[QUOTE] Originally posted by nomaan: *
gay tolerance is not equal to gay acceptance. **i'm hoping whats implied here is that gays shouldn't be targeted for hatred, and physical abuse. they have rights as humans, just like everyone else.*
being gay is not a sin, acting it out is. even if you act it out, it amounts to a sin, not a crime.
*now if these imams are saying being gay is A-OK, then they're not representing islam in my opnion. if they're saying we have to be tolerant, then i don;t see anything wrong with that..
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Nomaan, i think you are accurate. You had the courage to say in this thread what i lacked the courage to articulate. i am impressed to read your reply. Thank you.
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
....
Moulanna Changeez… Under what does a gay person having sex with another gay person fall? Under Haqooq-Allah or Haqooq-al-Ibaad?
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Madhu, what I mean to say is that religion is not something between you and God only, it needs to address the societal issues as well, and Gay issue one of those. Should I say it more slowly?
Nomaan, i think you are accurate. You had the courage to say in this thread what i lacked the courage to articulate. i am impressed to read your reply. Thank you.
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courageous? articulate? are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else? :)
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
...religion is not something between you and God only, it needs to address the societal issues as well, and Gay issue one of those. Should I say it more slowly?
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What does society have to do with who someone else sleeps with? Religion is a personal, spiritual relationship between an individual and their deity that is interepreted and implemented by individuals, not society. As much as some would like to make religion a monolith, Borg-like entity, it is not that black and white.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by nomaan: *
**courageous? articulate? are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else? :)
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No. At the moment and based upon what i understand, i feel pretty sure about this.
i didn't have the courage to articulate what you did, it was at the back of my mind but seeing the majority responses against it, and this being such a controversial issue, i stayed quiet and opted for the easier way out. i think it took courage for you to express that and i admire that willingness to stand up, alone, for what you think is right.
Islam is admittedly more severe in blurring the line between a sin and a crime, punishable by law. However, it is by no means the only one to do that. Even in modern western cultures, e.g. United States of America, till a few months ago, the state of Texas had a law that police can arrest men engaged in gay sexual activities. Granted the anti-sodomy law was struck down by the US Supreme Court recently, the point is, societies have tried to embark on moral judgements based on divine rules and applying what they deem as proper and appropriate as opposed to improper behavior. Laws against incest (amongst adults) or prostitution are further examples of how even modern western societies try to regulate moral behavior because they deem them a risk for society. Gay behavior is no different.
However, that does not take away the crucial point, that it should never be an individual's decision to harm another individual based on religious or moral values. That is a recipe for chaos and anarchy. It should be the state which should enforce such laws. For muslim states, the laws are provided by the Al-mighty and are interpreted and enforced by the people; in the western states the majority will of the people define these laws and enforce them. No individual should be allowed to harm, injure or kill another; just because they disagree or dislike their life-style.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Faisal: *
However, that does not take away the crucial point, that it should never be an individual's decision to harm another individual based on religious or moral values
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But a state is allowed to severely punish individuals based on their interpretation of a religous law? I think what is so foreign to secularlists and freedom-loving people like myself is how someone else's strict and narrow interpretation of their religion can dictate morals to everyone else. Of course, I think all that is irrevalent to this discussion as homosexuality should not even fall into the 'moral value' realm. Now a *promiscuous homosexual may be a different story. But if one believes (as I do) that homosexuality is a (harmless to others) trait that one is born with - it is inconceivable that God would want society to punish that person based on our interpretation of the ideal 'moral values'.
Seminole, if we take your line of thinking, and even if we keep Islam out of the discussion then how do you compare the two behaviors: couple of gay people who are engaged in sex, as opposed to a man engaged in sex with a prostitute. Why is one, in your opinion merits no punishment while the other is a punishable offence in most parts of USA? Admittedly, none of these acts is harming anyone else, but admittedly both of them are (1) a sin and (2) deemed to corrupt the moral values of the society-at-large.
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
What does society have to do with who someone else sleeps with?
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Thats what you think. Society should be kept clean from "immorality" (values defined by God), I'm sure you don't have problem if prostitution becomes a thriving business in a city or country, but those who care about "morality" will not appreciate that.
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Religion is a personal, spiritual relationship between an individual and their deity that is interepreted and implemented by individuals, not society.
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No, religion is not a "personal relationship" only (with God). It encompasses each and every part of one's life, and in those "each and every part" comes the society.
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As much as some would like to make religion a monolith, Borg-like entity, it is not that black and white.
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As much as some would like to make religion a personal relationship, it is not that black and white.
Faisal, I don't equate a gay couple having sex and sex with a prostitute any more than I equate a heterosexual couple and sex with a prostitute. I also don't equate homosexuality with bestiality, incest, pedophilia or promiscuity. I don't think homosexuality corrupts society's moral values. As to why the US outlaws prostitution, I think it is because most people find it undesirable to have rampant sex for sale on the streets.
Well Seminole.. you can spin it any way you want, the bottom line is that people decide which activities they want to allow in their midst and which activities they won't allow, even if those activities are only between two consenting adults.
Most societies in the US disallow prostitution, thats fine. Its what the society dislikes and so they have a law against it. People either follow the law or they move out some place else.
Similarly, if muslim societies, decide to adopt the provisions of Quran and declare homosexuality as unacceptable in their midst, they have a right to make that into law. People either follow the law or they move out some place else.
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Thats what you think. Society should be kept clean from "immorality" (values defined by God), I'm sure you don't have problem if prostitution becomes a thriving business in a city or country, but those who care about "morality" will not appreciate that.
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Homosexuality is a trait one is born with, prostitution is not. I don't think God has defined homosexuality as immoral.
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No, religion is not a "personal relationship" only (with God). It encompasses each and every part of one's life, and in those "each and every part" comes the society. As much as some would like to make religion a personal relationship, it is not that black and white.
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You cannot define religion or spirituality for me or anyone else. How can religion, spirituality and a relationship with God be anything else but a personal relationship? Of course everyone has some sort of religous beliefs and all of us interact, that doesn't mean that we have to speak to God together or have someone tell us how to do it. I don't even let anyone else wash my car, I'm sure not going to leave something as important as my spirituality up to someone else.
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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
^ Who would I convince in the Islamic world to change the law? God?
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Why would you wanna live in the Islamic world? For you there are options #1 and #2. In any case, it is the decision of the people in all muslim societies, whether they adopt sharia (Islamic) laws or not, and to what extent. If you really really want to spend your time on this project, you can try and convince these people.
faisal, that is the point isn;t it. No where is the "islamic system" implemented. Yet people are quick to offer what is morally right under systems which are man made, from a religious point of view.
As far as your point about why would I want to live in an Islamic system. I wouldn't. But there are knuckleheads who are trying to implement islamic systems in places where there are a lot of mixed races, religions, etc.. If tomorrow malaysia goes the route of the taliban...do you expect the hindus and buddhists to move out simply because they can't change the laws?
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Why would you wanna live in the Islamic world? For you there are options #1 and #2. In any case, it is the decision of the people in all muslim societies, whether they adopt sharia (Islamic) laws or not, and to what extent.
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This kind of argument gets my goat. It could aslo be said that in western societies it is up to them to adopt secular laws or not and to what extent.
In western societies, Muslims are encouraged to try and change the law, but in a Muslim society a westerner must either live with it or get out. If a Muslim in France thinks it is unfair to ban the veil, raise cain. If a western woman wants to walk by herself in some Musim societies, it's get out.
Well, in your hypothetical example, if tomorrow FULL Islamic sharia is implemented in Malaysia (not like the pick-and-choose Talibaan era), then the hindus and buddhists will have FULL liberty to practice their religion, have places of worship and interact and do business as usual. The hypothetical Islamic government will not allow them, just as it will not allow any of the muslims, to promote or engage in promiscuity, homosexuality, murder, prostitution and many other things.
Now, if they wish to engage in any of this behavior, they can chose to leave and go someplace else. If they have no problems in following these rules, they are more then welcome to continue living there.
I am sure many people find US society to be extremely puritanical, compared to, lets say Scandanavian countries. If they find themselves too suffocated in the US, they can surely move there and go top-less on the streets; something, which you can't do in the US.
Originally posted by Seminole: *
**This kind of argument gets my goat. *
You obviously didn't read the whole post and just decided to jump.
"It could aslo be said that in western societies it is up to them to adopt secular laws or not and to what extent."
This is exactly what I said. Convince the decision-makers to change the law, even if you are in a muslim country. Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp?
"In western societies, Muslims are encouraged to try and change the law, but in a Muslim society a westerner must either live with it or get out. "
No. If you had read the whole post, the answer is right there.