If the situation was reversed!

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and most of those caught in such immoral acts were non-Pakistanis and 99% of the match-fixers were Pakistanis…I am sure the rest of the cricketing fraternity would be still ‘taking our class’ and urging us to get our house in order! Big-headed Aussies like Vaughan and Warne would be accusing Pakistan of corrupting cricketers around the world!

Is there any escape for us as Pakistanis?..aakhir sara nazla hum par hee kyon girta hai?

This is all sadly because of weak administration and leadership both at institutional (PCB) and government levels. The buffoons running PCB just do not know how to assert themselves in front of the world media or to handle adverse situations…do not know what to say exactly and how to say it in public. Diplomacy has never been PCB’s strong forte. They either become ultra defensive or when the officials do open their mouths they say something so ridiculous and unbelievable that it only backfires on us and makes matters even worse than before! … like our clown ambassador instead of shutting up till the whole investigation is complete, declaring players innocent and almost accusing ICC of some big conspiracy against Pakistan. With friends like these who needs enemies.

Has anyone from PCB raised their voice about match-fixers? The PCB officials should be saying: ‘yes we should punish the players if found guilty but at the same time the international community must also put pressure on the indian government because it is where all match-fixing emanates from.’ Every incident from the Hanse Cronje affair to the latest saga has an indian connection…senator Haroon Akhtar @ 17:40

The PCB should be asking both Pakistan Government and the cricketing fraternity to urge india to do something about the match-fixers in their country. You can perhaps never eradicate (too many stakeholders in professional cricket) the problem but you can certainly minimize it.

Punishing the players only without doing anything about the problem of match-fixers in india w’d be like treating the symptoms but not the disease…the problem w’d rear it’s ugly head again

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

Yea, pakistan should hand over the king of match fixers, Indian bookie Dawood Ibrahim to India. We can start with him.

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

Dawood resides in UAE

My anger is directed at three things - our administrators & cricketers (chief culprits) and the fact that all match-fixers are indians yet we are paying a heavy price for this

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

:rolleyes:

Shouldn’t you guys be concentrating more on your own housecleaning so that such incidents do not repeat in future rather than blaming the world for being oh-so-unfair. Even the Bangladeshi cricketers who are paid half and have lesser endorsement opportunities do not sell the honor of their country for a few bucks. This is not an isolated incident but Pakistani cricketers have been consistently been found to be involved in questionable activities over the last few years.
Here is something that I found on a Cricket forum . Maybe help you guys to introspect. :chai:

After having seen Pak fans react to various scandals involving Pak cricketers in the recent times (well there hasn’t been any shortage), I have seen the following approach Pak fans follow through the lifecycle of the event…

**Step 1 - Righteous Indignation: **We didn’t do it! We can never do it! Pakistan is the land of pure and Pakistanis are “honorable” people who can never cheat! Example - “Asif can never take drugs as this will bring shame and dishonor to the nation”. Funny thing is that Pak fans believe that people outside people associate words like “honour”, “integrity” etc. with Pakistan :slight_smile:

**Step 2 - Innocence Proclamation: **It was an accident or he is too young/innocent/simple to comprehend the meaning of his actions, or he didn’t mean to cheat. Example - “Asif was given the drugs by his hakeem”, or “Aamer is only 18 and too young to cheat” or “Afridi didn’t mean to tamper with the ball while chewing it, he was simply cleaning/shining the ball for the bowler”

Step 3 - Denial: It was everyone’s fault but the players’. Players are innocent lambs led astray by others. Example - “It was Indian bookies fault as they offered our players money”, or “Our bowlers were forced to tamper with the ball as the pitch was so lifeless”, or “Asif never took drugs, his coach/doctor/ICC at fault since they should have monitored what Asif’s hakeem was giving Asif”

Step 4 - Conspiracy Theory: It’s a conspiracy and the whole world is out to get us since they are jealous of us (another variation - they fear us)! Example - “BCCI/Indian Board along with Eng and Aussies wanted to ban our great world beating fast bowlers banned so that Pakistan cannot win the world cup”, or “It’s a conspiracy by the Indian Board to get our bowlers banned so that their batsmen can enhance their averages”

**Step 5 - Innocent till Guilty: **By this time Pak fans have finally figured out that their players are indeed guilty based on the evidence presented and they come up with “Inncoent till proven guilty” card. Example - “So what there’s a video tape evidence and the player actually bowled the no-ball, prove that in the court of law”, or “So what Asif’s urine sample contained steroids/banned performance enhancing drugs, this doesn’t prove anything. Try to prove Asif’s guilt in the court of law”. pak fans generally confuse sporting rules/ethics with criminal offences and for them players are only guilty if they are found guilty for some criminal endeavor :slight_smile:

Step 6 - Everyone does it: By now enough evidence has been found that even OJ Simpson jury would find the player(s) guilty, and so Pak fans play their last card of “What’s the big deal as everyone does it”. Example - “So what Aamer & Asif accepted bribes/money for bowling no-balls, even Tendulkar was caught for cleaning the ball without asking the umpire once”. This is akin to saying “So what this guy murdered 6 people in cold blood but even Abraham Lincoln lied once at the age of 5 and since both lying and murder are crimes, the murderer shouldn’t be punished as well.”

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

Dawood suffered Rs 50 crore loss due to third no-ball

The third no-ball bowled by Pakistan against England in the fourth Test match during the recently concluded series cost underworld don Dawood Ibrahim Rs 50 crore in Mumbai alone as his bookies had no clue about it.

The latest match-fixing scandal has put the spotlight on cricket’s dirty links with the underworld where spot fixing is not new. Sources told Headlines Today that only two no-balls were to be bowled by the Pakistan pacers. Bets of Rs 300 crore were riding on this match worldwide out of which betting worth Rs 50 crore was from Mumbai only, sources said.

Pakistani bookie Mazhar Majeed was assigned the task of spot fixing in this match. He was assigned the task of fixing two no-balls in two overs. The information was made available to all the bookies who had links with Dawood’s betting syndicate.

Everything was happening as per the plan. Both Mohammad Amir and Mohammad Asif bowled one no-ball each and the bookies made huge profits. But the tables turned when Asif bowled the third no-ball. It left the bookies in Mumbai stunned as they incurred huge losses, sources said.

Dawood’s men responsible for his betting syndicate in Mumbai – Junior Kolkata and Kothari – called up their boss Sunil Dubai. They requested him to call off the bets as following the third no-ball Mumbai’s bookies had started demanding that they return their money.

Sunil Dubai then informed Shoiab Khan – the man running Dawood’s betting syndicate from Karachi. Shoaib made it clear that any hue and cry over botched up fixing could expose the syndicate so it was better to return the money and bear the losses.

Underworld links in the betting syndicate have been speculated for quite sometime. But it is only now that stronger evidence has emerged. Instructions are given from Dubai and Karachi and all moves are planned before the game. As far as profit and losses are concerned, it is all a part of the game.

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

The Interpol page
http://www.interpol.int/public/data/noticesun/notices/data/1993/93/1993_14193.asp
says he lives in

ADDRESSES
WHITE HOUSE, NEAR SAUDI MOSQUE, CLIFTON in KARACHI (Pakistan)
HOUSE NU 37 - 30TH STREET - DEFENCE, HOUSING AUTHORITY in KARACHI (Pakistan)

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

@ N3m3sis - You did not read my post carefully. Ofcourse we must clean our own house. That should be the first step but you cannot also deny that all match-fixing emanates from india. Every single incident has an indian connection! .... yeh sara gund tau india se shurouh hota hai! It cannot be just mere coincidence.

You cannot look at the problem in isolation

And as I said in my original post even if Pak cricketers were clean but all match-fixers were Pakistanis, the rest of the world would be still accusing us of all sorts of things. It is all because of weak leadership and corrupt management at both PCB and government levels

btw thread is not about dawood ibrahim - I have no love lost for him..

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The usual Indians can never be corrupt garbage being displayed here. Just got to mention that bookies are from India and they get all defensive. don’t give a damn about Dawood, but is he the only bookie in India. if not than get on with cleaning the rest of the rubbish. As for nemisis the same points apply to you people as well. Remember when the Indian god tendulkar was caught ball tampering in South Africa the whole India spend the next few weeks sleepless and cursing the english umpire.

aa jatey hain :rolleyes:

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

Let's simplify this :

All bribe givers seem to emanate from India, all bribe takers seem to emanate from Pakistan.

Now who is more guility ?

Blaming India for all this mess is like accusing the woman in a rape crime because the woman was too seductive.

There are no two ways about it....it is Pakistan that has some serious cleaning work to do, not India.

The bookies are not International Cricket players and so ICC has no control over them. If you are waiting for the world to rid itself of Indian bookies, you may as well wait forever.

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

but indian government surely can do something here. And again you did not read my post carefully. I know you cannot eradicate the problem completely but you can surely take steps to minimize it.

Yes principal blame lies with the players if they are proven guilty. no two opinions on that. but I w'd again say that you cannot look at the whole problem of betting and match-/spot-fixing in isolation and just punish the players. That w'd be like treating fever due to chest infection with paracetamol!

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

Asif, I can see where you are coming from. It takes two to tango however what is more realistic? Gambling in India is like the air we breathe. Actually, gambling in Pakistan over cricket matches is extremely common too but ICC, PCB or Indian cricket board can’t do much about it even it they try.

Ironically, people who are upset about players getting caught also include those who bet on every match in Pakistan. Corruption in the subcontinent is a way of life. sometimes I feel sorry for these three just because they got caught and others are still playing.
If someone stands up here and claims IPL to be clean as a whistle, I would laugh the guy off.

Agreed that we have major weakness in our leadership and players and the world finds us guilty at times when we may not even be guilty but the change is in our own hands.

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The bookies might be Indian but the players who deliberately bowled no-balls in front of an international audience for personal finacnial gain are Pakistani.

India and all other countries have their fair share of corruption and if the roles were reversed and it was some other country who had disgraced the game as Pakistan has just done, then they would be held just as accountable.

Simple as that.

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

Some good points..and some highly illogical ones too.

Of course the Indian government should do something about the army of bookies operating in India because these are illegal activities. The government already is. Not doing a great job of course but then again the Indian govt (like most govts, specially from developing countries) does not do a great job on most things.

Corruption is rampant in the subcontinent so any claims from Indians or Pakistanis or Srilankans that their countries are not corrupt is garbage.

Cricket players and admins are a different story though. Pak admin and cricketers have proved to be corrupt over and over again in the last 10ish years. Corrupt as in match fixing or steroid use or severe cases of ball tampering.. not breaking minor ICC rules like excessive appealing. Few Indian cricketers were caught doing this crap 10 yrs ago - the cricket admin acted strictly and banned these players. Sets a precedent. Pak admin covered it up / did not act harsh enough on the players and the disadvantages of that are still showing. It's become a part of the system. Blaming corruption in India is not going to solve this.

Corruption is not going to be eradicated completely from India or Pak or BD or SL anytime soon. The ICC or the BCCI or the PCB cannot do anything about this. All they can do is punish the offenders within the cricket fraternity severely to stop current and future cricketers getting into this mess. That's all.

At the moment the Pakistani board and fans (and fans all around the world) should concentrate on punishing the current crop of offenders. Not try to defend them or try to get them off the hook lightly. That will again be counterproductive in the long run.

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Well on this one I have to side with the Indian viewpoint….there is absolutely no way that illegal bookies’ circles can be completely or even partially eradicated in Bombay….it is just not possible…we all know this…no one has resources and political will to do so…the only rational solution is to restrict players…period….all of us know how difficult it is to eradicate match fixing from players….imagine the level of difficulty one has to face trying eradicating match fixing rackets from Bombay’s underworld

But it is an interesting topic that asif has brought up……let me say that that when it comes to confining to conspiracy theories or tackling national issues non-objectively, Indians are even worst than Pakistanis…and I am not saying this because of any inherent animosity against my neighbors…my observation is based on anecdotal evidences gathered from my personal relationships and academic observations…

I have hundreds of Indian friends over in USA…. it is virtually impossible to have an objective discussion with them on any issue that involves negativity about India….try talking to them about non-Pakistan issues such as over-glorification of Indian economy, widening of economic disparity, difficulties that global companies face doing business in India, weak fundamentals of Indian economy etc. and boy see their reaction….they will immediately take a defensive position…and yeah, there is absolutely no way you can talk to them about Indian muslims or kashmir!!… and it is a common denominator with every Indian whether he is from south or north…on the other hand, we Pakistanis are actually pretty open about discussing weak points in our society ..i have seen Pakistani friends discussing mohajar issues in Karachi or escalating Baluchistan problems with Indian friends in an open and frank manner usually bashing the Pakistan establishment

I have also followed the Indian press regularly for last 15 years or so….it is just mind boggling how shamelessly and cowardly the Indians press adheres to Indian government’s stated policies on any bilateral issue that involves either Pakistan or China…..whether it is about Kashmir, Water, Siachin glacier or Terrorism, you will hardly find any objective viewpoint from the Indian side….it is always Pakistan who needs to put his house in order…and I am talking about prominent English Indian newspapers from Hindu to Hindustan times to Outlook…on the other hand, DAWN, Daily Times and NEWS publish really objective and balanced articles on all sensitive issues…as a mater of fact a current survey indicated that more Indians access DAWN online than Pakistanis….

speaking of cricket, Indians have not behaved very differently on numerous occasions most notably when tendulakr was caught doing ball tampering…both Pakistanis and Indians are emotional people who try to hide their weaknesses, I guess…

India will also suffer amid its lack of self-introspection culture just like pakistan…deficiency of honest evaluation of problems and getting to the root of the issues is also deteriorating the fabric of Indian society…I am waiting (quite eagerly) for Uttar Pradesh state’s high court globally-watched verdict on babri mosque that will come any time in September. I am not worried about the court….i am sure it will make the decision on merit but I am interested in seeing BJP’s reaction to it!..ok enough of politics…sorry!

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

Phoenix.. great points regarding cricket and match fixing.

I agree with a lot of your political and social observations and disagree with some. But this is not the right place to get into that so I will leave it alone. My only request is to stop stereotyping any group of people. Even if 80% of them do it.. it is not fair to label all of them with the same brush.

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@ PD

'Defensive' is the word here. We all become very defensive when someone points an accusatory finger at us....objectivity kee aisi kee taisi

btw. My favourite indian cricketer is not Sachin or Gavaskar or Dravid but KAPIL DEV (he has a good head on his shoulders)

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Re: If the situation was reversed!

What are you trying to say? how is it related to this thread?

You are lost dude...I can write hundreds of pages how pakistanis are...never mind... as Sharabee says this is not the forum to discuss...

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GA..I am so surprised that you are blaming Indians for your wrong doings.

You do not have to love any Indian cricketer or for that matter any Indian. Punish the culrpits and correct your corrupt board members.

There is good and bad in everyday life. You have to choose which one you want. If you keep on blaming Indian bookies for your wrong doings..It is nonetheless nonensense.

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^ there is a thing called reading fully and comprehension :chai:

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@ Xephr

^ blaming our cricket administrators and cricketers prinicipally for the current mess. And yes I cannot hide my anger and frustration about indian bookies too.