Re: imagine if the chinese were ashamed of themselves.
...Other examples are place names: Bombay and Mumbai - both are acceptable ... in Urdu these days the people are saying "so" instead of "phir" ... if Urdu is so valuable then why lose those terms? In the past we used to call any "machine" an "ala" ... why have we stopped doing that? Languages change and sure enough they can even change back to what they used to be ... let's get over it.
*"so" Hindi kaa lafz* hai aur aajkaa nahiiN bal k zamana-e-qadeem kaa sadiyoN puraanaa hai...yeh lafz tab bhii musta'mil thaa jab urdu ko *reKhta* kahte the. *Wali Muhammad Wali (1667–1707) *ne is lafz kii reKhta haiyat ko apne ek she'r men yuN musta'mil kiyaa thaa:
tujh lab kii sifat la'l-e-BadaKhshaaN, "soN" [so] kahuuNgaa!
jaadoo haiN tere nai'n GhazaalaaN, "soN" [so] kahuuNgaa!!!****
reKhta ka lafz "soN" urdu meN aa kar "so" ho gayaa.
jaisa k NaabiGh saaHib ne farmaayaa...aala [aalaat...ism-e-jam'a] TOOL ko kahte haiN na k machine...***'allaamah Iqbal ne apne ek she'r meN lafz "aalaat-e-machini" use kiyaa thaa.*
Re: imagine if the chinese were ashamed of themselves.
So what do you call a machine in Urdu?
I remember reading a Urdu article named "kal ka ghora" which means mechanical horse. Also in Urdu I have read bar'qee aalaat ( electrical machines) and zara'ee aalat (agricultural machinery) so aalaat can be used for machine also.
Re: imagine if the chinese were ashamed of themselves.
I remember reading a Urdu article named "kal ka ghora" which means mechanical horse. Also in Urdu I have read bar'qee aalaat and zara'ee aalat so aalaat can be used for machine also.
YES...kal means machine aur usii se banaa hai kal purze...yeh barqii yaa duKhaanii hote haiN...:)
**
barqii = Electrical
duKhaanii = steam**
*"so" Hindi kaa lafz* hai aur aajkaa nahiiN bal k zamana-e-qadeem kaa sadiyoN puraanaa hai...yeh lafz tab bhii musta'mil thaa jab urdu ko *reKhta* kahte the. *Wali Muhammad Wali (1667–1707) *ne is lafz kii reKhta haiyat ko apne ek she'r men yuN musta'mil kiyaa thaa:
tujh lab kii sifat la'l-e-BadaKhshaaN, "soN" [so] kahuuNgaa!
jaadoo haiN tere nai'n GhazaalaaN, "soN" [so] kahuuNgaa!!!****
reKhta ka lafz "soN" urdu meN aa kar "so" ho gayaa.
jaisa k NaabiGh saaHib ne farmaayaa...aala [aalaat...ism-e-jam'a] TOOL ko kahte haiN na k machine...***'allaamah Iqbal ne apne ek she'r meN lafz "aalaat-e-machini" use kiyaa thaa.*
Peace Dost Khan
The fact that Mumbai and Bombay are not in Urdu doesn't change the principle - the OP wrote Chinese and Mandarin to prove a point about Urdu and Arabic ... So I use place names native and non-native Mumbai and Bombay to demonstrate my point ... it was not about the Urdu language so much as it was about the interchangeability of terms in languages and names of things.
That "so" and "soN" explanation forgive me but sounds like complete nonesense ... people in dialogue use "so" the English word instead of "phir" or in how it is pronounced in Hindu "fir" ... or in Punjabi "fere" ...
Just stand there and let me take the Ala-e-tasweer out and take your picture ... even a tool and a machine can be interchangeable terms. :)
My point still stands ... even if your semantics lessons was true - my point would still be correct ... Ramzan in Urdu - English has standardised the term from the original Arabic. Ramzan is a vulgarisation of the original. And Urdu is a vulgate language as beautiful as it might be.
Re: imagine if the chinese were ashamed of themselves.
...That "so" and "soN" explanation forgive me but sounds like complete nonesense ... people in dialogue use "so" the English word instead of "phir" or in how it is pronounced in Hindu "fir" ... or in Punjabi "fere" ...
"so" is urdu word...came from Hindi...you may look up in any urdu dictionary or search the urdu literature...it's NOT English word "so".
Re: imagine if the chinese were ashamed of themselves.
urdu meN **55% alfaaz Farsi zabaan**** se aaye haiN, *35% Arabi* se aur *10% muKhtalif digar zabaanoN* se aaye haiN...ek zabaan ke bolne waaloN kii ek *sautii [phonetics]* andaaz hotaa hai...'arabii zabaan meN kuchh Huroof kii aawaazeN aisii haiN jo urdu/Hindi bolne waale nahiiN nikaal sakte jaise SE vs SEEN, He [Halawe waalii] vs he [haathii waalii], ZAAL vs ZE, SUAAD vs SEEN, ZUAAD vs ZE, TOE vs TE, ZOE vs ZE, 'AIN vs ALIF...is liye urdu bolne waale log agar aise bolte haiN to yeh unkii lisaanii Sautii [linguistic phonetics] *majboorii hotii hai*. is liye, jo ahl-e-Urdu agar Ramadhan ko Ramazan kahte haiN to yeh qaabil-e-qubool honaa chaahiye, MAGAR:
Ramazaan**** [re zabar, meem zabar, zuaad, alif , noon]**** kahnaa saHeeH hogaa jab k Ramzaan *[re meem zabar, zuaad, alif, noon]* kahnaa Ghalat hogaa...iske talaffuz meN *meem ke oopar zabar kii aawaaz* nikaalnaa laazmii hai.**
Re: imagine if the chinese were ashamed of themselves.
Growing up in India, Ramzan is what was familiar to me. Now hearing Ramadan, something seemed off. Could not quite understand what. Now this thread jogged my memory from decades ago. So personally, a mystery solved.
Re: imagine if the chinese were ashamed of themselves.
When I speak Urdu I say Ramzan ... when I speak English or Arabic I say Ramadan ... the only time when it would be wrong to convert the word back to its original is when it changes the meaning ...
For example ... in English we say "grapes" which is from the french word "bunch" - the correct word would have been "raisin" but we give that word the meaning of dried grapes ...
To suddenly change the word grape to raisin in English will be confusing and hence wrong ... however since in Pakistan people speak both Urdu and Arabic and English it is easy to recognise the word Ramadan and Ramzan and use them in interchange.
Other examples are place names: Bombay and Mumbai - both are acceptable ... in Urdu these days the people are saying "so" instead of "phir" ... if Urdu is so valuable then why lose those terms? In the past we used to call any "machine" an "ala" ... why have we stopped doing that? Languages change and sure enough they can even change back to what they used to be ... let's get over it.
