If not Islam, then what?

Yasmeen:

I accept and agree that religion and culture are not the same. However religion cannot exist in a vacuum, religion will always sit in the context of a culture. Pakistani culture has been influenced by Hinduism but I had the Islamic aspects of our culture in mind when writing.

There are many aspects of our culture that are justified using Islamic fiqh and it is these that we need to explore and discuss
as Muslims.

Sects exists within the Ummah and their existence is itself not a problem. As the Ummah has grown in size and complexity it is
inevitable that differences will arise in our interpretation of Islam. The problem arises when Muslims are unable to accept the
differences that exist.

I used the Brelvi sect as an example because it originates from the Indian subcontinent but divisions in Islamic theology are not new. Ibn Taymiyah, Imam Hanifa, Imam Gazali have all had their critics and followers. I am merely pointing out (though not endorsing) the Brelvi idea that we must follow a sheikh.
This is clearly a 'middle man'. This is an ongoing theological debate between Brelvis and Wahabbis and volumes of literature has been written on this subject (the need for someone to intercede for you).

If I have time I'll post the hadith on apostacy however I have provided hadiths in the past in previous discussions here and I find it makes no difference to people opinions.

I think it's worth answering your original question which started this thread.
Your question assumes that those of us who criticise Islam are advocating nihilism.
While that may be the case for some I'm motivated to criticise because I really want
to believe in everything within Islam. As someone has infered above religious faith is
a tremendous source of strength that we can all rely on particularly in trying times. I want to be able to draw on that strength. In summary I believe in Allah and I believe in the Akhira but I still have reservations about some things I read in the Quran and Sunnah.

Niaz

"Man doesn't have the power to legislate and that is what separates us from the secular world."

Man must legislate in order to continue living in a civilised society otherwise we might as well take to the caves. Where I live (UK) there is legislation that requires a seat belt to be worn when driving, maximum speed limits are imposed for cars. In Industry there is legislation governing working hours and safety requirements that need to be complied with. You cannot find absolutely everything in the Quran and Sunnah. Wake up Niaz we're entering the 21st century you missed the 7th a while back.

With regards to apostacy you make the usual mistake of pointing to the West. The West does this, the West does that. We are discussing Islam not the West please try and stay focused on the discussion at hand and
avoid going off at a tangent to discuss the 'evils' of the West.

In discussing zulm you used female circumcision as an example, clearly your aware of some of the 'darker' aspects
of Islam yourself. Female circumcision is justified using specific hadiths where the prophet of Islam allowed the practice. Yes it's cultural but the justification is Islamic.

Farouq Taj.

Farouq Bhai,
I think you've gotten Niaz and Mudassar confused, no?
Going back to the sects thing, is it wrong of me to suggest that we as Muslims look to the three things which we are almost guaranteed as being true? Quran, Sunnat, and sahih hadith. In today's world, it is hard enough to follow the basics of Islam (the 5 pillars + staying away from the kabirah gubahs) without getting bogged down in details. Is it a bad thing to want to SIMPLIFY, to look to the unalterable truth as a starting point, and once we feel we are covering all the bases there, then head out to become "complete" Muslims?
Does that make any sense?
Finally, thank you for suggesting we stay on topic instead of going off on wild tangents. Might I also add that if we want our discussion to be useful, let's add something positive to the discussion instead of just doing "nukta cheeni"?
Shukria and Ma'asSalamah.

THE ONLY SOLUTION IS READY FOR THIS......... Communism... YES... THERE'S NO.. NO.. RELIGION IN COMMUNISM but PEOPLE WILL STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO STUDY THEIR RELIGION.. IF I WERE THE COMRAD(LEADER). PAKISTAN SHOULD BE COMMUNIST SAME WITH AMERICA!!!

I must differ with Miss Yasmeen regarding her views on culture and relegion. If she wishes to observe relegion in the puritanical sense then she must also assume that Humans are robotic recepients of the written word.
If relegion is to be evaluated it must be done within the confines of the culture it thrives in. The true test of the car is most certainly on the road and not in the showroom.
You asked the question " If not Islam then what? " . I think an overwhelming majority of muslims have already answered your question. They have through their actions rejected the structure of Islam and chosen different lifestyles in accordance to personal will or culture.
Pure Islam in the ritualistic sense is practised by a small minority. The others have already chosen an easier alternative.
Resistance

Resistance,
Thank you for taking the time to express your opinion here. I wish you luck in pursuing the "easier alternative".
If you don't mind, can I ask you a few questions?
What, if any are the principles that guide your everyday behavior? What do you consider moral and immoral? Are these rules set in stone, written down somewhere, or do you make them up as you go along?
I hope you will write back.

Assalam Alaikum

Yasmeen

At this moment we don't really know what Taleban really stand for. The recent bombings in Sudan and Afghanistan creates doubts in our minds about what the Taleban really want. The part in Afghanistan which was bombed was a stronghold for the opposition to the Taleban.

If you mean pir saabs and etc. when you talk about "middlemen" then it is true. These people claim to be friends of Allah (Walis). Humility takes a person closer to Allah (S.W.T.) and makes a person pious. A true Wali would never admit to being a Wali and would never advertise himself to the world claiming to be a Wali just because he has read tasbih a certain amount of times. These people cannot intercede on our behalf. Only the Prophet (S.A.W.) can intercede on our behalf.

Heres the proof for death for apostasy.

Fiqh-us-Sunnah

Fiqh 1.77b

One Who Ignores His Prayers

Not praying and denying its obligation is seen as disbelief and places the person outside the religion of Islam. All scholars agree on this piont. They base their opinion on several hadith, some of which are:
Jabir reports that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "Between a person and disbelief is discarding prayer." (Related by Ahmad, Muslim, Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah.)
Buraidah reported that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "The pact between us and them is prayer. Whoever abandons it is a disbeliever." (Related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhi, anNasa'i and Ibn Majah.)
'Abdullah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas reported that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, one day mentioned the prayer and said, "Whoever guards and observes his prayer, they will be a light and a proof and a savior for him on the Day of Resurrection. Whoever does not guard and obvserve them, they will not be a light or a proof or a savior for him. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be with Qarun, Fir'aun, Haman and Ubayy ibn Khalf." (Related by Ahmad, at-Tabarani and Ibn Hibban. Its chain is excellent.)
That one who does not pray will be with the leaders of the unbelievers in the Hereafter makes it evident that such a person is an unbeliever. Says Ibn al-Qayyim, "The one who does not pray may be preoccupied with his wealth, kingdom, position or business. If one is kept away from his prayers by his wealth, he will be with Qarun. One whose kingdom keeps him away from the prayers will be with Haman, and one whose business keeps him away from the prayers will be with Ubayy ibn Khalf."
Says 'Abdullah ibn Shaqiq al-'Aqeely, "The companions of Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not consider the abandonment of any act, with the exception of prayer, as being disbelief." (Related by at-Tirmidhi and al-Hakim, who said it met al-Bukahri's and Muslim's conditions.)
Says Muhammad ibn Nasr al-Mirwazi, "I heard Ishaq say, 'It is authentic (that) the Prophet (said or ruled): One who does not pray is an unbeliever." It is from the Prophet himself that one who intentionally does not pray until the time for the prayer is over is an unbeliever."
Says Ibn Hazm, "It has come from 'Umar, 'Abdurahman ibn 'Auf, Mu'adh ibn Jabal, Abu Hurairah and other companions that anyone who skips one obligatory prayer until its time has finished becomes an apostate. We find no difference of opinion among them on this point." This was mentioned by al-Mundhiri in at-Targheeb wa atTarheeb. Then he comments, "A group of companions and those who came after them believed that an intentional decision to skip one prayer until its time is completely finished makes one an unbeliever. The people of this opinion incude 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, 'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas, Mu'adh ibn Jabal, Jabir ibn 'Abdullah and Abu ad-Darda'. Among the non-companions who shared this view were Ibn Hanbal, Ishaq ibn Rahwaih, 'Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak, an-Nakha'i, al-Hakim ibn 'Utaibah, Abu Ayyub as-Sakhtiyani, Abu Dawud at-Tayalisi, Abu Bakr ibn Abu Shaibah, Zuhair ibn Harb, and others.
Some hadith make it clear that such a person should be killed. For example:
Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "The ties of Islam and the principles of the religion are three, and whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever, and his blood becomes lawful: testifying that there is no god except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan." (Related by Abu Ya'la with a hassan chain.) Another narration states, "If anyone leaves one of them, by Allah he becomes an unbeliever and no voluntary deeds or recompense will be accepted from him, and his blood and wealth become lawful." This is a clear indication that such a person is to be killed.
Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)
Umm Salamah related that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "There will be rulers over you who will do good and evil things. Whoever hates these (latter) acts will be innocent of them. Whoever denies them will be safe, but (not) one who accepts and follows them." They asked, "Should we kill them?" He said, "Not if they pray." (Related by Muslim.) Therefore, he made it unlawful to kill even an unjust ruler who observes his prayers.
Abu Sa'eed reported that 'Ali, while he was in Yemen, sent the Prophet some gold, which he then divided among four people. A man said, "O Messenger of Allah, beware of Allah." The Prophet said, "Woe to you. Of all the people of the earth, am I not the most dutiful in being aware of Allah?" Khalid ibn al-Walid said, "O Messenger of Allah, shall I kill him?" He said, "Perhaps he is one of those who pray." Khalid said, "How many people say with their tongues what is not in their hearts?" The Prophet said, "I have not been ordered to look into the hearts of people, nor to rip open their bellies." (Abridged from al-Bukhari and Muslim.) In this hadith also, prayer is given as the reason for not killing a person. It is understood, therefore, that not praying would have resulted in the person's killing.
Even though the preceding hadith clearly rule that one who discards salah becomes an unbeliever and should be killed, many early and later scholars (excluding Abu Hanifah, Malik and ash-Shafi) believe that such people become evildoers who must repent. If such a person does not repent, he is to be killed, that being the prescribed punishment, according to Malik, ash-Shai'i and others. Abu Hanifah maintains that such a person is not to be killed, but must be given a minor punishment and confined until he prays. They say the hadith that calls such people unbelievers refer to those who deny the prayers, and so on. They say that any other interpretation is contradicted by other texts. For example, Allah says, "Lo! Allah does not pardon one who gives Him partners. He pardons all save whom He wills" (an-Nisa' 116). There is also a hadith related by Abu Hurairah and recorded by Ahmad and Muslim in which the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "Every prophet has a special supplication that is answered. Every prophet hastened to make his supplication, but I concealed mine and will use it for my nation on the Day of Resurrection. It will be granted--Allah willing--to whoever dies without associating any partners with Allah." Al-Bukhari also recorded that Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "The person who will be the happiest due to my intercession is the one who says, 'There is no god but Allah' sincerely from his heart."
Says ash-Shaukani, "The truth of the matter is that he becomes an unbeliever who is to be killed for his unbelief. The hadith authenticates that Islamic law calls one who does not pray an unbeliever. It has also put the performance as the barrier between a believer and an unbeliever. Abandoning prayer means he may be called an unbeliever. We need not concern ourselves with arguments presented by those of the opposing opinion. We can say to them: It is not impossible that some types of unbelievers may obtain forgiveness or may have a right to intercession, such as the unbelief of those who pray to ( our) qiblah. Nevertheless, the fact remains that they commit some sins which the Islamic law views as unbelief. To turn to the other narrow interpretations is just redundant."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith

Hadith 9.57

Narrated by Ikrima

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.(

kh.

Thank you for your explanation and for providing sahih hadith reference.

All I can say, though, is that my personal aamal are enough to keep me occupied. Let Allah judge the aamal of others.

Assalam alaikum

Farouq_taj

Female circumcision is entirely cultural. There was a huge debate on this subject, you may have heard about it last year, the conclusion they came up with was it was'nt obligatory for a woman to be circumcised. I can't remember what proofs they gave but here are the proofs that I found:

Fiqh-us-Sunnah

Fiqh 1.21a

Circumcision

This prevents dirt from getting on one's penis, and also makes it easy to keep it clean. For women, it involves cutting the outer portion of the clitoris. Abu Hurairah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "Ibrahim circumcised himself after he was eighty years old." (Related by al-Bukhari.) Many scholars say that it is obligatory.'ø The Shaf'iyyah maintain that it should be done on the seventh day. Says ash-Shaukani, "There is nothing that states explicitly its time or indicates that it is obligatory."

Sunan of Abu-Dawood

Hadith 5251

Narrated by Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith

Hadith 1.446 Narrated by Aisha

Barira came to seek my help regarding her manumission. I told her if you like I would pay your price to your masters but your Al-Wala would be for me." Her masters said, "If you like, you can pay what remains (of the price of her manumission), (Sufyan the sub-narrator once said), or if you like you can manumit her, but her (inheritance) Al-Wala would be for us. "When Allah's Apostle came, I spoke to him about it. He said, "Buy her and manumit her. No doubt Al-Wala is for the manumitted." Then Allah's Apostle stood on the pulpit (or Allah's Apostle ascended the pulpit as Sufyan once said), and said, "What about some people who impose conditions which are not present in Allah's Book (Laws)? Whoever imposes conditions which are not in Allah's Book (Laws), his conditions will be invalid even if he imposed them a hundred times."

End.

There are no dark sides to Islam.

Concerning man's role as a legislator. You gave an example of the seat belt. First of all I haven't asked anyone whether Islam allows cars to be accepted as a form of transport. Where seatbelts are concerned, as muslims we believe that everything comes from Allah i.e. predestination. A seatbelt is meant to prevent injury or possibly death. So do people think that by wearing a seatbelt they can change their fate or it is strong enough to withstand Allah (S.W.T.)'s Command. Astaghfirullah, whatever Allah wants will happen and whatever Allah doesn't want won't happen. So in Islam whether you wear a seatbelt or not it doesn't matter.

I have copied and pasted an article from www.khilafah.com on this subject.

The Limitations of Man as a Legislator

Islam is a way of life revealed from Allah (swt). Muslims, as humans, perform human actions. The solving of our problems are based on a divine text. The extraction of solutions from this text is not biased, nor prejudiced in any way. The one who performs this extraction, the mujtahid, does not pre-assign a problem as being solely ethical, economical or educational. Rather, he views the problem as being a human problem. A problem that is intertwined with all the complexities of human societal existence. In contrast to this is the Western way of life. Problems are not solved from a divine source. Human problems are solved for humans by humans. The human is limited in his knowledge, myopic in outlook and prone to self-preservation in judgements. It therefore follows that the system that he derives is riddled with disparity and contradiction.

Capital- the dominant influence in secular decision-making

When Europeans began to refer to man as the source of legislation, they discarded the shackles of Christianity. Thus secularism was born. Constitutions were framed, laws were passed and systems of ruling emerged. These novel systems placed wealth at their centre. Political edifices were always constructed within the amphitheatre of capital. Appropriately, these systems became known as Capitalist. This constant reference to ownership and wealth drew on a very basic instinct that all humans possess. That is, the desire to secure one’s own interests. When left unbridled, this instinct leads to greed, power-lust and exploitation. Rasul-Allah (saw) said, “If the son of Adam was given a valley full of gold he will always want a second. If he has two valleys full of gold he will always want a third.” (Bukhari)

The reality was that these systems were merely knee-jerk responses to the whims and desires of a greedy few. In the words of US President Jimmy Carter,

“The reason for the Constitution was to empower people of property over common people. Indeed, our definition of self government and freedom have become linked, if not equated, to the interests of the corporation.”
The theory of Capitalism is totally impracticable. William Beveridge’s ideas on welfare and social security were an attempt to compensate for abundant deficiencies within the Capitalist system. Indeed, welfare was an after-thought, an add-on, in the historical development of the British system. Purists would consider Beveridge to be a heretic. Today, issues are always discussed with an economical slant. This is regardless of whether the essence or implications of these issues are moral, social or ethical. The overcrowding of prisons, the availability of beds in hospitals and the poor state of education are always debated in relation to finance and funding. In Britain, performance related pay was a culture introduced into many realms during the 18 years of Tory government. The green-grocer mentality prompted the government to superimpose the economics of buying and selling to many spheres. Performance related pay scales were introduced into the health and police services. The architects of this policy assumed that the performance of a nurse or a policeman can be quantified in the same way as a green-grocer. Can the number of patients that die under a nurse’s care, or criminals that evade a police-man, ever be correlated with the number of melons sold in a week?
This economic skew has caused many Western analysts to lose track of all reality. This is seen with the West’s obsession with overpopulation. This obsession was born out of the erroneous conclusions of Thomas Malthus at the turn of the 19th century. He viewed population growth purely as an economist. His conclusions that population should be curbed by famines and natural disasters, were revamped in the 1970’s with the publication of Ehrlich’s, “The Population Bomb”. This book prompted three major conferences and the adoption of population control policies in many poor nations. There exists a common myth that incidents like the Ethiopian famine were some how related to overpopulation. Ethiopia is eight times the size of England and at the time had a population three quarters of that of England. Indeed Africa as a whole, the continent most closely associated with famine, is actually highly underpopulated.

Disparity and contradictions stemming from competing interests

The system in practice leads to disparity and contradictions. Experts are assigned to solve problems. Some of these are normal human problems. Others are problems that the system itself has generated. The result is that loop holes and get-out clauses abound. This is seen clearly in Western legal systems. The process of judiciary is far removed from the actuality of life. Law is derived, discussed and debated in ivory towers but enforced on the common people. Laws are seen as academic legal issues, common people are not required to understand them. They are required merely to live by them. Therefore, legal issues when exposed can often go against public opinion.

This was seen with the case of Private Lee Clegg. He was the British soldier convicted of shooting an Irish teenager in the back of the head. On appeal, the Law Lords further found him guilty. In fact, in total he was declared guilty by three courts. When the law was followed by the book, the evidence was stacked against him. Procedure and protocol dictated that he should have remained behind bars. However, the tabloid press managed to whip up enough emotion to get him released. He was not found innocent by the legal system, rather by the ‘Daily Mail’. A similar contradiction can be seen with Jack Straw’s commitment to keep Myra Hindley locked up for the rest of her life. The original sentencing judge stated that life meant “...a very long time”. In 1985, this was set at thirty years by the then Home Secratary Leon Britten. Now thirty-one years after the original sentencing, ‘life’ suddenly means ‘for life’. The right to appeal for parole for ‘lifers’ is enshrined within the British legal system. The sentence of ‘life’ meaning ‘for life’ contradicts British and European laws and conventions. The ‘Moors murders’ have remained an emotive issue solely due to the tabloid manipulation of the masses. Hindley’s deeds were repugnant, but it is the press that have sustained her infamy in the minds of the British people. Even three decades later, the press still titillate their readers with the gory details of the trial in a manner that has no relationship to the academia of the legal process.

Disparity and contradictions stemming from limited knowledge

Many issues have been painstakingly discussed by experts and lay people, voted on and ratified. Upon studying isolated technical situations it is easy to find examples of how the limitations of the human mind has caused problems. An example can be seen with thalidomide. Whole armies of experts from a wide variety of scientific, medical and legal fields had granted a marketing licence for this drug. Despite extensive research, it was only post-marketing that these experts concluded it caused horrendous congenital abnormalities. These same experts concluded that some of their methods and observations were flawed. This admirable acknowledgement of fallibility is common in isolated cases. Man has readily admitted his shortcomings in judging correctly in relatively ‘simple’ models. Yet, the Western ideology insists man can be competent in judging societal problems, that are vastly more complex.

In the realm of government the problems that humans have created for themselves are numerous. The US has a relatively young system. It was framed far away from the bitter racial and religious prejudices of Europe at that time. The ‘New World’ consisted of many peoples that had purposely fled from religious intolerance. The Americans had the opportunity to take a long hard look at the European democracies. They attempted to take the best from Europe and to think deeply about forging a utopia. The American constitution has been a paradigm and an inspiration for many nations that gained independence from colonialism. The American system, it may be said, was carefully planned and thought out by rational, intelligent, well intentioned lateral thinkers. Yet, we see the reality of America is that it is a complete mess.

Some of the main issues that were mulled and mused over to the greatest depth were enshrined in ‘The Bill of Rights’. The most famous of which was the First Amendment; freedom of religion, speech, press, protest and petition. For two centuries this has been quoted, used and abused in defence of many issues that even the average American considers damaging, for example, pornography and white supremacist material. When this is linked with the Second and Fourth Amendments, we see the chaos that these principles gave birth too. These being the right to bear arms and “the right to secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures”. The interpretation of these amendments led to the emergence of the “Branch-Davidian” sect in Wako, Texas. The whole ‘Wako Incident’ was the direct result of the very things that the founding fathers held to be so sacred. The US has always been the home of weirdo cults, crack-pot militias and right-wing lunatics.

Conclusions

Satisfactory solutions to human problems, such as crime, have been allusive to the West for all the above reasons. They have reached a point of complete desperation. Criminologists, psychologists, sociologists etc. rack their brains to come up with satisfactory solutions. For example, to combat crime in Britain, they have just extended a trial of electronic-tagging of criminals. However the success statistics have not yet been published. We should not be surprised if this gives a greater than 80% re-offending rate as was seen with safari holidays, softly-softly, short-sharp-shock and confronting the victims of crime and so on. None of the methods cooked up by humans can ever produce satisfactory solutions. This is because the root remains the same - that man is the legislator.

Islam is the only system that is immune from prejudice and bias stemming from man. Nor as a source is it at the mercy of man’s limited knowledge. This is the system that is from Allah (swt), our Creator. Allah (swt) is the One who created us with so many needs and desires, but He (swt) is the One without needs. Allah (swt) knows best our very nature. Nothing of creation escapes his knowledge. Allah designed us and therefore is the best designer of a system for us to live by. Surely His (swt) system is the only system for man to live by.

kh.

kh.

[This message has been edited by Mudassar (edited 09-03-98).]

Miss Yasmee,
This is an atempt to answer the questions you have asked :

"What, if any are the principles that guide your everyday behavior? "

The smaller decesions of daily existence are not a result of relegious dictation. There are ofcourse, moments of reflection, influenced more perhaps by upbringing than relegious law.

"What do you consider moral and immoral?"

Socrates answered that question for me :
" Any thing arising from Good Will is Morality."

" Are these rules set in stone, written down somewhere, or do you make them up as you go along?"

The only rule I wish to retain as permanent is compassion . The rest are subject to change with time and understanding.

Mr Mudassar,
I do thankyou Sir for those correct qoutations you have cited. I must say that execution upon disbeleif strikes me as harsh and uncalled for. Miss Yasmeen I would be intrested in your views regarding the subject of compulsion in relegion.
Resistance

Dear Friends,
Assalamualaikum and Khuda Hafiz.
My life has suddenly taken a very dramatic turn and I am going to be returning to Pakistan shortly. I want to thank you all for your caring and kindness, as well as for participating in this discussion.
May Allah guide us all towards the right path.
Fee Aman Allah!

Assalam O Alaikum Everybody

Yasemeen Behan, I wish u best of luck and may Allah shower His blessings on you.

Acha jee, aap log to meray peechay hath dho ker par gayay ho, hehehe, j/k,

Mudassar Bhai : When did I say "I don't know really, but" , Wat I meant was that to my thinking and to my knowledge Islam is this and do u have any objection in what I said, didn't I said the truth ??????

Muzna : I really don't know how to play with words like that, kia aap mujhay sikhaeengee, hehe, :), waisay jo baat mainey aap say kahee thee, I am still firm on that, there are some manners how u address islam and u talk about islam. I do agree no one can harm Islam just with words, true, but that is for a non Muslim, if a Muslim sister like u will say something wrong as a brother I have to at least advice u on that. Aap khud sochain, har cheez key adaab hotay hain, hotay hain ya nahin ??? isi tarah aap islam key baray main chahay mazak say kaheen lakin is tarah nahin bolsakteen. Baqee agar aap ko mera yeh kehna bura laga ho to bhai samagh kar maaf kardain.

"I have no issues with Islam but several with fundamentalism, fanaticism and extremist opinions. When Allah has clearly stated that He is merciful, kind and forgiving then surely we are in no position to judge one another"

First of all, Islam is Islam, Believe me I never understand the word fundamentalism, and extremists. If u think the one killing children and women in Algeria are extremists, then u r 101% wrong. Or do u call a Muslim an extremist, I mean who prays 5 times a day, who make the women in his family do hijab or the one who has beard, or the one who fights in the way of Allah when ever he can, do u call them extremists or fundamentalist. Allah O Akbar, Well I call them MUSLIMS.

My observation is that, the people who do not pray, who do not fast, who have nothing to do with islam other than they believe that its their religion, they have terms like extremists and fundamentalist. FOR GOD SAKE stop thinking with the brain of Kuffar, they are the one to introduce these terms. And ofcourse, no doubt Allah is merciful, kind and forgiving, to phir aisa kertay hain namazain, rozay, zakat sab chor daitay hain, Allah merciful hay maaf kerday ga, hmmm, Is that wat u think, hmmm, then better u read the part of Quran and sunnah in which the punishments for leaving these are mentioned.

Neways, I would like to advice all brothers and sisters to just take it easy aap log thora ghussay main ajatay hay, well I can feel from the type of language which is used here, J . Acha take care u all, Allah Hafiz

Jazakumullah Khair / Assalam O Alaikum.

Assalam alaikum

Resistance,

The people who are killed are everybody except Jews and Christians because of not living the Islamic way of life. We don't change our religion to suit people like the Christians and Jews have done. I'll get proof for this next time.

Whether we think its right or wrong doesn't really matter. We get our idea of rights and wrongs from religion.

Socrates forgot to tell you that good will is dependent on the correct criteria for right and wrong.

There is an ayah of the Qur'aan which states that there should be no compulsion in religion. I'll quote it properly next time.

Every human and Jinn has freedom of will and this is what makes us accountable for our actions. To be Muslim means to give up this free will and submit your will to the Will of Allah (S.W.T) and clearly many people cannot do this. The ideas of freedom and democracy have destroyed the idea of humility and we are now being told to be assertive making an individual more self-centered. Clearly the universe wasn't created to meet the needs of just one assertive individual.

kh.

Mr Mudassar,
How are you Sir? I wish to bring to your attention my complete objection to state sponsered morality. The idea that a muslim denouncing his faith be punished by death seems intellectually supressive. This law clearly apears to favour the hypocrite. An individual willing to acknowlegde his disbelief is obviously more honest than someone who hides it. State interference in our personal evolution of thought is most disturbing.
The role of goverment must remain confined to civic administration. Views and opinions do not fall under beaurucatic authority.
The verse regarding force in Islam is found in the Quran . It states :
" Let there be no compulsion in Relegion"
This line however simply forbids forceful conversion of non muslims to Islam.
A number of Hadith and some that you have correctly cited do show that a muslim rejecting Islam must suffer the punishment of Death.
Such narrow legislations are unacceptable in the function of a modern soceity.
Resistance

Alike for those who for TO-DAY Prepare
And those that after a TO-MORROW Stare,
A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries
"Fools! your Reward is niether Here nor There." [OK]

Assalam alaikum

Here are the proofs.

2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

The Quran says: God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just. (Quran, 60.8)

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city.
Islamic law also permits non-Muslim minonties to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves.
When the caliph Omar took Jerusalem from the Byzantines, he insisted on entering the city with only a small number of his companions. Proclaiming to the inhabitants that their lives and property were safe, and that their places of worship would never be taken from them, he asked the Christian patriarch Sophronius to accompany him on a visit to all the holy places.
The Patriarch invited him to pray in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, but he preferred to pray outside its gates, saying that if he accepted, later generations of Muslims might use his action as an excuse to turn it into a mosque.
According to Islam, man is not born in 'onginal sin'. He is God's vicegerent on earth. Every child is born with the fitra, an innate disposition towards virtue, knowledge, and beauty. Islam considers itself to be the 'primordial religion', din al-hanif, it seeks to return man to his original, true nature in which he is in harmony with creation, inspired to do good, and confirming the Oneness of God.

Resistance,

Alhumdulillah, How are you?

I believe that the laws on apostasy are correct and the basis of my rights and wrongs are based on Islam.

What is your basis of rights and wrongs?

Also you are assuming that all apostates acknowledge their disbelief.

kh.

Mr Mudassar,
I hope you receive this message in the best of health. Once again the information you have provided in your posting was intresting and historically correct. The conquest of Jeruselum under Omar is an inspiring event and sets an incomparible standard for later generations. Western Scholars reluctantly confirm the tolerant nature of muslims towards the minorities. Gibbon who has chronicled the crusades writes very highly of the great Muslim Empires.
Since your judgement takes root from Islamic law , I must say we are veiwing the issue from two different plains. I do not wish to accept goverment law under the divine light of perfection.
You asked me Sir, about my basis of right and wrong. If your question concerns legislation then I should say I beleive in Trial and Error. The mistakes made by previous civilisations, historical evolution of political thought towards freedom guide my opinions on goverment.
Since you hold the Islamic Law to be entirely correct, this is now a matter of faith. Hence a debate would be futile. You have however presented your opinion in a constructive and eloquent manner. It is now my intention to think seriously about what you have written.
Resistance