This is from Irem’s thread and the recent discussions re: wanting to live in a country while simultaneously criticizing its policies.
i understand the point being made that one is taking advantage of the opportunities offered by the host country, but what i don’t understand is this mentality that you should conform to what is expected of you and say what society wants you to say. The whole point of getting an education in the first place is to broaden your mind. There were so many comments being made that people are leaching off of the US. First off, i can only speak for myself but my taking advantage of a Canadian education doesn’t mean that i have to start sucking up to the Canadian government. If anything, my education should teach me to think independently. Just because immigrant students move to another country to pursue more advanced levels of studies, doesn’t mean they have to silence their tongues now.
Simply by criticizing the country’s policies, doesn’t mean the person is anti-that country. That is the most stupidest thing, or at least one of the most stupidest things, i have come across. Hello - i thought that’s what western countries pride themselves on - allowing freedom of speech and expression. No matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on, you are allowed to articulate them as long as you don’t hurt anyone. What happened to that? That’s what i love the most - no matter what my political beliefs, i am as equal a citizen here as anyone else who kowtows to the adminstration. Countries have been founded upon those who dared to challenge the status quo - what’s a world without the Aung San Su Kyi’s and Nelson Mandela’s ? Mandela took advantage of an ‘elite’ education as well - what, that means he should have bent over backwards to accomodate the administration ?
And the bloody same thing applies to the Pakistani government as well. All the guppies who criticize me for cricitizing the Pakistani government for certain aspects - your hyper-sensitivity does your country no favours. A person’s right is to criticize their country if they love it; you engage in constructive criticism only when you care so much that you realize the potential for your country and have a passionate desire to see it improve. i pray for the day we realize that self-criticism does NOT equal a lack of patriotism. If you want a bunch of mindless drones all bowing to the same ideological/political/cultural strands of thought, then try some communist country where the state controls your every thought and action.
If someone wants to express that they disagree with a country’s policies - let them. It’s called free speech. It’s what the US was founded upon, or so i am told. Without it, there is no difference between a dictatorship and a democracy. Unless you all want a bunch of mindless morons repeating the same mantra again and again.
As long as one is not injuring someone else with her/his political thoughts and expressions, then let them be. Freedom of political/personal/cultural/religious expression is the hallmark of a civilized country. How a society treats its dissenters, is another hallmark. Without these two aspects, we might as well return to the Stone Age and go back to living in caves.
…..Or move to Saudi Arabia for that matter. A mullah’s Friday sermons inciting young minds to kill infidels is not covered by free speech or the 1st amendment. The laughable aspect of all this is that those who come here from countries where you can’t even pray freely according to your beliefs to lecture Americans on their policies.
When have i ever said that Saudi is known for its tolerance? Give me a frikkin break. i have always said just the opposite in the Religion Forum. Hello - i posted threads on the banning of construction of non-Islamic places of worship and i criticized that. So don’t tell me what i believe in and what i don’t.
Spock, Well that’s you What applies to you, will not necessarily apply to everyone else equally. Millions and millions of different people in this world - and we all think differently.
In some respects, i agree. i have NEVER, EVER praised the Saudi government.
i opened a thread in Religion Forum posting the stupid pictures of the presidents' faces on that building - and guess who criticized the dictatorship of all those Muslim Arab countries? Yers truly. i have always criticized them.
In the cold war era, with the Evil Empire in full swing there were thousands of US students in Russian Universities. I am sure not all of them worked for the CIA. The number of US students in China has doubled in the last decade. For third world countries like Pakistan, in 1988 UET, Civil department, half of the professors were graduates of Russian Universities.
So do you think all those US students studying in Russia and China loved communism and its policies. Do you think the UET professors were communists, mind you most of them were hardcore Jamaitiay. And if some one wants to go to Madina University to learn more about Islam, so in your point of view, he should drop that idea since the Saudis are freakin bigots.
You have completely missed the point, and have misinterpreted the criticism.
NO ONE is telling anybody not to speak thier mind. What we are trying to do is to get people to understand that the same government that they criticise has provided huge benefit and opportunity to foreign students.
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. The US heavily subsidizes college education. Tax breaks for contributors, both corporate and personal, low cost student loans, scholarships, research grants, endowed chairs, wavers from real estate taxes, land grants, and about a thousand other ways that either Americans or their governments make colleges much cheaper.
It's like inviting a guest to dinner, watching them eat four courses and then have them spit desert in your face. You may not like the desert, but you do owe your host a thank you for the invitation, an effort on your behalf, the four courses you enjoy, and a polite and gentile comment on the desert.
The effort here is to both acknowledge the good that Americans have provided you, and to become a member of the Democracy by voicing you disagreement. I have not heard ANYBODY telling students to shut up. I HAVE heard people reminding the impolite, rude and unthankful of the depth of the blessing they have received.
Frankly my conclusion is that most foreign students here on Gupshup are poorly behaved brats who figure they are owed something from the US. I say charge them double, and keep out the riff raff.....
OG, these hypocritical sentiments are actually a new phenomenon, where these folsk think they are owed for their mediocre talents. In the 60’s/70’s early 80’s when most of the “talented” South Asians came as doctors and engineers, they had no problem assimilating, they had no problems admitting to the opportunity they were given. aftererwardws the rest of the family or the vllage came.
Speak to South ASians from my parents generation, they were the most forward thinking liberal overachievers who made a life in this country because fo the opportunity they were presented. Nose to the grind…mixing up with the locals etc are part of the legacy of these folks. Shutting themselves into a local religious club and pointing fingers at everyone but themselves was not part of their mantra. That is why they achieved while these clowns bitch.
They claim racism, singling out etc…they have no clue that Indian doctors and engineers who came her in the 60’s worked under the most segregated of societies with misconceptions about cpabilities flying about. Those folks grinned and beared it, succeeded without the help of their parents back home and didn;t bitch!!!
These guys can be acused of one thing…and one thing only…mediocrity of talent and character.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by MiniMe: *
**In the cold war era, with the Evil Empire in full swing there were thousands of US students in Russian Universities. I am sure not all of them worked for the CIA. The number of US students in China has doubled in the last decade. For third world countries like Pakistan, in 1988 UET, Civil department, half of the professors were graduates of Russian Universities. So do you think all those US students studying in Russia and China loved communism and its policies. Do you think the UET professors were communists, mind you most of them were hardcore Jamaitiay. And if some one wants to go to Madina University to learn more about Islam, so in your point of view, he should drop that idea since the Saudis are freakin bigots.
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MiniMe, yaar i didn't mean to offend you... i am not certain if i have and IF i have, then how did i manage to do that ? Sorry, honestly confused here. If someone wants to study more about Islam - hey, all power to them. Go wherever in the world, doesn't matter to me. i think that is commendable. i am talking about the Saudi government, note, not the people as being 'freakin bigots'.
My point is this: when my family took me to Canada to study here, i didn't sign a piece of paper that said 'i promise to silence my tongue on all issues of political (inter)national importance'. i have my Canadian citizenship, my passport, everything; yes i have taken advantage of my government's educational institutions; yes i use the public transport system here; yes i have fines at my local library cuz i go there all the time; yes i mooch off of this country - but i have also given back to this country and will do so Insha'Allah in personal ways that i feel will benefit those most in need. There are aspects of it that i love. Just because i am studying here, does not mean that i have signed away my rights to express myself. No one can take that away from me, not even my government.
We’re not talking about a guest who comes to stay at your house. We’re talking about a student who lives, breathes, eats, cries and laughs in another country for sometimes four to five years. The “host” in your analogy also behaves quite differently than the US administration in more ways than one.
What is considered “polite and gentile comment[s]” from you, can be considered as silencing free speech by others. What’s polite for you? Who decides which student is being ‘polite’ and who is not ?
The problem is that there is a desire to keep a leash on peoples’ comments. You start doing that, and we might as well be living in a communist country.
I wish to study in S.A. For beer money I need a part-time job. I figure with a million + people around for the Hajj, I should open a hot-dog stand staffed by lingerie models.
I thinks it's silly that you can't sell hot dogs there. I dissent! Very strongly as a matter of fact! I will tell them that female flesh is not obscene, for that is what I believe. They're lucky to have me there a studyin' by gum. Defend me. Tell me it's ok everyone, because it's about me and what I think, and the way I think things should be in S.A. Right?
Minime Bhaijan, did those professor spit on their Commie hosts’ faces? Did they express their disgust of communism while studying there? The point is that why all of a sudden after being admitted to some C grade community college they become experts on what is wrong with their host country? Why can’t they have this awakening back in their own land?
Most Pakistanis go to study overseas wherever they can get some scholarship/grants from. Russia at one time offered plenty. No one wakes up one day wanting to go to University of Blagoveshensk graduate school.
Please show me where anybody told anybody to shut up. You have this completely wrong and out of context.
The point is that if you disagree with our foreign policy, very well, fine! But give the devil his due. The SAME government that you so easily slam has a good side too! How do you think all of those Universities sprouted up! A university is the culmination of years, or decades, or centuries of work and contribution by thousands if not millions of people. This is not buying a Pepsi from the 7-11.
To blast the government is the right of every citizen. They have EARNED that right and PAID for that right. In America we also give the freedom of speech to visitors. BUT, a polite visitor, one who has received an education that was partly paid by Americans should be certain to include thanks for an education that will benefit them for their entire life. We do not HAVE to let you in! We do it NOT because we have some need for your brilliance, but we do it as an open society.
"Frankly my conclusion is that most foreign students here on Gupshup are poorly behaved brats who figure they are owed something from the US. I say charge them double, and keep out the riff raff....."
I just received a very fair and balanced PM from Spock. There is a guy with his head screwed on right. I exclude him from the blanket statement above....
Rahter than being happy that the institutions are awaking people, you are worried that why are they getting this awaking here and especially in this time and age. It’s a sign of knowledge that they are asking all these questions. Like, whats wrong with this country :) I hope you believe in the blessing and grace of the lord, thanks that they are getting awakened. inshallah they will go back and awaken more people.
Look at the bright side, people are going to schools.
What applies to you, will not necessarily apply to everyone else equally. Millions and millions of different people in this world - and we all think differently.