Here is a speech on Imaan-e-Abu Talib* by Prof. Tahir Al Qadri (The Famous Sunni Scholar) for the peopl who think that the Uncle of Rasulallah (saww) was kafir. The Kafir who brought up The Rasul of Allah and performed his Nikah with bibi Khadija. :smack:
*Required Real Player
Edit:
Oh I did’nt notice inuit posted the above link already in Valid Question post. JazaKallah Brother!!
1- One who calls himself a ‘Sunni’ scholar has to reconsider his islamic standings.
2-
YOu see when the Nkah with Bibi Khadija was performed at that time Muhammad’s [s] shariat did not exist. He didnt even had the idea that he would be a prophet. At that time he [abu talib] might have been a Muslim by adoptin the sharia of Eesa [as].
Latter when the Sharia of Muhammad [s] was revealed.it became obligatory to abide by it and any one who didnt had to be a "Kafir’. NOw you tell me where did ‘Abu Talib’ read the ‘kalima’?
Seconly as far as the ‘scholars’ speaking about it are concerned I can tell you many who dont agree that Abu Talib was Muslim.
*Prof. Tahir Al Qadri (The Famous Sunni Scholar) *
objection; misleading information
does it matter more to prove the iman of abu talib because he was uncle of the prophet (saw) or cuz he was the father of ali (ra)????
if u associate him with the prophet (saw) then go find the imaan of the 10 other uncles that the prophet (saw) had....
besides hamza (ra) and abbas (ra) none of his uncles accepted Islam....
abu talib supported him but did not accept Islam....
infact he did not even support him, just protected him from quraish and continously tried to talk him out of whatever he was doing....
Stupid Idiot: Your concept about religion and Islam is totally wrong. you don’t even try to understand it. It will be the same if you don’t open your eyes. Muhammad (PBUH) is not the owner of Shariyat. Its nature and made by Allah the almighty for all times. We believe that Prophets(AS) are well informed about their prophethood since the time when they born. Its not like Mirza Qadiyani how later on sometime upon feed back of ignorant people realize that they should be a (false) prophet.
Secondly it was not obligatory on any son of Ishmael to follow the Shariyat (law) of Prophet Isa (AS). Because Prophet Isa (AS) is only for the people of Bni Israel. Our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is for all mankind and obligatory for everybody to follow Shariya he brought from God (Allah The Almighty). correct your concepts. Abu Talib was the follower of Deen e Hanif (Shariyat e Ibrahimi)
Aslam-o-Alakum,
zer01: I urge Shia and Sunnies to unite against these people. Who work against islam; pretending that they are true Muslims. They jump too high seeing Abu Talib a Muslim; they don’t even believe Prophet’s Father and Mother Muslims. They think that
Protecting somebody from his enemies is not a support. Simply twist words to achieve their false claims; nothing else.
Waslam
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
does it matter more to prove the iman of abu talib because he was uncle of the prophet (saw) or cuz he was the father of ali (ra)????
if u associate him with the prophet (saw) then go find the imaan of the 10 other uncles that the prophet (saw) had....
besides hamza (ra) and abbas (ra) none of his uncles accepted Islam....
abu talib supported him but did not accept Islam....
infact he did not even support him, just protected him from quraish and continously tried to talk him out of whatever he was doing....
[/QUOTE]
Its a fact others were kafir, and Prophet(PBUH) never accepted any support from his kafir uncles.. even from his uncle Hamza (RA) when he was kafir. Prophet refused. go read history and see. the event of Ibu jahil & Camel stomach.
Iman-e-Abu talib
Aslamualikum,
Iam a new member and this is my first post
I hope it is benficial InshaAllah
It doesnt matter who tahir al qadri is but his lack of knowledge is clear from the fact tht he is saying tht abi talib was a muslim! SubhanAllah
Perhaps him and those the like of him havent come across the account where Prophet (sal Allah u alayhi wasallam) went to abi talib on his death bed and asked him to accept Islam but he REFUSED....For more details do some resaerch the following links may be helpful
www.islam-qa.com
and www.islam-online.net
this reply is not intended to provoke any kind of secetarian feelings but truth only lies in "Quran and sunnah" not wat a contemporary scholar says...
HILAAL
IS this that important a issue…what is the significance of this issue …
azar was non muslim but he brought up hadrat ibraheem khalil ullah …
kanain was non muslim but he was son of noah alaihus salam…
…
Allama tahir qadri has already said that " main nay to kabhi namaz bhe nahi parhai …dont write allam before my name " … wasiay ye wahi allam hain jin ko hazoor :saw: nay lahore say karachi jana ka ticket diya tha ..nauzobillah …( ref- see tafseer of tahir ul qadri )
starting of shia sunni fighting threads …hmmm
Trust Shias to keep circling around non-issues :-)
Is it just blindness (they just keep missing the first post in the forum.. how come?!?!) or the simple lack of a dictionary which prevents them from understanding that there's a moratorium on sectarian discussions?
I agree with this gentleman.
I understand that. As I said in another of my post that Muhammad [s] holds this position becuase he was chossen by Allah as his messenger. But since the different messengers haven been bringing different laws that is why we assosiate them with thier name. It does not mean that they made it. They were servents of Allah and chosen by Allah[swt] to diliver Allah’s messange to the man kind.
[QUOTE]
Its nature and made by Allah the almighty for all times. We believe that Prophets(AS) are well informed about their prophethood since the time when they born.
[QUOTE]
Not all of them are informed on thier brith. If you remember when Muhammad [s] recieved the first revelation he was worried and he [s] went to bibi Khadija [ra] and Khadija [ra] took Muhammad to one of her cousin [dont remember his name]. Her cousin was a religious Scholar who told Muhammad [s] that he has been selected as a Messenger of Allah.
OK so what religion was the bani Ismael wre following before the Quran was revieled?
I think my brother just anwered the question himself. …and obligatory for everybody to follow Shariya he brought from God So after the Quran was revealed why did Abu Talib did not read the ‘kalima’. If it was obligatory for everyone.
Let us not generalise what you say. There are many who dont think what you say. Seconldy what if Muhammad [s] himself said my father is in hell. In this case who should we belive you who love Muhammad’s [s] family or Muhammad [s]?
I belive that Abu Talib was the biggest, the history has ever seen, non-believer supporter of Islam and Muhammad [s], when he was in real need of supporters.
Surely Allah [sw] knows the best.
Asalam-o-Alakum,
HILAL K : Welcome to the Gupshup.com; hope you will find great discussions on different issues. If found it a nice place to learn.
The hadith you wrote is a fabricated one, made to down the father of Hazarat Ali (AS) who was the grand father of Imam Hussan (AS) and Imam Hussain(AS). There are 2 Reasons
(1) Hazarat Ali (AS) killed their fathers who were kafirs
(2) Their kafir fathers did not embraces Islam and they declared Ali's father a kafir to equate themselves with Ali. To show people that we have a common right of become the king of Muslims as Ali has.
For this they spread many other things against Ali and Ahle bait(AS).
The case of Abu talib (AS) is not the only one. To build this concept; they don’t care even the father and mother of Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) never said about his father that “he will be in hell” (nauzubillah)
Note: At the end when you would not be able to find the answers; somebody amongst you would say that don’t do this kind of discussion “do what Muhammad has told you to do”. This is a common slogan of these kind of people.
Note: for a health discussion always bring evidence from the opponent books; otherwise discussion is useless. You own books are hijjat for you yourself but not for others.
Brother bao bihari LONG TIME NO SEE …
I hope you would be able to know the significance of the discussion as I wrote above.
Short for you: Azr was not the father of Ibrahim; he was his uncle. His real father 'Walid' name was Tarakh.
In the other thread “Is This A Valid Question???” I already mentioned it that Ab which is used for Azr has different meanings and does not necessarily mean 'Walid' (biological father).
O our Lord ! grant me protection and my parents (Walidayn) and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass. [14:41]
Ibrahim(AS) prays for his parents along with the other believers which shows that his father was a believer, otherwise a prophet of Allah could never have associated an infidel with believers and prayed to cover him with Allah's mercy. Azar was his uncle or the brother of his grandfather.
Matter of kanain son of Noah (AS) is different. He was not the Father 'Walid' of Noah(AS).
Stupid Idiot It is not obligatory for a person to come in a public meeting to recite a Kalima if he wants to become a Muslim. Neither it is necessary to announce in society that he is a Muslim; Public is not an authority.
It’s a matter of faith; which is in heart not on tongue. Many recited Kalima with tongue but they will be deep valley of Hell. Many could not recited kalmia in public but they will be accepted by Allah. Allah knows the best and his Prophet knows the best with the great knowledge given to him by the Almighty.
It’s the matter of faith; the faith on Prophethood. What you said if that is true then Muhammad’s (PBUH) Prophethood will be in doubt. The Holy Prophet's claim that impurity of ignorance and infidelity never touched any of his ancestors from Adam to Abdullah.
Question: Bring any saying of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in which he said Abu Talib was a kafir.
Question: Bring any saying of Ali (AS) or Ahle Bait (AS) that Abu Talib died as a Kafir.
Wasalam
And who told you that?
Companions of Muhammad [s] and Compaions of Ali [ra] Could never have done it. The historians have misguided you to make you Shia and other Sunni.
[qjuote]For this they spread many other things against Ali and Ahle bait(AS).
[/quote]
Those who have sacrificed all they had, [and remember many of the companions were extreemly rich before acception islam. When they entered Islam they sacrificed all they had for the sake of Allah [swt] and Islam.] Why would you they disgrace their muslim brother to become king. Who told you all this?
Since they didnt do it Abu Talib let alone doing that with Muhammad [s].
As if you have found them all.
What is wrong with this slogan. The islam is the Quran & the Sunnah [hadith]. Dont you agree on this part either?
I’m sorry but I only believe in the Quran & Sunnah, I really dont care what the books of sunnies or the shias tell. So I stick to them.
Where did you get this from
So do you mean to say that Azar [grandfather’s brother or uncle] was a non-bliever
Suppose if one never comes to public and accepts islam how would you get to know it. Its just the matter of his personal faith. No one else knows about it so how did you get to know it.
If one’s tounge doesnt recite the ‘kalima’ he/she is not a Muslim. Regardless of how true the feelings in her/his heart are.
And do you know why would they be in hell.?
How did you get to know what Allah [sw] and his Messenger [s] know.
Tell me was Abu Jahal Uncle of Muhammad was a believer or a non bliever.
What did I utter which left the prophethood in doubt. May Allah [sw]forgive me for that. And the claim of the Prophet you just wrote where did you get this from.
I’ll look for it. Can you bring me one in which Muhammad [s] said he was not one.
I’ll look for this one too. mean while give me one which says he died as a muslim
**For all members.... Pls stay on track and just provide your input on the first post and/or Maulana Tahir-ul-Qadri's speech. Any attempts to side track the discussion on shia-sunni issues may result in your posts being deleted. We don't need to start another shia-sunni debate on this thread.
Thanks**
the fabrication is not that abu talib was a non-muslim....
infact the supporters of ali (ra) r the one who brought this up that abu talib was a muslim....
they made ali (ra) higher saying that he is from the family and dince they thought 'family' makes a person high or low, they found that pl might object to ali (ra) coming from non-muslim parents hecne they made it up....
for a good measure, never in my life have i seen abu tali's name written with a (ra) in any book, sunni or shiaa....
and inuit, ab means father and means nothing else....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
and inuit, ab means father and means nothing else....
[/QUOTE]
...the word ' Ab ' in Arabic language may mean father as well as ancestor or even uncle as Ishmael ( Ismail ) the uncle of Jacob ( Yaqoub ) has been addressed as ' Ab ' in the following Quranic verse ...
Nay ! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons : What will you serve after me ? They said : Well will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit. 2 : 113 ]
Since Ishmael was not the father of Jacob, and yet Quran uses the word 'Ab' for him as uncle, then the usage of this word for other than biological father is established...
armughal : now explain your nothing else
[quote]
the fabrication is not that abu talib was a non-muslim....
infact the supporters of ali (ra) r the one who brought this up that abu talib was a muslim....
they made ali (ra) higher saying that he is from the family and dince they thought 'family' makes a person high or low, they found that pl might object to ali (ra) coming from non-muslim parents hecne they made it up....
[/quote]
How do you know they did that becuase of the reasons which you have just explained.
[QUOTE]
...the word ' Ab ' in Arabic language may mean father as well as ancestor or even uncle as Ishmael ( Ismail ) the uncle of Jacob ( Yaqoub ) has been addressed as ' Ab ' in the following Quranic verse ...
Nay ! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons : What will you serve after me ? They said : Well will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit. 2 : 113 ]
Since Ishmael was not the father of Jacob, and yet Quran uses the word 'Ab' for him as uncle, then the usage of this word for other than biological father is established...
[/QUOTE]
I'm not an Arabic expert and still learning quran. But since the words have various meanings, how do you get to know that on the both places it has been used for the same meaning.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Stupid Idiot: *
I'm not an Arabic expert and still learning quran. But since the words have various meanings, how do you get to know that on the both places it has been used for the same meaning.
[/QUOTE]
Now you came down a step; at least you accepted that words have different meanings in arabic not simply “nothing else” as armughal. Please read the following again. its from Quran.
...the word ' Ab ' in Arabic language may mean father as well as ancestor or even uncle as Ishmael ( Ismail ) the uncle of Jacob ( Yaqoub ) has been addressed as ' Ab ' in the following Quranic verse ...
Nay ! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons : What will you serve after me ? They said : Well will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit. 2 : 113 ]
Since Ishmael was not the father of Jacob, and yet Quran uses the word 'Ab' for him as uncle, then the usage of this word for other than biological father is established...
Besides Prophet Abraham prays for his biological father (Walid) along with the other believers, which clearly indicates that his biological father was not a polytheist. This is evident from the following Quranic verse ...
O our Lord ! grant me protection and my parents (Walidayn) and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass. [14:41]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
...the word ' Ab ' in Arabic language may mean father as well as ancestor or even uncle as Ishmael ( Ismail ) the uncle of Jacob ( Yaqoub ) has been addressed as ' Ab ' in the following Quranic verse ...
Nay ! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons : What will you serve after me ? They said : Well will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit. 2 : 113 ]
Since Ishmael was not the father of Jacob, and yet Quran uses the word 'Ab' for him as uncle, then the usage of this word for other than biological father is established...
armughal : now explain your nothing else
[/QUOTE]
the word used there is not ab but the plural form aabaa which is commonyl used in urdu as well as "aabaa-o-ajdaad" which means ancestors....
the word "ab" means just "father" and nothing else....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
O our Lord ! grant me protection and my parents (Walidayn) and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass. [14:41]
[/QUOTE]
and Quran mentions that after a time (instructed by Allah) he stopped making istighfaar for his father....
i am sure u know the verse i am talking about....
Good replies armughal