imma muslim first... and pakistani 2nd.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
I'm a Muslim and that's my identity.

PakistaniAbroad,

Your defeatist response proves you have no basis for an argument.

When Charles Kennedy accounts Blair. Blair doesnt say "if you dont like my policies then go back to scotland where you belong"
[/QUOTE]

why not? If this Kennedy guy is Scottish and proud of it.. then more power to him.. he has a land which is a part of UK.. this is more like some Punjab Chief Minister arguing with Wafaaq.. wrong analogy when it comes to these Arabobo sidekicks..

they ARE from Pakistan.. as that country gave their parents an identity and even them an identity cuz God knows the Arabobos don't give miskeens the passport (even if they ragaR their naak all their life at their doorsteps).. then they come back and bad mouth Pakistan in support of what?

where is this Ummah land.. who runs it? what does it do for you? does it issue u passports or id cards? can u travel to it? buy land there? seriously.. get real folks.

The citizens of Pakistan who put it second are traitors to their country. They are dis-honoring those brave soul's who paid with their lives so your sorry ass can live in Pakistan.

Go ask a Palestinian, Kosovar, Bosnian, Chechen, Phillipino Muslim and Chinese Muslim what their problem is. Why are these Muslims struggling for a country then if having that country means nothing...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xguru: *
The citizens of Pakistan who put it second are traitors to their country. They are dis-honoring those brave soul's who paid with their lives so your sorry ass can live in Pakistan.

Go ask a Palestinian, Kosovar, Bosnian, Chechen, Phillipino Muslim and Chinese Muslim what their problem is. Why are these Muslims struggling for a country then if having that country means nothing...
[/QUOTE]

I'd rather be a traitor to my country than be a traitor to God and his messenger. Those nations you mention are struggling for a country so that they can practise their religion in peace. Not because they want to see their picture in a green passport. And certainly not because they want to let the US trample all over them and use them as cannon fodder against other Muslims.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
..I'd rather be a traitor to my country than be a traitor to God ....
[/QUOTE]

People who betray their home, their town, their country are the biggest losers. How the heck can they be faithful to God if they $hit in their own kitchens. Only pigs do the $hit business in their feeding trough.

This statement is typical of the Kabulie Kommie Kabal (KKK). They burned their Kabul, Kandhar and Jalalabad. Now they want to burn down Peshawar, Kohat and Wana.

Damn Kabulies.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

People who betray their home, their town, their country are the biggest losers. How the heck can they be faithful to God if they $hit in their own kitchens. Only pigs do the $hit business in their feeding trough.

This statement is typical of the Kabulie Kommie Kabal (KKK). They burned their Kabul, Kandhar and Jalalabad. Now they want to burn down Peshawar, Kohat and Wana.

Damn Kabulies.
[/QUOTE]

I know you like the Na-Pak Army and all, but your obsession with $hit is alarming.

Kutay Kameenay Khanzeer (KKK) are the main problem of Pakistan. Religion was never an issue in what is now Pakistan before it became Pakistan and when it was not yet Pakistan. Everyone lived peacefully regardless of whom they prayed to. Masjids and Mandars lived side by side and both preached crap in their own way without trying to outdo one another. Inter-racial dating was very common and Sikhs girls would die for a Sialkoti boy with a Mole (that’s where the song “teray MukhRay tay kala Kala til way…” originated). Religious issue is an imported siht and only Allah knows where it came from. I guess it is there to deflect attention from other pressing issues like clean water (Islam doesn’t give clean water) good healthcare (you have to be a millionaire in Pakistan if you want to live with Diabetes; education (Islam doesn’t make Universities); and so on.

:jhanda:

Some idiots want to turn Pakistan into 6th century Arabooboo land.

:jhanda:

antiobl, PakistaniAbroad, xguru

Identity has nothing to do with ID cards etc, Identity is how you think, your ideals, something that unites people who share the same opinion on their identity.

A Pakistani Christian can have differing views on core matters with a Muslim from Pakistan whereas it doesn't matter whether a Muslim is from palestine to indonesia there is no difference in the core issues.

The Islamic identity is an ideological identity it is not a religious or nationalistic identity. An Ideology has a specific viewpoint on life which all the adherents of the ideology share. In Islam it is the viewpoint of Halal and Haram, in capitalism it is Benefit and Loss.

Nationalism is the lowest form of thought, it exists in animals and birds that guard a territory. It is divisive. It unites only when there is a threat which is why there is always a 'threat from India' and a threat from Pakistan in India. In America there is a threat from terrorists and before this there used to be the threat from the communists.

To simplify this for you, if a group of people that didnt get along lived together in a house and somebody threw a brick through the window all of them would go to see who attacked them.

As RasulAllah (saw) said in words to this effect that the one who calls for nationalism is not one of us and he (saw) also said that the one who calls for nationalism is like the dung beetle.

When you say there is no Ummah then you are standing as an opponent against Allah (swt) and RasulAllah (saw).

O you who believe, fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam. And hold fast all together by the rope of Allah and be not divided among yourselves.” [TMQ Al-e-Imran: 102- 103]

“This is a letter written from Muhammad, the Messenger, the Prophet of Allah to the Believing Muslims from Qura'ish and of the people of Yathrib and all that followed them and performed Jihad with them, they are one Ummah to the exclusion of all others.”

He (saw) said that the Muslim is the brother of a Muslim.

Even if we begin to entertain this false 'pakistani' identity. How does the idea 'Pakistani' solve any problems? what is the 'pakistani' economic system? what are pakistani sciences? there's no such thing.

Does disagreeing with a policy formed by the govt make someone a traitor? If it doesn't then why were protestors locked up and beaten for protesting against what is happening in Iraq. If it does then everyone on the opposition bench is a traitor. Even Busharraf himself is a traitor for opposing the govt and removing it.

Raihan you sound very thick. Nationalism is bad but Ummah is good? How so? Isn’t Ummah like multi-nationalism?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
...Identity has nothing to do with ID cards etc..., .....
[/QUOTE]

look buddy! The "ID" in ID card is a short form of "identity".

Oh wait a minute, people born in UK aloo stores do not have legal status so they don't have an ID card. Daggon it!

yes Raihan.. why are u dying to get together with your Arabobo 'brothers' when they don't want you!! why don't you stay in a place where you're welcome.. instead of trying to be like those who look down upon you becasue of your RACE.. yes.. RACE.. no one cares for this Ummah pipe dream more than those who will be sweeping streets in the Ummah lalaland as rafeeqs and miskeens should one become a reality

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xguru: *
The citizens of Pakistan who put it second are traitors to their country. They are dis-honoring those brave soul's who paid with their lives so your sorry ass can live in Pakistan.

[/QUOTE]

oh so now those who are dead in the strugle for pakistan somehow own me for doing something that was their obligation? i dont owe them any thing and neither do u. its just pathetic propaganda about "ancestors". just follow allah and his rasul and the sahabas and leave every one's actions to their own. those who died for pakistan did a very good deed but that doesnt make them my master, they will ger reward for their deeds and i will for mine. i wont be asked for what they did.

Teenday. Then if that was the case, why even creat a Nation? Are you suggesting that Jinnah was an idiot? In fact you are suggesting that Muslims shouldnt ask for nations no matter where they live, be it under Israeli occupation or in Russian Choochnia or Cash-meer. We think alike. Keep doing Mankay tay manka Thaa Manka and live under oppression. Allah will save your ass.

:jhanda:

Madhanee,

Ummah is a concept independent of a piece of land. The Islamic state has no borders only frontiers.

The concept of Ummah is related to the Islamic ideology as its uniting factor.

Wahdat not Ittehad

antiobl,

why don't you want to discuss? why do you ridicule everything that you don't agree with instead of producing an intellectual argument to prove you're right.

PakistaniAbroad,

Arabs don't have more right on Islam than non-Arabs. One Arab brother I want to be with when I die is RasulAllah (Saw)

why do you want to be with your hindu brothers?

You share a lot more with narrow minded arabs than you know. Think about it. They don't believe in Ummah, they believe in nationalism, they dont see Islam as a complete ideology..

The problem lies not with Muslims and Islam but with narrow minded arabs and pakistanis who don't even get along with each other even though they think the same.

So Raihan,

It seems that you are a nationalist as well. All you want is a country where all the Muslims in the world can live in. Why do you want to divide the world according to religion? History has shown that to be a disaster.

Even the Chaliphs couldn't keep the different tribes of Arabia together. They were all Muslim by and large. The Prophet had lived in their life time and yet they fought and murdered one another. Was that Islam's fault? I don't think so.

Islam is a religion like many other religions. It teaches an individual how to live a decent and moral life. It is a popular religion and people from all over the world have adopted it so that they can live their lives according to it's principles. Don't confuse it with culture and identity (the land where you have your home).

so let me get this straight

  1. ARabs don’t want Ummah
  2. Pakistanis don’t want Ummah
  3. I know for sure Indian Muslims don’t want one either
  4. Haven’t herad much ummah stuff coming from Asia..

so who the hell wants it?? displaced Afghans/Talebans??

well u had your chance and you blew it bigtime.. Allah’s wrath in the form of bunker busters showed you how Allah deals with oppresors on this earth..

now leave Pakistan alone please .. we have no desire to be an ‘Ummah’ with the Arabobos .. we’re way better off in our own country.. if it weren’t for the Afghans doing drug trade, our country’s passport would still be respected..and if it weren’t for these Arabobo terrorists.. we’d still have some dignity at international airports..

we’re better off being as far away as possible from them… afteral Indian Muslims are Muslims too.. no one harrasses them at the airports.. they never had to do Special Registration.. it’s cuz they value India more.. lets learn to keep Pakistan first!

:jhanda:

xguru,

If i'm telling you I'm not a nationalist and proving how it appeals to the intellectually challenged then how can I be a nationalist!

The Islamic state is a state for all people. When in the history of Islam did you find that there were only Muslims living under the Islamic state. Islamic history is glorious and not a disaster.

Unlike Pakistan the Khilafah will not treat the muslims better than its Christian minorities or any other minorities for that matter.

Islam is an ideology not a spiritual religion.

Islamic state is not a utopia there will always be problems its part of life and only Islam solves those problems comprehensively.

pakistaniAbroad,

You know as well as I do that the taleban did not establish Islam in Afghanistan

Only Muslims want the Islamic state. We want to be ruled by Allah's laws not busharraf's.

Don't forget pakistanis bringing drugs into britain and the local pakistani dealers. Don't forget pakistanis on benefit fraud and credit card fraud.

Alhumdulillah Allah has blessed us Muslims with Islam and gave us an intellectual level that doesn't blame the many for the mischief of the few.

Ok Raihan, if you say you are not a nationalist then I will believe you.

The things that you want to happen, like one happy Ummah where a Caliph is ruling and unifying Muslims from all these different regions... Well you must be an idealist or dreamer...

Listen, I am not a hardcore nationlist either. I am a realist and look at things in that light. Experience and history tells me that having a Pakistan is the best thing for the Muslims in that area. Without Pakistan the fate of you and I would be that of the Muslims in India and Kashmir. You think the Arabs would help us or the Persians or even the Afghans. Heck each of these group of people portray themselves as the torchbearers of Islam yet each is friends with India and some of them even with Israel. What have they done to help the Muslims of Kashmir or India. How about the Palestinians, the list goes on.

The ayatollah killed many Muslims, the taliban did the same. They did this in the name of implementing Islamic law. I don't know what Ummah or Islamic law you are talking about. But in the 21st century the people who want this stuff are like the ayatollah, the taliban and like Osama. I don't want either of them. Do you?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Allah's wrath in the form of bunker busters showed you how Allah deals with oppresors on this earth..
[/quote]

you remind me of the imam who was giving sermon on Friday years back just after the devastating earth quake in Turkey that killed indiscriminately men, women, and children in thousands. And he proclaimed that it was wrath of Allah since Muslims are not behaving well these days… so if we go by your logic the bombers are God sent angles who are teaching lessons to the oppressing men, women, and children in Afghanistan, Palestine, and Iraq….

[quote]
now leave Pakistan alone please .. we have no desire to be an 'Ummah' with the Arabobos .. we're way better off in our own country.. if it weren't for the Afghans doing drug trade, our country's passport would still be respected..and if it weren't for these Arabobo terrorists.. we'd still have some dignity at international airports..

we're better off being as far away as possible from them... afteral Indian Muslims are Muslims too.. no one harrasses them at the airports.. they never had to do Special Registration.. it's cuz they value India more.. lets learn to keep Pakistan first!
[/QUOTE]

sure blame your issues and problems on Afghans and others, find an escape goat instead of addressing the issues at hand.. so who brought the bribery, stealing, cheating, kam-chori and other characteristics to our nation by which we are well known today? Is that also Arabs or Afghans or is it Indians or Persians? May be a Jewish chaal… Pakistan had a lot of links to terrorism per western media so where does that put Pakistanis? Oh, wait that is also Arabs’ fault.

Indian Muslims are not harassed at the airports… which airports do you go to? Most of the Indian Muslims I have spoken to tell a different story.

.

Choochi.. you probably hang out with Indian Matoo muslims like yourself. No one is harassed anywhere at any airport. (((You are probably a bit too zealous…did you know that Ted Kennedy was also stopped and refused to board a plane??? No, you don’t know that caz you have your head firmly placed in your ass))). I travel all the time and I have never been stopped or harassed at any airport, except Germany…fking Nazis. I have never ever been questioned at any US airport (don’t know if that’s good or bad).

:jhanda: