[quote]
Originally posted by secret_obsession:
may be the kinda women you know and hang around with want many lovers....but not all women.
[/quote]
Is anything wrong with Women wanting more than 1 man particularly when polygamous men are accpeted in Heaven? Why is it that polgamy a virtue only for men? why NOT women?
Simple question! I have got only weak answers! May be Islam is weak in this context!
To a moron, let me explain further.
The ‘physical’ and ‘biological’ analogy were presented to show that MEN and WOMEN are VERY VERY different, their minds, their thoughts, all are different, therefore it does not make sense to have SAME laws for both of them. I hope you get it this time.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
Hello Mr. Intelligent! I hope they taught you to read in your madrassah. If they did, please read my previous post about Physical and biological issues!
And, Akif Bhai:
I understand that Islam does not compel anybody to marry 4 women at a time. I fully understand that it is only optional, and all the guidelines involved.
My simple question (which remains unanswered) Why weren't women given such options (may be with different guidelines which Quran thinks will suit them?)
Is (or isn't) Quran Chauvinistic?
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited April 02, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
** Is anything wrong with Women wanting more than 1 man particularly when polygamous men are accpeted in Heaven? Why is it that polgamy a virtue only for men? why NOT women?
Simple question! I have got only weak answers! May be Islam is weak in this context!**
[/quote]
or may be someone is intellectually challenged.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
Ignored: kumarakn
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
Changez bhai:
Why turn your guns towards me in every thread, when I expose the limitations of your argument?
LOL
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
Don’t you read what I’ve said about your questions?
Take Your Best Shot At Me
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**And, Akif Bhai:
I understand that Islam does not compel anybody to marry 4 women at a time. I fully understand that it is only optional, and all the guidelines involved.
My simple question (which remains unanswered) Why weren't women given such options (may be with different guidelines which Quran thinks will suit them?)
Is (or isn't) Quran Chauvinistic?
**
[/quote]
Kumar bhai.....
The reason why women dont have these options is because of several factors.
One is the fact that a woman with multiple husbands will always have a question about the paternity of her children.
Second is the fact that women have always been in a majority in this world, compared to men. That is because of a variety of reasons, all of which are scientifically and religiously accurate.
One thing I should clarify before you go on. This permission allowed to men is not granted as an "added source of pleasure" for men, whereas women are deprived of it. No. Anyone who rushes into polygamy for this reason alone, is doing it for the wrong reason. It is allowed simply for very practical reasons, and those reasons should be studied before you make false assumptions about Islam.
Akif:
so anywhere in Quran, Does Quran talk about, encourage Monogamy?
kumarakn:
Akif has answered your question and provided a number of stipulations around which polygamy is permitted and answering why only for men and not women.
Polygamy is an exception, not the rule. Monogamy is encouraged througout the Qur'an. Even the verse that permits polygamy 4:3, provides such strict stipulations around it, that itself it is encouraging monogomy.
Read PakistaniAbroad's post for more. He's dissecting the verse.
Achtung
Its pretty simple.
Monogamy is the way of life by default. Hence, no extensive explanations or arguments have been given advocating it.
Polygamy is not the way of life. Hence extensive reasons and conditions have been given of the circumstances in which it is allowed.
If someone gives you a glass of water to drink, no explanation would be needed.
If someone gives you a glass of medicine to drink, they will give you explanations and reasons for it.
** Hinduism ** allows polygamy for a man, but ** not for women ** - isn’t that discriminatory.
I think what is ** REALLY DISCRIMINATORY ** is that Hinduism has this institution of Dev-Daasi ** (LEGAL FEMALE SEX SLAVES ) ** where a girl of a ** lower-caste ** serves as a ** SEX SLAVE ** for an upper caste Hindu man..
I mean, ** WHY do ONLY ** the Hindu ** GIRLS ** have to serve as sex-slaves for upper-caste Hindu men ?? ** WHY DON’T ** the Hindu ** MEN ** have to serve as ** sex-slaves for ** upper-caste Hindu ** WOMEN ** ???
** Hindu MEN can get sex slaves but NOT ** Hindu WOMEN ??? ** WHY ** ??? This is just so ** DISCRIMINATORY ** .. It is ridiculous, I can’t accept it.
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Kumarkn (and other Hindus), you often tell us, how u can change your religion with time. Now, you and other ** non-sexist Hindus must OPEN the doors for MALE-SEXUAL SLAVERY for the pleasure of ** upper-caste ** Hindu WOMEN **.
After all we are in the ** 21st Century ** , We ** CANNOT TOLERATE ** this kind of ** DISGUSTING DISCRIMINATION ** against Hindu women anymore.
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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frusty2.gif
** We all should rise up for the plight of such DEPRIVED Hindu WOMEN ** !!!
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Human Rights organizations and Amnesty International should support the introduction of male sexual slavery for the pleasure of Hindu women - because otherwise it is so sexist and biased. I feel for those Hindu women who do not get the pleasure of male sexual slavery..
Also, why does the Hindu religion demand ** Sati ** (the burning alive of Hindu widows) ** ONLY ** for widowed Hindu ** WOMEN ** ?? Why not Hindu ** MEN too ** who lose their wives ??? It is just soo **discriminatory. **
P.S - ** DON’T ** tell me that female sexual slavery is not existent anymore. It ** exists ** in areas like Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh.
[This message has been edited by Indian_Muslim (edited April 02, 2002).]
indian muslim there is no codifiaction of
rleigious laws in hinduism. if it unfair it can be changed by civil laws made by humans
through legislation.brahmins are not suppose to go in to other professions except priesthood . if they follow the rule they cant make a livilihood.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
there is no codifiaction of
rleigious laws in hinduism. if it unfair it can be changed by civil laws made by humans
through legislation.
[/quote]
That's what I'm asking - that Hindus should permit male sexual slavery for the pleasure of upper caste Hindu women.
Or else, it is very sexist, discriminatory, biased and very ** depriving ** for the Hindu women.
there is law agianst vice but who enforces?
anybody follow trafic laws? whatever you can get in india you can get it in pakistan starting from booze.
** Indian_Muslim: **
Please, Hinduism arguments can be done in another thread. This thread is about polygamy in Islam. I will be glad to discuss/contribute there.
** Akif: **
So from your own words, Islam never talks about Monogamy. But Islam approves Polygamy for Men.
And you also say, the world should assume that Polygamy is discouraged except when some specific conditions are met and Monogamy is encouraged?
Am I missing something or is this the most baseless argument one can make.
Really, Does Islam encourage/recommend monogamy at any time? Or does it only suggest polyfgamy? (and that too only for men)
** Achtung: **
Akif and others only say it is because men and women are not physically or biologically equal that Islam permits polygamy only for men (and they eagerly add that it is accepted only under certain circumstances)
Some others made fun of me, clearly indicating their inability to contest the weakness in Islam.
My main question (which began this whole thread) is still un answered!
Since marriage is beyond mere physical capabilities/desires/strengths or bilological necessity,
**
[li] Isn't permitting polygamy only for men chauvinistic? [/li]
My newer question is:
[li] Does Islam talk/encourage about Monogamy? If it doesn't, then how can I understand that it recommends monogamy and NOT polygamy?[/li]**
Questions are open to everybody!
Last but not the least, Achtung, I surely will visit the other thread and attempt to understand the verse being discussed better.
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited April 02, 2002).]
kumarkan monogamy is practised widely
regardless of religen because it avoids lot of conflicts.
kumarakn:
First of all Islam doesn't preach equality of the sexes. It preaches equity.
Polygamy is permitted for males (as others have already mentioned) ** due to issues of lineage ** . A woman with multiple husbands may not know who the husband of her child is. The arguement against this is today paternity tests rule this problem out. This is a moot point though, because polygamy, even for men is only permitted in exceptional cases and the rule of the Quran is final.
In Islam polygamy is neither encouraged or required, it is permitted . What Islam did is regulate and restrict it. Hammudah Abd al Ati, (The Family Structure in Islam, American Trust Publications, Maryland, 1977, page 119) writes, ** "the status of polygamy in Islam is no more and no less than that of a permissible act. And, like any other act lawful in principle, it becomes forbidden if it involves unlawful things or leads to unlawful consequences such as injustice." **
All parties have options. A husband can remain monogamous if he wishes and ** a wife can set conditions to require a monogamous marriage, which is binding on the husband. ** The wife can seek divorce if the husband attempts to enter into another marriage.
There are two verses in the Qur'an dealing with polygamy (to the best of my knowledge):
"And if you fear that you will not act justly towards the orphans, marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear that you will not be equitable, then only one , or what your right hands own; so it is likelier that you will not be partial (or become destitute)." (4:3)
" You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, even so you be eager. Yet, do not be altogether partial so that you leave her (i.e., the wife discriminated against) as it were suspended. If you set things right, and are God-minded (or God fearing), God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." (4:129)
**
The second verse severely restricts the practice of polygamy. ** It is extremely difficult to be equitable to your wives (as even the Qur'an mentions: "You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, even so you be eager"). ** Therefore it is in the interest of most Muslims to remain monogamous (and most do). Polygamy is an exception. ** The above verse (4:3) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud (where many were martyred). This indicates (to most scholars) that:
"...the intent of its [polygamy] continued permissibility, at least in part, was to deal with individual and collective contingencies that may arise from time to time (e. g., ** imbalances between the number of males and females, created by war ** ). This provides a moral, practical and humane solution to the problems of widows and orphans, who would otherwise surely be more vulnerable in the absence of a husband and father figure in terms of economics, companionship, proper child rearing and other needs." (Jamal Badawi)
Where it is practiced today, polygamy is more than often abused. Its difficult to find a case where polygamy is practiced correctly. [originally posted by me in August 1999]
Achtung
Kumar
Every time the topic of polygamy (man marrying multiple women) in Islam is discussed, both the Anti-Islamics claim that Islam allows men to marry multiple wives under any conditions by simply presenting the Noble Verse (4:3) from the Noble Quran in their argument. Anti-Islamics take this even further and try to attack Islam as an unjust religion to women, and use the Hard-liners life style as a proof for what they call "The failure of the Islamic social system."
This is where I believe Kumar comes into the equation.
Noble Verse (4:3) was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Madina after he migrated to it from Mecca and established an Islamic state there right after the battle of Uhud in which the Muslims not only had lost badly against the Pagans, but also suffered a dramatic decrease in the number of Muslim men. The Muslim men before that battle were approximately 700. They became only 400 after the battle. This loss had left so many Muslim women (1) Widows, and (2) Not able to get married if they were single.
These continuous battles against the Muslims were very costly in terms of Muslim men's lives. The women had to be taken care of one way or another. For this reason, Allah Almighty had revealed the Noble Verse 4:3 to Muhammad peace be upon him to solve the social problems that the Muslims were facing. That is why at the very beginning of the Noble Verse 4:3 we see Allah Almighty setting a conditional clause for Orphans "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans...(4:3)." This Noble Verse came down for the purpose of protecting the Orphans and to increase the number of the Muslims by allowing the men to marry multiple wives (preferably from the grown Orphans at that time), up to four wives only. The purpose was absolutely not for man's sexual pleasure nor privilege, nor it was to support man's personal ego. It was revealed to solve a major social problem to prevent major sins such as illegal sex and prostitution.
Allah Almighty ordered us to take care of the Orphans in our Islamic society (Noble Verses 2:177, 2:215, 2:220 and much more). He then commands us that if we fear that we will not be able to provide enough support for the too much Orphans in our society (especially after the battle of Uhud where more than half of the Muslim men were lost), then marry up to four of them to provide a social balance between men and women. But if a person feels that he can't handle multiple women, then one is just fine.
That's really all there is to it.
In addition to Islam, Judaism and Christianity encourage Polygamy!
In Judaism, Mishnah Sanhedrin 2,4 permits the king to have 18 wives; it is not expressively stated how many wives an ordinary man could have, but there are references to four wives (eg. Ketuboth 10,5) and five wives (Ketuboth 3,7). The Qumran community as revealed by the Dead Sea Scrolls forbids polygamy except for the king.
Christianity:
In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.
In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
There are a lot more verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy, but I think that the above are sufficient enough to prove my point.
The Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament does allow polygamy. Jesus peace be upon him never prohibited polygamy. Jesus lived for 33 years of his life on earth among a nation who practiced polygamy. He never even once talked about it !.
So it will be only befitting for Kumar to comment on these 2 Faiths as well as his own!!!!
We await.
Kumar
And a special present for you just when you thought it was all over!!!
According to Hindu scriptures, a Hindu marriage is indissolvable in life. Still polygamy was rampantly practised in ancient Hindu society. An address by Bhishma to King Yudhishthira in the Mahabharata, succinctly endorses this fact: "A Brahmana can take three wives. A Kshatriya can take two wives. As regards the Vaishya, he should take a wife from only his own order. The children born of these wives should be regarded as equal." (Anusasana Parva, Section XLIV).
Like I have stated before, 'always make sure your own back yard is in pristine condition, before criticizing your neighbours'!!!
See Ya, Cuz I Wouldn't Wanna Be Ya!