Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

**God has immense love for all his creation. For all the sins and wrongs you see in society today, if the love of God for the creation was not there. We would have been punished a long long long time ago just like the nations of Lut and Noah before us.
You have to understand Prophets (may Allah be pleased with them) have a higher place than us. They're our leaders and guide us. We cannot judge the Love of God, but it is them who showed and made us realize that love and always brought the good tidings and the message of One God, told us to worship him and him alone and be thankful that he created us and gave us so many blessings. If that's not love for everyone, than i dono what is.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is elevated, and respected highly because like i said before due to his actions and the message that he brought. He is regarded highly because his struggle and message is/was/will be for all the people of this world, not just the Children of Israel like Jesus (a.s.). or Moses (a.s.) for Bani Israeel.

Note: I love and respect Jesus (a.s.) and Moses (a.s.) too, so plz don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to make a point here to make you understand.

So that is why you see him as being respected in such a manner.
Worship is when you bow before him or his statue and ask him to save you from hellfire or ask of him for things in this world. Islam does not allow muslims to do that. Period.

You ask of Allah, and Allah alone because no man can bring you anything unless it's by the will of Allah (swt).

***If you read the Ayahs in Quran in their correct context and understand the message it conveys, you will see it addresses your concerns. Whatever they may be. Sometimes we don't understand something in Quran and need the help of a scholar or a learned person who has devoted his/her life studying Quran.
*

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Peace Seminole

I have spoken to you about this topic before. For some reason you are trying to re-equate the idol worshipping activities of some non-Muslims to the practice of Sunnah.

1) Following the prophet is a recommendation by God in the Qur'an
2) Though we do indeed say that Muhammad (SAW) is the best example for us to follow and we should love him more than even ourselves we never attribute his qualities to his own power.
3) We assert that he too is subject to Judgement
4) We are told to pray for him - Durud is supplication designed for us to ask God to send salutations and blessings on to the prophet Muhammad (SAW). If we worshipped him we could never ask such a thing because God does not need to be blessed. He is the one doing the Blessing.
5) When we thank someone in Islam we do not really thank them, rather we pray for them, that May Allah Reward them, because the only One Who deserves thanks is Allah (SWT).
6) When we receive such from a person we acknowledge God again by saying 'May Allah Bless You'.
7) We are in debt to Muhammad (SAW) because he has provided for us a complete and practical method of reaching a life standard pleasing to Allah (SWT).
8) Allah (SWT) tells no human is better than any other except by conduct, and that the good that we do due to copying someone else the person who is being copied will get the reward also. So with lots of people attributing their good due to the teachings of Muhammad (SAW) then surely he deserves a position of rank over us and on the Day of Judgement he will be there to Intercede for those who followed him.
9) The power of intercession is given to him by God, he cannot assume it on his own.
10) Muhammad (SAW) was created, he was born, he died and he felt tired, and pain and hunger. These qualities make him not worthy of worship. Understand Tawhid and thus understand respect vs worship.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Thanks for the reply, Psyah. I understand everything you posted and that is my understanding of Islam and Muhammad's position within it as well.

I don't mean to be hung up on the term "worship". That is not the proper word. Excessive adoration, beatification, glorification, idolization or laudation are probably a better description. What I cannot reconcile is your view above with the statement "if we place the whole universe on one side and the Prophet (saw) on the other side, Allah (swt) loves the Prophet (saw) more than the rest of the whole humanity".

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

This is made up statement, have no grounds or logic in it. niether any of supporter of this statement can provide reference to back it up. In conclusion this statement can be view point of some people but it has nothing to do with Islam. At this point, let me quote another statement which is repeatedly quoted by Street Mullas, it is like this, " Allah All Mighty have created this universe just for the Sake of Prophet Muhammad (SAAW)". Or something of this meaning.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Peace Seminole

Who Allah (SWT) loves I know ... but how much they are loved by Him is known by only Him The Merciful The Magnificient.

I do not negate the words above, but I do not confirm them either. It is not to say the notion is impossible. It may be possible. Afterall after Allah (SWT) we are to love Muhammad (SAW) in amount before ourselves, children, mothers, wives etc. So it is not to say the love coming back is not the same as the love going forth, because Muhammad (SAW) not only loved Allah (SWT) more than us, but he loved humanity and wanted us to succeed.

A people would harm him yet he would pray for their guidance.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

What is the source for this excessive love of the prophet? Islamically, I would be curious to know. Religiously, common sense, morally and ethically I have to think that there is, was and never will be one person that God loves more than all of humanity combined. It is one of them most blatantly excessive statements I have ever heard concerning the righteousness and judgment of God.

And I by no means intend to belittle Muhammad's piety or righteousness, but people throughout history, people I know have been harmed yet pray for the guidance of those who harmed them. I don't always succeed, but strive hard myslef to follow such principles.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

bro psych have very beautifully summarized it ...i think part of what seminole is saying goes back to the mistaken understanding of islam in the west as "muhammadian faith" as it was called e.g if u read W. Muir]

Quran basis of islam came from the lips of the Prophet[saw] it wasnt left on the walls of kaabah or on stones anywhere ...without belief that Muhammad [saw] was the most truthful and perfect human being there is no Quran

that is why those who doubted routinely him were called hypocrites [must be noted many companions did doubt some of his decisions at times but repented afterwards]

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

I just got a question....thought about it while watching something.

If Jesus (a.s.) was 'jewish' as they claim because he was born in a jewish household and raised 'jewish'....then how did Christianity come about? Shouldn't the followers of Jesus (a.s.) be jews as well? Or did Jesus (a.s.) preach in the name of 'Christianity' and claimed it to be as such, hence a new religion emerged?.....

Just curious....

What do you think?

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Peace bro. teggy

Good question. More emphatically the 'God' of the Christians was a Jew. The true followers of Jesus (AS) were also Jews, they did as he did, they performed his Sunnah. The converts of later years were allowed to become believers by the first followers because Isa (AS) told his companions to openly preach the religion to others, primarily because after his rejection enmass by the Jews he and his companions realised that another people will be chosen to uphold the banner of the religion. They were not quite sure who, but they spread the religion nonetheless. However, some people such as Paul gave the new converts too much slack and then those new converts gave rise to Popes who in turn mixed customs that were familiar to them into the faith to help bond the communities of the empire. Probably all done in 'good faith' but the result was a different religion fundamentally from the Christianity of the early followers of Jesus (AS) during his lifetime.

Followers of Christ have to be distinguished from worshippers of Christ. The same goes with Krishna and even Muhammad (SAW). The empahtic message of Abu Bakr As Siddique "For the one who worshipped Muhammad (SAW) know that he has died, but for ones who worship Allah (SWT) know that He is Alive and will never die"

However, Muslims do not believe that Christ (AS) has yet died, but we do believe he will one day. Some of his (AS) life characteristics misled people too, such as his parables were misunderstood, his Ascension and so on.

Seminole should understand that Muslims cannot even think of immitation of God. God cannot be immitated He is nothing like His Creation. For us to immitate someone it must be because he is immitatable making him like us - from creation.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah


Like Christians believe in their worshipping of Jesus?

What Seminole does understand is that statements like "if we place the whole universe on one side and the Prophet (saw) on the other side, Allah (swt) loves the Prophet (saw) more than the rest of the whole humanity" are outrageous yet unchallenged and even accepted amongst posters here. I don't care what term or semantics you want to use or avoid, but it is undeniably elevating a human to a level that God did not intend.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Peace Seminole

I see you caught my bait ... Christians worship Jesus (AS) we can see they do not follow him, those who do follow him do not worship him. Also, I think a major problem is what they say themselves. They will clearly state that they worship Jesus (AS), no Muslims will say that.

What you may have stumbled across is a sign of how people may gradually through time begin to start worshipping a person if we are not careful about how we represent adoration and respect of him. Now ... what of Krishna or Ram?

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah


Christian make no bones about saying that they follow and worship Jesus. They have for centuries. I understand that your interpretation of Christianity and their scriptures are different. Good for you. They have absolutely no problem with it.

But I have asked several Christian friends the past couple days if God loves Jesus or any one else more than all of humanity combined and the resounding answer is NO.

The Christian view is that Jesus was divine, the son of God, a part of God, God in human form. I understand that is not the Muslim view of Muhammad - he was but a mere man. Which makes this excessively over-the-top statement of adoration "if we place the whole universe on one side and the Prophet (saw) on the other side, Allah (swt) loves the Prophet (saw) more than the rest of the whole humanity" even more ridiculous.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Peace again Seminole

Actually the scriptures of the Christians are closer to the Islamic understanding than they are to their theology.

And for the comparison that you entertain that loving ones own son more than loving the whole of humanity is more likely than loving one member of humanity over the rest of it. You fall into an incoherent comparison. God does not take a son, so the argument fails there anyway. You have to justify that God actually took a son before you can ask whether He loves His son more than the rest of humanity. By entertaining the concept you have already reduced the Deity that Muslims understand to a humanistic one and that of course is subject to your rational judgement moreso than the Deity concept we understand.

As I said, I cannot negate that statement, but I cannot confirm it either. If it is found to be present in the scriptures then I will have no problem to accept the core message in that statement. God is not bound by our logic, He is not bound by anything infact except by that what He has bound Himself by principle to, provided the scenario is not paradoxical.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah


No incoherent at all. Christians worship Jesus that is a fact. Whether or not you think they should or Muslims do is irrelevant to that fact. So even they do worship him and believe him to be divine and part of God, they actually would DENY that God loves his only begotten son more than the rest of humanity combined. Most Christians believe God loves everyone, Christians, non-Christians, sinners and all. Even with the status of Jesus within Christianity he does not receive the acclaim that is awarded Muhammad by this statement.

[quote]
As I said, I cannot negate that statement, but I cannot confirm it either. If it is found to be present in the scriptures then I will have no problem to accept the core message in that statement. God is not bound by our logic, He is not bound by anything infact except by that what He has bound Himself by principle to, provided the scenario is not paradoxical.
[/quote]
I would think that as an avid student and follower of Islam you would be able to confirm or deny this statement. I have searched the Quran and find nothing of the sort.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Ok so we've established that Christians worship Jesus (a.s.). But why? He never preached for the people to worship him. So aren't Christians going against his teachings from the get go? Or do you have anything to show where Jesus (a.s.) declares and commands the people to worship him?

And IF he, Jesus (a.s.) is God, then why did he worship God?

Monotheistics beliefs are founded on the One and only God worthy of worship. Abraham (a.s.), the father of Monotheism, never worshipped any man but God alone.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah


We didn't establish anything. Christians have openly, knowlingly and lovingly worshipped Jesus long before Muhammad came along. Anyway, that is a whole different subject.

What we haven't established is where in the Quran it says anything along the lines that Allah loves Muhammad more than all of the universe combined.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

You didn't really address or answer my questions. But that's okay. Someone else will, i'm hopeful.

As for Allah loving Muhammah (pbuh). No doubt about it. How much exactly? We don't know because no one other than the prophets (may Allah be pleased with them) had the ability to communicate with Allah (swt).

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Then how can one possibly say "I believe that one thing is crystal clear. if we place the whole universe on one side and the Prophet (saw) on the other side, Allah (swt) loves the Prophet (saw) more than the rest of the whole humanity"?

We're not allowed to have a picture of the prophet or celebrate his birthday because that could lead to idolization ,yet we make statements like this out of the blue and all anyone can say "we don't know". If we don't know, why are such idolatry-type statements even made. If there is no word from God on this it obviously represents excessive reverence and adoration.

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Peace Seminole

Do you think it reasonable that there is enough evidence in the Qur'an and Sunnah to justify immitating Muhammad (SAW) as closely as that has been allowed by him to earn the pleasure of Allah (SWT)? If so, then the line or argumentation is irrelevant for us Muslims.

But if for you it is critical to know either way then let's say this ... Let's say that the statement is not true, will you then accept Muhammad (SAW) as the last messenger of Allah (SWT) The One Deity beyond which nothing is worthy of worship? And if such a matter troubles you to know that people are saying things out of adoration that defies your logic then remove those barriers from your perception as you see fit ... will that be enough to convince you of the truth of Islam? If not ... why not?

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Re: Ifs and Buts in Sunnah

Seminole I think you have raised a valid concern, which requires some pondering and further investigation. Maybe what some of us need to do is research into the debated question. This may require some time, of course.