If not Islam, then what?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Dear People,
Assalamualaikum.
This question is somewhat related to 714’s, but I am specifically interested in hearing from those people who insist Islam is NOT the code by which to live, or that Islam does not provide us with evidence as to the nature of existence.
If you guys don’t believe in Islam, do you believe in Allah?
Are you agnostics? Athiests???
Why is YOUR chosen path any better than Islam?
Please be ready to support your point of view. I do not mean to antagonize anyone. I’m curious.
…and of course
LET’S BE CIVILIZED.
:slight_smile:

[This message has been edited by Yasmeen (edited 09-01-98).]

2

Hello Yasmeen . . .

Here I am. In your "religious" discussion. Before I go any further yaar I want you to know one thing: I am not "allergic" to religion. Yes, I avoid entering into discussions where I would use any particular faith to substantiate my views because not everyone is of the same faith as I.

Further, my thoughts and feelings regarding Allah and Islam are very near and dear to me. Too often in my life I have had nothing else to turn to or rely on. My tie with Allah is extremely personal. I cannot share that part of me -- at least not yet.

Maybe one day I will be able to speak freely and openly on the subject. Maybe one day I will have resolved all that prevents me from doing so today. Until then, however, I refuse to expose that part of myself to attack. As I referenced above, Allah is my only tie with this world and my only commitment is to Him. I cannot allow anyting to jeapordize that delicate link.

Now to answer your questions:
By rights I should not be posting because you only want to hear from people that believe Islam is not the code by which to live. I can't say that I am one of them.
Do I believe in Allah? Yes I do.
Am I agnostic? See above.
Am I atheist? See two lines above.
Why is my chosen path any better than Islam? I have made no such claim.

Hope I have managed to express my position on the matter clearly.

I'd love to put a smilie here but, believe it or not, I never did learn how . . .

[This message has been edited by Muzna (edited 09-01-98).]

[This message has been edited by Muzna (edited 09-01-98).]

3

Muzna,
Thanks for replying, yaar. I do apologize if I have offended you by implying that you did not beleive...I am so sorry, because I was told that if one Muslim calls another a disbeliever, one of the two people in the conversation is IN FACT a disbeliever. That is a very big ILZAM, and may Allah (and you) forgive me for insinuating such things.
If you do not wish to discuss this, I respect that. It just made me sad that someone as intelligent as you did not appreciate the fact that for many of us, Islam and its guidelines, its evidence, is all we need to live our lives. If that was not your meaning, again, I'm sorry!
Finally, I'd like to say that I am in no position to preach to anyone. I have enough trouble trying to keep myself on the "straight and narrow", much less be Mian Faseehat to anyone else. I figure if I can make a good case for MYSELF on the day of judgement, and maybe for my children (to be :)), I won't have done too badly.
So, thanks again and please forgive me for my ongoing hastily formed opinions. I grow up a little every day, believe it or not!
Here's a smiley face for you!
:)

4

Yasmeen,

No offense taken whatsoever so don't be worried.

Since nobody has ventured to attack me -- yet -- I'll be brave enough to say a couple more things before I run scared of this topic . . .

I have nothing but appreciation, respect and admiration for anyone that holds firm belief in Islam or in whatever faith they practice. It is an accomplishment to lead a life as disciplined as that of a momin.

In your message you have touched upon a subject that never ceases to annoy me. It is the reference to "preaching". This is an all too common phenomenon in our society. Everybody and their brother/sister is poised with a "lecture" or reference from the holy book to tell you how and why you are misbehaving. Too many folks are ready to issue fatwas at the drop of a hat. In fact, just today I read a message where one individual dared to suggest that it is "haram" for women to work. When this comment was questioned with a valid example the comment was re-phrased to state a "degree" of prohibition. I take exception to that approach. Either working is haram or it isn't. (Keeping aside life threatening circumstance where certain haram substances/activities have been made halal.)

I agree whole-heartedly that if I am able to answer for my own actions and come clean when the bell tolls on that final day I will have exceeded my expectations.

Yasmeen, I really admire the approach that you continually display on the forum. Keep it up . . . I learn from you too y'know!

5

Yasmeen and Muzan thanx you put a lot into words that i would like to say myself but didn't know how. I too, find that ALlah is the one to turn to in MANY situations. Thanxs and
Khuda Hafiz

6

Muzna, so you noticed that little discussion, huh?
;)
My feeling is that Islam is a very tolerant religion. Otherwise, there is no way it would have survived so long, in a form probably pretty close to the "original" message. There are a lot of people out there who want Islam to be accepted as an absolute measure in its most extreme form, but I disagree with that on the basis of the education our religion provides us. Islam is perhaps the only major religion that does away with "middlemen", people without whose "interpretation" you would not know how to follow the religion. (As far as I know, Judaism keeps very close and secretive tabs on the actual Torah, and Christianity in most of its forms allows priests to act as God's mouthpieces by deciding what is wrong, how wrong, and what penance will adjust off your wrongdoing khata.) Islam asks you to educate yourself and to look to the Quran, which Allah has PERSONALLY promised will never be adulterated, and to the sunnah for guidance. Throughout time.
That is why I feel satisfied with accepting whatever my study of the religion has shown me.
That is also why I would answer to the people on the other forums who say that Islam and science are not compatible, to be a little more educated before they knock Islam. There are many ayyahs in the Quran, which upon close study reveal answers to the great mysteries of our world. However, the wording is in itself extremely mysterious. Perhaps this is because we don't yet possess the knowledge to fully understand what the words mean. Perhaps it is because the Quran came down at a time when magic and djinns etc. were phrases used daily and so the wording had to be in a way that the people of that time could understand, too.
I don't profess to know for sure, but I do know that there are many things (especially disease related) that the Quran and sunnah have talked about for a long time, which MODERN SCIENCE is just now "discovering". Based upon those correlations, I am satisfied that there are other revelations which will come about as we humans become knowledgeable and recognize that there is One above us who is All-knowing. :)
You don't HAVE to reply to any of this. I'm glad we do have a forum to discuss these things in an educated manner.
Ma'as salamah.
:)

7

leh!
ai tay tusee aapis ich ee galaa(n) karan dae o!

8

Bhai Some one else.
Nobody was listening to these two girls in other sections. So, they thought that they should come to religious section aur apnee der'h eant kee masjid bana lain. Got it, "der'h eant kee masjid" in "Religious section". Haha haha ha... Oh god, I am killing myself, here.

[This message has been edited by Tariq Khan (edited 09-01-98).]

[This message has been edited by Tariq Khan (edited 09-01-98).]

9

Ussalaamu-Alaikum!
I am a native born American, and convert Muslim female. Islam is the ULTIMATE and complete religion. I was born Christain. Those who have different thoughts must learn more before demanizing Islam/Muslims. If some one is interested I have some info I can e-mail that may get some attention and open some eyes of those who think other religion(s) are/is better then Islam.

I would conclude with:
Knowledge will forever govern the Ignorance, the people who want to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.

Wama Alaina illal balagh

Jacqueline
Your Sister in Islam

10

UA!

Those who issues FATAWA ( it is HARAM for woman to work)out of ignorance must remeber that:
Hazrat Khadija(RA) was a business woman before she married to ZProphet Muhammed(SAV) and she continued to run her business after her marriage to Prophet Muhammed(SAV). It the socalled FATWA is right, I like to know as a conver t Muslim where Islam says that a woman be just for sex, giving birth to childre, cooking, cleaning. FACT:
Nowhere these duties for a woman is mentioned, for men including Muslims it is not a right it is a privilege except sexual intercouse for married Muslim men, provided the woman is healthy and is in sound mind.
Please allow me to be open since Islam does not allow a woman to be a COW or GOAT. The person who has issed this FATWa must have his head examined or be immediatley institutionalized. Memorizing few SURAHs does hardly qualify one to issue a FATWA.
What we need is IJTEHAD, that has not happened since centuries.

JW
YS in Islam

11

Askm Sister Jacqueline!

Thank you kindly for your input in this discussion. I have always found converted Muslims to have a much greater appreciation for Islam than those that are merely born into the faith -- thereby becoming "Muslims by default" if you will.

Best wishes!

12

Assalam O Alaikum !!!

I think the sisters are very much angry on the statement which may be i have given that Working of Women is Haram, Wallah , i didn't gave a fatwa, or a order, i just said wat i think. I don't consider myself an alim or a scholar, so please don't think i have given a fatwa, i just said wat i think is correct and i am very much firm on wat i said.

In the same forum, i have posted new msg, in which i have clearly stated what i meant by saying that working is haram for Women. No doubt, Ummulmomineen Hazrat Khadija raziallah tallah anha was doing business. Islam forbades women to come out of the house without any uzar. No doubt they can work, if its really necessary, but then also they should take care of the Hijab / parda. I don't think there is any need for a woman to go out and work, if her husband / father / brother can feed her well and take care of her requirements.

Neways, rite now i don't have enough matter on this topic, if u really want to discuss this thing, let me search for some related material so that i can inshallah convince u.

Just one thing for the sisters, ever 1 in this world loves freedom, so is the case with women, they need freedom to work, they need freedom to wear wat they want, they need freedom to work and compete with men. BUT, if we are muslims we have to limit our needs, wishes and desires within the boundries of Islam.

Inshallah I hope, all the sisters must be satisfied with my answers. Inshallah :)

Muzna : i was looking at one of the posts in which u have written islam attacks the general forum like a plague, just think once again wat u have said and i hope u will know by yourself.

Jazakumullah khair

Allah Hafiz / Assalam O Alaikum.

13

Tariq sahib, Baymoqa mazaq buray zoq ka muzahira karta hai.

Niaz Bhai, let me say that I for one am not angry, nor do I think you issued a fatwa of any sort. I respect the fact that you (like me) acknowledge the fact that you are not a scholar. I also respect the fact that you refrained from getting chatty on this topic until you had done some more research on this matter. This is exactly how I would approach the issue. To paraphrase Sister Jacqueline knowledge is the weapon of the intelligent Muslim and Muslimah.

Sister Jacqueline, welcome to the forum. I look forward to learning from you :)

Muzna dear, I hope you haven't been turned off by the sudden quasi-fanatic turn the topic has taken. I look forward to hearing from you again. :)

Once again, let's try to continue our discussion in an educated and tolerant manner.

[This message has been edited by Yasmeen (edited 09-01-98).]

14

UA Munza, Yasmeen, & y'all!

Thanks for your kindness. I got interested because the man I am married to was born in Pakistan. he is the one who inspired me about Islam; before I married to him I became Muslim my on my free will. Since the I have learned more about Pakistan, Islam, Muslims. I likied the way you all have a candid chat, but my sense of decency was also offended when I browsed on other page from Pakistan. I persoanlly feel that majority of Muslim men need to grow up as my husband says that this is also one of the reason for Muslim down fall that half/better part of their life (wife/woman) is living in suppress enviroment
in the name of Islam, where as Islam doesn't have to do anything to that.
I wasn't aware about the person who made the comment about woman, until I read Niaz's apology, I didn't mean to put anyone on spot.

Jackie

15

Niaz saheb,

First and foremost, I am not angry. I could never hope to convey my message or to comprehend anyone else's views if I approach the situation with frustration.

You have taken the "fatwa" comment personally . . . why? I did not say that you issued a fatwa . . .I said that you "dared to suggest that it is "haram" for women to work". Now, I have limited knowledge of such subjects but I believe that a "fatwa" qualifies as much, much more than a mere "suggestion". So let's keep the discussion within reach and avoid taking things personally. I am sure that we will accomplish more that way.

As regards my comments directed towards Islam taking over the General section of the forum -- I would respectfully suggest that you reflect on that comment and instead of viewing it in a negative manner or as an attack directed towards Islam, give it only the significance it deserves. It was an analogy used to describe a situation nothing more.

Further, by my beliefs, if anyone does decide to attack Islam with defamatory language, it would not anger me. For me Islam is greater than anything that can be thrown at it. We are mere mortals that use a rudimentary form of communication -- words. We could never achieve the level of expression that is required to attack Islam. That goal is not within our reach.

Kehnay ka matlab yeh hai kay insaan ko apnay imaan par itna yaqeen hona chahiyay kay kissee kay kuch keh daynay say koi farq na paray. Main nahin samajhtee kay kissee kee pohonch, kam az kam alfaazon kay zariyay, itnee ho saktee hai kay Islam kee tauheen ho sakay. Agay apni apni marzee aur apnay apnay sochnay ka andaaz.

Yasmeen,
I am discouraged but not turned off. I will continue to read this thread with interest but I doubt that there is anything further that I can add to help it grow.

I have no issues with Islam but several with fundamentalism, fanaticism and extremist opinions. When Allah has clearly stated that He is merciful, kind and forgiving then surely we are in no position to judge one another.

Finally, one of the main reasons why I avoid debates of a religious nature is that the topic rarely remains aligned. People have a tendency to take off on personal attacks and convoluted tangents. (e.g. Niaz saheb's suggestion that women want to compete with men) If a participant in the debate is going to approach with such preconceived notions, how can we hope to have an impartial and dispassionate discussion?

I think this is where I bow out . . . .

16

Yasmeen:

[quote]
“My feeling is that Islam is a very tolerant religion.”
[/quote]

Does Islam not sanction death for apostacy ?

[quote]
"“Islam is perhaps the only major religion that does away with "middlemen",
people without whose "interpretation" you would not know how to follow the religion.”

[/quote]

Brelvis and Sufis constitute a significant proportion of the Muslim Ummah and both sects advocate the following of a spiritual guide as necessary.

Muzna:

[quote]
“I have always found converted Muslims to have a much greater appreciation for Islam than those that are merely born into the faith”
[/quote]

Converted Muslims often approach Islam from an idealised perspective. In addition their contact with Muslims is often positive. For many of us born within the Muslim
Ummah we have seen the darker side of our culture. We have seen and experienced zulm perpetrated in the name of Islam.

If time permits I'll write in more detail.

Farouq Taj.

17

Yasmeen
Bibi maa'zrat khwa hoon. Jub zouq hai hee bura to achchay zaouq ka muzahira kaisay kar sakta hoon. Chalain, achcha hua kay aap ko bhee pata chul gaya.

P.S Waisay itnee sanjeedgee bhee koee bohot aqalmandee kee baat naheen hotee. :)

18

Farouq_Taj,
Assalamualaikum,
I'm SOOOO glad you brought up one of my PET PEEVES.
Please note, religion is not the same thing as culture. There are many aspects of the "Islam" practiced in Pakistan which has been bastardized because of our peoples' ties to Hinduism. Please don't discuss religion and culture as if they were one and the same.

Apostasy punishable by death? Not that I've heard of. I know that in Pakistan families "disown" you if you abandon Islam, but a lot of what Pakistanis practise is not Islamic.

One of the weaknesses of Islam today is the fact that the religion has splintered into "shia". Note I'm using the Arabic meaning of the word, which translates to "sects". These sects and their petty little differences serve to give the followers of Islam a bad name and cause friction in our world. However, they are an evil Allah has warned us about in the Quran (I'll provide the reference if you don't know what I mean). If we are to succeed as Muslims, we MUST avoid dividing into little sects and looking at Islam only its extreme "versions". The "shia" you mentioned above, Sufis and Brelvis, are Pakistani/Indian fabrications, are they not?

I still maintain that Islam is, as a deen or the guidelines for daily life, a tolerant and practical religion. Educate yourself, Mr. Taj, and you will NOT need to fear the "dark side".

Thank you, and Ma'as Salamah.

[This message has been edited by Yasmeen (edited 09-02-98).]

19

Assalam alaikum

Niaz

Many people make the mistake of using the dreaded words "I think" when explaining Islam and they make a mistake and then end with the words "I don't know really, but". You should be more careful.

Man doesn't have the power to legislate and that is what separates us from the secular world. Ultimately it is the Laws of Allah that we follow.

Sister Waheed

Could you give the source for the statement that Hadhrat Khadija (R.A.) was a businesswoman. Don't worry I think its useful to know.

Muzna

What's the difference between Fundamentalism, Extremism and Fanaticism?

Yasmeen

You also mention "Islam in its extreme form". What do you mean by it?

You said: "Islam is perhaps the only major religion that does away with "middlemen", people without whose "interpretation" you would not know how to follow the religion."

Are you sure this is what you meant to say?

It is true, Apostasy is punishable by death.

Farouq_taj

Islam is tolerant in the sense that there are many fardh which can be excused in certain situations e.g. a person on a journey only has to read 2 rakaats of fardh namaaz, we don't have to fast in certain situations.

Apostates are not tolerated in the same way that the kuffar do not tolerate anti-secular activists. In Islam the apostates are first advised and then if they don't change then they are sentenced to death. In the west they are called terrorists or extremists or fundamentalists and are continually tortured in prisons.

Visit this page: www.islamworld.net and look under Misc. Pamphlets and read

PRISONS:the dwellings of our scholars and
Sheikh Huthayfi's Khutbah.

Dark side of Islam?, on what basis did you make this statement?

Zulm comes about when people turn to bidah in Islam .

A good example of this is: In Egypt some Muslims seem to believe that female circumcision is Islamic and they practice this abhorrent act in the name of Islam.

This act is entirely cultural and not Islamic.

kh.

[This message has been edited by Mudassar (edited 09-02-98).]

20

Example of Islam in its extreme form: Taliban. Keeping educated women (doctors and teachers) locked up at home in a country where the population desperately needs any and all resources.
Islam does not require middlemen. That is why we "talk" to Allah five times a day. Allah has said, tell my people "Udooni, astajib lakoom." Call me. I will reply to you. Direct dialing.
If you say apostasy is punishable by death, please provide sahih hadith, or a Quranic or sunnat reference.