to the one who created it all . Is being disrespectful, in a sense to the creator. That is wrong. So you would not say they had great moral /values. Something is lacking. And that’s the importance of paying respect, buy worshipping and obeying the One who made it all and runs the entire show.We are always at Gods mercy , no matter how much we take care of ourselves and those around us , if He does not want something to happen , it wont happen. We were born healthy, because that was His will . To be born in countries where you have choices and opportunists etc etc again was His will. If he did not give as these means, we would not have them. It is only morally correct to pay our respects aur show our gratitude by acknowledging all that He does for us , by worshipping him and thanking Him , like He has asked us too. That is only right. You would not say someone was completely a “good” person with complete moral values unless they did that. At least from a religious point of view.It is like not thanking someone who is doing so much for you and keeps doing so much for you and not obeying because you find that it restricts your life and your means of temporary fun. Its rejecting something meaningful and lasting over petty things , that wont be there one day, morally you would not say,that’s right. Having good values , would mean valuing the creator,through worship, that is giving you the gift of life and that will be with you once this life is over.
Yes from a worldly point of view someone like julia is a good person.If i was to met such a person I would call them good. For myself though, I would judge myself in the light of religion and would check to see if my moral and values are leading me to jannah . That would not be the case if they were not in accordance with what God has said. It is not up to us to judge though, we can direct , we can guide by what we have been taught but we don;t know what Allah knows. We don’t now His people like he know s them, Allah is just , he knows what we don’t know ,sees what we cant see, also knows what is best and he will deal with things in accordance to his Justice , not ours. So judging is up to Allah.I am a firm believer in to each their own.
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The way you believe your religion to be a fact in the same way a religious Christian believes in his religion, I dated a very strict Catholic and they thought only Catholics will go to heaven, My friend’s conservative hindu mom wouldn’t eat in our home as they think meat eaters are so immoral. So the way it is acceptable in this society is to not present your faith like it is an absolute truth or fact but as this is what I believe in and someone else believes in something else and as long as they are not hurting me and are doing good, they are good people.
How can one say that my God is the real God and the other guys God isn’t the real God.
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But then you chose to spend your life in the society created by people whom you think are immoral, if they really are that immoral why would one want to benefit from their social system, their schools, their hospitals, their judiciary, and infrastructure. As per logic, immoral people should create societies that are hell to live in. Do you know of societies which are hell to live in? So why dear did you chose the immoral society to live in? And also when people here ask you to go nuss jaa to a place where they are more like you would you nuss jaa there?
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As I mentioned before, I don’t judge others (especially non-Muslims) according to my own morals. However, I still say what is wrong is wrong, so in the context that you’re asking, as mentioned before it will be defined by my religious values. So the act of drinking, I’ll see as wrong. Same with have pre/extra marital relationships. Just because they are acceptable by the majority of society, this will not change for me. I will continue to avoid them and even teach my children that those things are wrong and are to be avoided.
Now to answer your question more directly, I would consider those who perform their religious duties (assuming they’re Muslim) but don’t do anything to make the world a better place as per your judgement, to be more moral. So for instance, I would take them as a role model for myself and my children over your Julia.
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Thank you for your response, provides a great insight and I subscribe to subjective morality so feel that it is for each individual to chose their morality and respect your right to chose your morality. I subscribe to cumulative morality like the founding of Red Cross. Henry Dunant would have cumulatively saved tens or even hundreds of millions of lives. So what if he practices a different faith than me. I don’t take Julia as Role model for my Children but I did take Rick (The President Of Our Club) who dedicated 20 yrs of his life in keeping the club going as a role model for myself. The respect and love they have as husband and wife for each other and the friendly relationship and bond he has with his Children. He had a prostate cancer surgery and 10 days later he was driving the club van 1200km away to buy a dragon boat for us.
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I’ll also mention that while I say that I would keep considering what I believe to be wrong to be wrong, I also readily appreciate and acknowledge the good done by anyone, regardless of whether they share my other values.
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@Bobby1 It is hightime that you do aaltu jalaaltu on redvelvet :madz:
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Brother no one claims that their God is real except Muslims, and if they do they are unaware of their scripture..
check this out…
and for hinduism, I hope these videos will do the complete work inshaALLAH..
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from a religious point of view they need to be obeying whoever they believe God is and then you d say they had good morals. if they were atheist then just doing good , is a good indicator. i think morality is subjective or maybe morality is personal. better put morality is a broad topic that has many areas, there are certain parts of morality that we might all agree on, dont kill people , live with compassion etc etc but there are other areas that might be more personal and subjective. so really who you may consider a completely “morally correct” and good person , i might not. However we might still agree that some of the qualities this person has are good and moral qualities.
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lol, you know way too much personal information about others. Whether they are your children’s friends or your co-workers wives.
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It’s like the analogy of a dog, Le Pak. Dogs go sniffing around in everyone’s business.
Bobby Ji seems to conveniently forget that many of the Goray folk that built the schools, roads, institutions, and systems that he is so grateful for…are Christians who believe that one must accept as Jesus as their saviour in order to attain salvation in the next life or else they’ll be roasting in hell-fire. I doubt that those some Goras would think that Bob the Builder qualifies as being “eternally saved” in the afterlife no matter how many houses he’s sold or how mean of a nihari he cooks.
But you see, Bob does not have a problem with the Christian faith…he only has a problem with the Muslim faith. He has conveniently forgotten…or perhaps he is simply not aware…that many of the RULES (no zina, no idolatory, no pork, no homosexuality, etc) that are found in Islam are also found in Christianity…mainly in the OLD Testament…which modern day Christians pretty much have chosen to ignore in exchange for the convenience of the more lenient, east-going brand of Christianity that…“Paul”…came up with …long after Jesus (AS).
So, what is Bob doing in a predominantly Christian society in which he would be considered “hell-bound”…in the next life? He simply continues to live in Canada…taking the good with the bad. Cuz that’s what people do …no matter what society or part of the world they live in…they appreciate the good in the midst of the bad. And if Bob is looking for 100% acceptance for his beliefs, then he should move to another planet…cuz he’s not gonna find it on Earth.
More power to members who can respond to him so calmly. But I can’t do it. Folks…those of you who have been on GS long enough…Bobby is none other than the former member Knight…and Sean…and Hottie. Yup all, multies of the same person who has been banned from GS sooooo many times in the past for initiating discussions where he looks down on Muslims.
Don’t be fooled by how he interjects a fatherly sounding “baita” for the members who applaud him or address him with more patience than I can ever manage.
You gotta be a real special kind of “bayghairat” if you’re gonna return to the same forum after getting banned 3-4 times for the same agenda…or as Bob prolly likes to see it…as “merely” an open-minded exchange of ideas on a “provocative” subject. A person who has mocked Pakistanis, Indians, Muslims, etc etc…really has no business being on this forum.