Is the homosexual act fully permissable in the Christian/Jewish faith?
Pretty pertinent in light of where the threads headed.
I guess like nomaan pointed out this is all about tolerance and less about wether it's encouraged in Islam or Christianity.
It exists, of this there is no doubt in Muslim, Jewish and Christian society.
Christain and Jewish faiths don;t make civil or criminal laws in the western and secular world. I have not seen the adultery as a crime for stoning per the jewish scripture in NY let alone Tel aviv..
hmm you got me confoozed now matty, you really are frothing today.
I thought this was about imams in the UK, last I heard they hadn't established sharia there....not yet anyway.
Truth of the matter though, Christians and Jews and Muslims on the whole are as tolerant or intolerant as each other in the respect of homosexuality. Suppose it comes from having the basic same message in their scripture.
The way it's handled at the moment by all three faiths is obviously in a state of change.
Oh I am very even keel Thappie. Hindus don;t legislate sexual orientation. Muslims couldn;t legislate it if their lives depended on it. which is an oxymoron, because the failure there would spell hell..
You keep forgetting the Judea-Christian wala's.
People being gay didn't happen yesterday it's been around a long time...oooh before even you were born Matty.
It just seems that the momentum within society has built up to a level where homosexuality can be discussed by Muslims, Christians and Jews.
I don't really think it's any biggie though people that are gay are gay, quiet openly so in some Muslim countries. I don't think the clergy of any of the three above mentioned faiths would say it's healthy and in line with their teachings though.
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/weekly/aa990517.htm
http://www.nuffieldbioethics.org/publications/geneticsandhb/rep0000001077.asp
We have genetic tendencies documented for gambling, alcoholism, adultery, couch potatoness, arson, rape..
Simply arguing that genetic predisposition towards something validates it is, to my mind, completely inane. Read up on genetic determinism, and its (nonexistent) legal implications if you wish to argue more intelligently.
Since this thread deals with a so-called Muslim Imam’s pliant attitude towards Homosexuality, I deal it from Islamic perspective. Islamic unlike other religions is belief system which affects each and every facet of life. It is not something private between God and Man, and that it is up to man to decide what type of relationship he going to arrange with his god.
We Muslims whether practicing or not take Islam to be from God Almighty irrespective of our own weakness (in living full Islamic life). Islam takes Homosexuality as a disease and the one suffering from it should seek treatment.
The following words of Dr. Muzzammil Siddiqi of the ISNA, Scholar of a Muslim Organisation of America, conveys the Islamic attitude: "Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education." "There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life."
Islam has prescribed severe punishment for Homosexual acts for which there has to be witnesses for such punishments to be meted out. Islamic does not allow the state to snoop after the people to ‘see’ what goes in their houses.
Islam is very pro family and pro-society as a whole and the individual has to conform for the betterment of society as a whole.
The best example that I can give is of a human body. If any organ or part of body develops a disease or injury which will be a threat to the health of the whole body, anyone will be happy to face the surgeon’s knife to ‘cut off’ the diseased part.
Islam does not compromise with what it deems to be evil.
Muhammad Yusuf, “the chairman of the Council of University Imams” (where do they exist – never heard of him and such Council) is just seeking attention and needs to pass off as a liberal, tolerant and an enlightened Muslim.
May be he has earned the right to be invited to have tea with the Queen
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*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Liberal imams is better term.....
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have you ever seen a "liberal" imam ? there is no such thing. Imams are religious people, while most liberals are secular non-religious people.
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
God made a mistake when he equated homosexuality with immorality or sinful.
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And who the heck are you to tell us that God made a mistake ? Are you superior to God ?
You are probably not a true Pak-istani Muslim, but a ABCD kid. Yes in our religion sick acts like homoism and bestiality (sex with animals) is NOT allowed. If you don't like it, then too bad.
Homoism is not just immoral, it is anti-nature. Have you ever seen two male monkeys haveing sex or two male frogs having sex with each other ? Sex is nature's way to reproduce, and you don't have to be a Mus-lim to know this. Animals, bacterias and other species have sex to reproduce, but the sick homos can't reproduce. And yes marriage is also about love, but love is caring in the human form. and yea sexual attraction is a nature's signal and in our genes it signals and reminds us to reproduce.
If you are educated enough, can you give me examples of any species in which males are having sex with males and females having sex with females ? Only in some sick retarded homo sapins would you find this sick stuff.
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*Originally posted by Pak Brave Heart: *
And who the heck are you to tell us that God made a mistake ? Are you superior to God ?
You are probably not a true Pak-istani Muslim, but a ABCD kid. Yes in our religion sick acts like homoism and bestiality (sex with animals) is NOT allowed. If you don't like it, then too bad.
Homoism is not just immoral, it is anti-nature. Have you ever seen two male monkeys haveing sex or two male frogs having sex with each other ? Sex is nature's way to reproduce, and you don't have to be a Mus-lim to know this. Animals, bacterias and other species have sex to reproduce, but the sick homos can't reproduce. And yes marriage is also about love, but love is caring in the human form. and yea sexual attraction is a nature's signal and in our genes it signals and reminds us to reproduce.
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Apparently, scientists have demonstrated that every breed of mammal has a tendency towards homosexuality. Given a certain amount of sexual tension, an animal tends to mate with the nearest partner, be it homo or hetro.
We would sink to new lows though, if we start regulating our social norms and religion according to how animals behave.
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Paki Brave ... If you don’t like it no one is converting you to Homosexuality. You follow your scripture, but don’t tell others what should they can and can not do. Studies show that homophobia stems from suppressed homosexual tendencies. Try figuring this out.
Ravage,,,don't tell him about scientific studies on sexual behavior, the guy will have a fit.
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heard the saying "Even a stopped watch is occasionally right"? What I like about Islam is that a lot of watches stopped in their rigid, fixed view of Islam still manage to be right, a lot of the time.
Dismissing stopped watches though, do you think people having genetic predisposition towards something is reason to validate it? How about arson? rape?
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*Originally posted by ravage: *
Apparently, scientists have demonstrated that every breed of mammal have a tendency towards homosexuality. Given a certain amount of sexual tension, an animal tends to mate with the nearest partner, be it homo or hetro.
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dude,
give me a brake. So you are telling me that you have seen re-nagade animal species who have sex within their gender ?
You are humiliating animals here, even animals are more intellegent and normal then sick homos from san fancisco. :)
It is by no means a settled debate.
http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/year1/psychobiology_site_backups/homosexuality-debate/choice.html
But yes, there were studies on animals back in the sixties where they showed that sexual tense animals relieve themselves without thinking too much about partners.
You guys are all arguing about what does, and does not, constitute being Muslim, whether gays deserve any rights at all in Islam - from your perspectives as a Muslim. Saddest part is, you're losing one of the most basic qualities a Muslim is supposed to possess - that of basic respect towards others, even when we disagree. How many times did Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) face opposition in his life? Was he not bleeding at Taif when he visited that city to spread the message of Islam? Was he not pelted by stones? Was he not asked by the angel Gabriel whether he wanted the ignorant people of that city to be killed, crushed by mountains to be specific? What was his response while blood was pouring down his head? It's worth remembering how the greatest man who will ever live on this planet, behaved towards others who disagreed with his beliefs.
Forget homosexuality and gays. If you can't even argue respectfully without calling each other "idiots" (as was done above), then this topic is useless.
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Ravage, I don’t buy genetic disposition argument, scientific research is only time specific (I like your analogy of stopped watch) and can change with the changing nature of the environment. However, socio-biological research is more convincing to me. It is not about what people are born with, it’s about “orientation” or "attraction” and not a preference. Just as people are born heterosexuals, they can also be born homo or bi-sexual. What’s such a hoopla over this issue? Can you force a heterosexual to become a homosexual?
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"Can you force a heterosexual to become a homosexual?"
Yes. And vice versa. There is a field in psychology for counselling homosexuals with controversial results.
"It is not about what people are born with, it’s about “orientation” or "attraction” and not a preference."
Similarly, people from particulal ethnic groups may argue that they are born more oriented towards having sex with women without their consent. Perhaps you might comment on that.
Well , if there is no one of the different gender, of couse the horny animals gonna have sex with the same gender, that is what you are saying.
Do you know how the AIDS spead in the world ? Aids is a disease in Gorillas. And a sick person in Africa had sex with a Gorilla and that Gorilla disease spread to that human and that human had sex with different humans and that is how AIDS spread.
Having sex with animals or with same sex seams normal to sick freaks.
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*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
You guys are all arguing about what does, and does not, constitute being Muslim, whether gays deserve any rights at all in Islam - from your perspectives as a Muslim. Saddest part is, you're losing one of the most basic qualities a Muslim is supposed to possess - that of basic respect towards others, even when we disagree. How many times did Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) face opposition in his life? Was he not bleeding at Taif when he visited that city to spread the message of Islam? Was he not pelted by stones? Was he not asked by the angel Gabriel whether he wanted the ignorant people of that city to be killed, crushed by mountains to be specific? What was his response while blood was pouring down his head? It's worth remembering how the greatest man who will ever live on this planet, behaved towards others who disagreed with his beliefs.
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Well said. Personally I am a believer in the seperation of "church" from state.
However, how would you explain Islamic laws under the Prophet's rule over Arabia?
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Yes. And vice versa. There is a field in psychology for counselling homosexuals with controversial results.<<<
Yes, I saw that on TV. It worked for 1 out of 200 or so subjects. I am not arguing over what scientific methods are there to determine whether it is genetic or behavioral. My issue is why would anyone want to change someone’s orientation? If tomorrow they decide that being a woman is un-natural, do you think that they will set up counseling clinics to change their sex? Back in the middleages in europe, it was the witchcraft, now it is Homosexuality. It will pass, just like the rest of fears.
Similarly, people from particulal ethnic groups may argue that they are born more oriented towards having sex with women without their consent. Perhaps you might comment on that.<<<<<
It is called Rape where I live. When I am living among that ethnic group, I will think about it.
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1 in 200? Evidently your TV programme reflected the research of the other side of the spectrum. As a researcher myself, I can tell you that the world is rarely numerically black or white. I personally trust google more than Sky News.
Admittedly, the only reason I can give for wanting people to change their orientation is that I find it personally distasteful and opposed to my religious beliefs.
However, people seeking moral justification on the basis of its 'naturalness', wanting Islam to change, really rattle my chain. There really is no legal basis there IMO.
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It is called Rape where I live. When I am living among that ethnic group, I will think about it.
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You will no doubt find arguments similar to the pro-gay-legitimising lobby.
Anyway. Im off. Take care.
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*Originally posted by ravage: *
Admittedly, the only reason I can give for wanting people to change their orientation is that I find it personally distasteful and opposed to my religious beliefs.
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The only reason I can give for wanting people to change from their condescending and judgmental ways is that I find those traits personally distasteful and opposed to my religous beliefs.
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However, people seeking moral justification on the basis of its 'naturalness', wanting Islam to change, really rattle my chain. There really is no legal basis there IMO.
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What does moral justifcation have to do with legal basis? Morality and spirituality have nothing to do with legalities. It's not Islam that needs to change, it's the forced indoctrination of some Muslims' strict interpretation on others that needs to change. Tolerance.
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The only reason I can give for wanting people to change from their condescending and judgmental ways is that I find those traits personally distasteful and opposed to my religous beliefs.
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When you call someone judgemental, what exactly are you being?
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What does moral justifcation have to do with legal basis? Morality and spirituality have nothing to do with legalities. It's not Islam that needs to change, it's the forced indoctrination of some Muslims' strict interpretation on others that needs to change. Tolerance.
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From the perspective of Islam, morality constitutes and dictates a major chunk of Islamic law. Thus anything immoral from the perspective of Islam is also illegal and vice versa.
As for tolerance, Im all for it. I have a lot of issues with how muslims have gone about enforcing Islam since the Prophet's demise, but nevertheless, there is a difference between calling for tolerance and calling for legitimacy.