Why do you guys waste your time answering such stupid questions? Dont you guys have anything constructive to talk about? Man !!!
My dear Ace,
If you feel that you can ‘force’ the muslims into a corner where they will not be able to explain their beliefs, you’re wrong. I for one dont feel compulsed to explain my belief to you.<<
I don’t want you to explain ‘beliefs’ because you can’t. They are beliefs. But beliefs could be idiotic. So if one feels idolatory is idiotic you can argue that beleiving that all Humanity has just one father is equally idiotic.
Also I observe that you said, you want to respect one and all, but I am an exception.
I am charmed but why? Does the truth hurt?
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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
You’re not a learner my friend, you’re just an idiot.<<
My friend there are few things more idiotic than relgious beliefs.
The difference is that as a Hindu I can say that and get away with it. I don’t have to put up with idiotic beliefs if I don’t want to. Charming isn’t it?
Zalim:
why don't you produce an ayat from Quran which says that Adam was not the first one?
Flamezz has done great job to show that Adam (AH) was created from sand, if Adam was not first why would Allah SWT create Adam from sand and then ask all angels, iblis to bow to him? if there were any men before Adam I'm sure there would've been a dialogue about that.
Andhra, this issue has also been raised about zillion times (incest). Other brother has explained to you already that at different times a different Sharia was sent down to people. For example, for one nation God had forbidden fishing on Saturdays, but not anymore.... this is just one example to show that laws changed.
And now in Quran Allah SWT has said that Islam is now complete and shall remain complete until doomsday.
'incest' was permitted for a time so humanity could expand, and when enough population was reached, it was stopped, does that get into your head?
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
Man, Andhra… I had given you WHOLE 3 DAYS.. I knew your hindu brain wouldn’t just put 2 and 2 together..that’s why I gave you 3 days to try to think. ** Now look at your answers - Had you taken some time to think over them, you might have said something less stupid.**
Anyways, here we go:
** Ok, so are you trying to convince me that the male reproductive organ is actually a god? !!!
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** Ok, that’s a classic one… I mean , think of it that way, everything is a god then because almost everything serves some purpose or the other.. ** You know what sounds really scary ?? On the day of Judgement, when each disbelieving nation will be asked to call their gods to help them, WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE FOR THE PENIS-WORSHIPPERS? **
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Well, the Qur’an for sure doesn’t mention those details (that hindus find so interesting, because of their religious disposition) . **However, the Qur’an and Hadeeth explicitly prohibit incest. ** I know for a fact that if a person commits incest by rape, he is to be killed by Islamic law.
I’m not sure if the Qur’an or Hadeeth mention if it was allowed during the time of Hadrat Adam (a.s) - but it’s not far-fetched to think that it may have been allowed. **For example, the Jewish and Christian scriptures put NO LIMIT TO POLYGAMY - infact, they are full of description of the many wives of the biblical characters. BUT QUR’AN PUT A LIMIT TO POLYGAMY, PUT CERTAIN CONDITIONS FOR POLYGAMY AND PUT THE LIMIT TO 4 WIVES MAXIMUM. However, the Bible has no limits on the number of wives a person can have. **
So, you see there were different laws for different nations. ** For example, following the bible today is impossible - at one point the bible says that a woman who doesn’t cover her head, SHOULD SHAVE HER HEAD, but the Qur’an doesn’t say anything like that. **
Based on that analogy, ** it is not far-fetched to think that the laws during the time of Hadhrat Adam (a.s) would have been different.
However, why don’t you answer me that doesn’t hinduism believe that Brahma was the first man on earth? So what does Hinduism say about that? **
**
** Well, I was only giving you a taste of your own medicine. Isn’t it the hallmark of hindus, that they ask one question, and when they get a satisfactory and convincing response, they raise some other point, and then some other, and after they get convincing and wholesome answers to all of them, THEY THEN ASK THE SAME QUESTIONS ON SOME OTHER MUSLIM MESSAGEBOARD? ** Now, you have the nerve to question me for that?
**
Answered above.
**
No Context or interpretation. It is pretty straightforward. It’s another story if you have a disease in your heart.
**
** Man Andhra !!! You know the word “Aadmi” that you use in your Hindi ?? Well, guess what, “Aadmi” is in its origin an Arabic-Persian word and it roughly means “Adam-like” . * “AADAM” SE “AADMI”. * Unconsciously, a lot of hindus seem to affirm the status of Hadrat Adam (a.s) !! **
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** So I again give you 3 days Andhra. Now, show us that you too can understand simple, straight-forward logic and make us proud of you. **
[This message has been edited by Indian_Muslim (edited March 13, 2002).]
Andhra
its said and obviously not verified that eve had two(2) uterus(es).if u think abt it u have ur answer n if common sense were allowed to rule it seems pretty logical for allah or any supreme n mighty power to have thought of the moral objections raised by mortals.
Dear Indian_Muslim, I liked your posting. Impressive Man
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
Play your game - Guess my motto
hehehehe… kya karuN, mizaaj zara jazbaati hai na !!!
Thanks bro
Ibrahim says : Jazak Allahu Khair Indian Muslim for your presence and response to this pathetic hindu hate mongers.
Ibrahim says: Coming to this notion that Hinduism does not teach that mankind was created form one single parents is indeed due to ignorance of Hinduism by those who claim they are hindus, worst still those who claim they are Brahmins.
** For the Hindu sacred scriptures reveals the very same thing that had been revealed in the Bible and Qur’an but as usual with its corrupted additions, which is the reason for its abrogation .**
Let us read
Satapatha Brahmana 11:1:6:1-2.
“Verily, in the beginning this (universe) was water, nothing but a sea of water. The waters desired, ‘How can we be reproduced?’ They toiled and became heated (with fervid devotion), when they were becoming heated, a golden egg was produced. The year, indeed, was not then in existence: this golden egg floated about for as long as the space of a year.** In a year’s time a man, this Prajapati, was produced therefrom;** and hence a woman, a cow, or a mare brings forth within the space of a year; for Prajapati was born in a year. He broke open this golden egg. There was then, indeed, no resting-place: only this golden egg, bearing him, floated about for as long as the space of a year.” –
Ibrahim says thus in this passage we can see the first creation, was just a single man
Now lets see what happened to this man, so we need to refer to another passage
Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 1:4:2-6.
** “That first being (Prajapati) became afraid; therefore one becomes afraid when one is alone. ** Then he thought to himself: ‘Of what should I be afraid, when there is no one but me?’ So his fear left him, for what was he going to be afraid of? One is, after all, afraid of another. He found no pleasure at all; so one finds no pleasure when one is alone. ** He wanted to have a companion. Now he was as large as a man and a woman in close embrace. So he split his body into two, giving rise to husband (pati) and wife (patni). … He (Prajapati) copulated with her, and from their union human beings were born.** She then thought to herself: ‘After begetting me from his own body, how could he copulate with me? I know – I’ll hide myself.’ So she became a cow. But he became a bull and copulated with her. From their union cattle were born. Then she became a mare, and he a stallion; she became a female donkey, and he, a male donkey. And again he copulated with her, and from their union one-hoofed animals were born. Then she became a female goat, and he, a male goat; she became an ewe, and he, a ram. And again he copulated with her, and from their union goats and sheep were born. In this way he created every male and female pair that exists, down to the very ants. … Then he churned like this and, using his hands, produced fire from his mouth as from a vagina. ** As a result the inner sides of both these – the hands and the mouth – are without hair, for the inside of the vagina is without hair.”** –
Ibrahim says: hence according to this passage, the man was split into two and a women and man came into the picture and from them twine sprang all of mankind.
Now this what this hindu in his ignorance is denying and not realizing that his very own scriptures is identical to what the Christians and Jew and Muslims believe in.
Now as I said earlier hindu scriptures can have a lot of lunatic additions and in the above passage we can note how the animal and insects got created 9 truly funny and laughable but believed by hindus) and how the proof for its veracity can be ascertained by looking at your ???
Thus how the hindus understood creation of mankind in ancient times and how Muslims understand creation of mankind as revealed in the final testament ( Qur’an) are one and the same but ignorant hindus in the present have to be excused for these are plain ignorant souls who have lost their conscience.
Muslims have to pity them even though they are bent on annoying and harming others in their ignorance.
Now coming to incest, lets note what their gods were up to.
– Siva Purana, Jnanasamhita 49:65-80.
** “Brahma desired Sarasvati and went to her, asking her to stay with him. She, being his daughter, was furious at this and said, ‘Your mouth speaks inauspiciously and so you will always speak in a contrary way.’ From that day, Brahma’s fifth head always spoke evilly and coarsely.** Therefore one day when Siva was wandering about with Parvati and came to see Brahma, Brahma’s four heads praised Siva but the fifth made an evil sound. Siva, displeased with the fifth head, cut it off. The skull remained stuck fast to Siva’s hand, and though he was capable of burning it up, Siva wandered the earth with it for the sake of all people, until he came to Benares.”
Another version:
– Skanda Purana 3:40:1-59.
** “Brahma desired his daughter and took the form of a stag to pursue her as a doe. The Brahmins called him to shame, and Rudra shot him with an arrow. The deer’s head came away from Brahma’s body and became a constellation in the sky.** But then Gayatri and Sarasvati [the wives of Brahma] had no husband. They performed tapas for Siva, and he agreed to revive their husband, giving Brahma the four heads of Nandin and others of his hosts. Brahma arose and praised Siva.”
More of Lord Brahma’s (Prajapati’s) incest:
Satapatha Brahmana 1:7:4:1-7.
** “Prajapati desired his daughter and made love to her. This was a sin in the eyes of the gods, who said to the god who rules over beasts [Pasupati, Rudra], ‘He commits a sin, acting in this way towards his own daughter, our sister. ** Pierce him.’ Rudra took aim and pierced him. Half his seed fell to the ground. The gods cured Prajapati and cut out Rudra’s dart, for Prajapati is the sacrifice. To utilize [the seed], the gods said, ‘Take care that this may not be lost, but that it may be less than the oblation.’ They gave it to Bhaga to eat, but it burnt his eyes and he became blind. Then they gave it to Pusan to eat, but it knocked out his teeth. At last they gave it to Savitr [the sun] and it did not injure him, for he appeased it.” –
Ibrahim says: this is why in Hinduism Brahma is not worshiped even though he is head of the hindu trinity.
But did Brahma really sleep with his sister?
** The answer and correction for this misconception is found in the bible **
genesis 12:
-
Then Abram set out and continued toward the Negev.
-
Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe.
-
As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are.
-
** When the Egyptians see you, they will say, `This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me but will let you live. **
-
** Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you." **
Ibrahim says: hence Abram (Brahma in Hinduism ) asked Saria (Saraswati in Hinduism) to lie in order to save himself and his family.)
Abram again had to lie in a second instance
Genesis 20: 2. and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
When finally he got exposed Abram revealed the truth as to who sarai really was
Genisis 20: 11. Abraham replied, "I said to myself, `There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.’
- Besides, ** she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother;** and she became my wife.
Ibrahim says: In one way, he NEVER did lie, for sarai was his sister from a different mother but having the same father.
This events got twisted in Hinduism and they ended up believing that Abram (Brahma ) committed incest.
Thus the correction for misconceptions found in the Hindu scriptures can be clarified by the use of the bible and the correction for the misconceptions found in the bible can be clarified by the use of the Qur’an.
Regards
Ibrahim
** Understanding is forever unattainable but it is the only quest worthy of serious attention **
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited March 13, 2002).]
Ibrahim,
Please provide the URL from which you picked up the referances to the puranas.
[quote]
Originally posted by sundaram: Ibrahim, Please provide the URL from which you picked up the referances to the puranas.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: I don't pick up puranas or scriptures from web sites, to give you URL, but you will be able to find the very verses I quote using your search engine, where ** I myself have given it to a number of web site owners to host. **
As for the translations and their authenticity they are guaranteed by hindu Sanskrit scholars. If you like to challenge any of the quotes , please try, I have yet to come across any hindu scholar so far, who was able to discount them in the many years I have had discussions with hindus on the net in their own forums about this verses.
If you do not know what puranas are then ask and I will help you.
You can buy some of them on the streets of India with missing passages since no hindu in his right mind will publish some of them.
Or try amazon .com if you are abroad to buy hard copies , still a number i have come across have missing passages and are incomplete prints.
Hindu webs sites will host some passages of the puranas only as you know they can reveal many things that are rather silly, so I guess they avoid many passages but you may find some in sanskrit texts only.
** Anyway many of the quotes I have given are actually part of the veda and Upanishad, so tell me which puranas you are having problem with?? **
Ibrahim,
Thanks for popping up again with a bunch of crap without giving references.
I see you are talking about Prajapati or ‘Hiranya Garbha’, Golden egg and all that.
Get this clear. Prajapati was a divine personality. Also there seem to be more than one version of creation in Hinduism, to be expected in the Religion.
Here goes.
Unlike YOU I am giving references. Please make a note of that.
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http://www.xensei.com/users/Angel/Articles/Hindu1.html
HINDUISM’S VIEW OF WORLD’S CREATION (VEDAS – UPANISADS)
“In the beginning this world was simply what is non-existing; and what is existing was that. It then developed and formed into an egg. It lay there for a full year and then it hatched, splitting in two, one half becoming silver and the other half gold. The silver half is this earth, while the golden half is the sky. The outer membrane is the mountains, the inner membrane, the clouds and the mist; the veins, the rivers; and the amniotic fluid, the ocean. Now, the hatchling that was born was the sun up there. And as it was being born, cries of joy and loud cheers rose up in celebration, as did all beings and all desires. Therefore, every time the sun rises and every time it returns, cries of joy and loud cheers rise up in celebration, as do all beings and all their hopes. When someone knows this and venerates brahman as the sun, he can certainly expect that the pleasing sound of cheering will reach his ears and delight him.” – Chandogya Upanisad 3:19:1-4.
[Index]
HINDUISM’S VIEW OF HOW CREATURES WERE CREATED (VEDAS – UPANISADS)
“That first being (Prajapati) became afraid; therefore one becomes afraid when one is alone. Then he thought to himself: ‘Of what should I be afraid, when there is no one but me?’ So his fear left him, for what was he going to be afraid of? One is, after all, afraid of another. He found no pleasure at all; so one finds no pleasure when one is alone. He wanted to have a companion. Now he was as large as a man and a woman in close embrace. So he split his body into two, giving rise to husband (pati) and wife (patni)… He (Prajapati) copulated with her, and from their union human beings were born. She then thought to herself: ‘After begetting me from his own body, how could he copulate with me? I know – I’ll hide myself.’ So she became a cow. But he became a bull and copulated with her. From their union cattle were born. Then she became a mare, and he a stallion; she became a female donkey, and he, a male donkey. And again he copulated with her, and from their union one-hoofed animals were born. Then she became a female goat, and he, a male goat; she became an ewe, and he, a ram. And again he copulated with her, and from their union goats and sheep were born. In this way he created every male and female pair that exists, down to the very ants. … Then he churned like this and, using his hands, produced fire from his mouth as from a vagina. As a result the inner sides of both these – the hands and the mouth – are without hair, for the inside of the vagina is without hair.” – Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 1:4:2-6.
[Index]
HINDUISM’S VIEW OF CREATION (VEDAS – SATAPATHA BRAHMANA)
In the beginning this universe was just water…and then an egg hatched:“Verily, in the beginning this (universe) was water, nothing but a sea of water. The waters desired, ‘How can we be reproduced?’ They toiled and became heated (with fervid devotion), when they were becoming heated, a golden egg was produced. The year, indeed, was not then in existence: this olden egg floated about for as long as the space of a year. In a year’s time a man, this Prajapati, was produced therefrom; and hence a woman, a cow, or a mare brings forth within the space of a year; for Prajapati was born in a year. He broke open this golden egg. There was then, indeed, no resting-place: only this golden egg, bearing him, floated about for as long as the space of a year.” – Satapatha Brahmana 11:1:6:1
By the way the whole ‘Prajapati’ thing is only one aspect of HInduism and we are not bound by it ofcourse.
An alternative and very popular view of creation is from Rig Veda, the ‘Nasadiya Sukta’. It tries to explain creation.
http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/nasadiya.htm
There was neither non-existence nor existence then. There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond. What stirred? Where? In whose protection? Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then. There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day. That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse. Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning, with no distinguishing sign, all this was water. The life force that was covered with emptiness, that one arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that one in the beginning, that was the first seed of mind. Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across. Was there below? Was there above? There were seed-placers, there were powers. There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows? Who will here proclaim it? Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation? The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe. Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen - perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not - the one who looks down on it, in the highest heaven, only he knows - or perhaps he does not know.
Now I understand all this may be a bit too sophisticated if you believe God created just one man from Middle East who gave raise to 3 billion people and more
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But in your spare time, you can do further research and educate yourself.
And finally, this is to both Ibrahim and Indian_Muslim, if you want to discuss Hinduism open a different thread.
Let’s accept for the sake of argument that HInduism is evil and stupid.
That still doesn’t explain why Muslims and Christians merrily go along with Adam’s Kid’s incest!!
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And criticise Hinduism alleging the same thing!!. Hypocricy!!
Can you folks stop being ignorant of the rules?
Cut out the insults or this thread will be removed.
Get it?
Good.
[quote]
Originally posted by Zalim:
Quran – the Muslims only pure and unspoiled tool, nowhere says that Adam was the first man. Yet he was the first Prophet, and a Prophet is always sent to a nation, if he was the first, than to whom he was sent?
[/quote]
Have you really read the whole Qur'an?
I suggest you look up the index in a translation for Adam. You will come up with many verses clearly stating that Adam (alaihe salam) was the first creation.
If you do not have access to such a Qur'an, I recommend you go to a site (www.islamicity.com is an example). They have the Qur'an in their database. Look up the word there.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by Zalim:
**dear FLAMZZ, just one verse, where it says ADAM WAS THE FIRST MAN ON EARTH.
I will appreciate that**
[/quote]
**
[quote]
'Inna sharr ad dawaabb inda 'allaah as. S.umm al bukm 'allaziina laa ya qiluun**
[/quote]
Al-Anfal verse 22.
Translation in English
For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not.
I am surprised that the quotations supplied by the brother are so clear, yet you do not understand
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Ibrahim says: Andhra dear, can you show me where I have made quotes without references???
IF you cannot and IF you have little senses to apologize I will still excuse you since you are a hindu and we need to treat you differently for obvious reasons.
Ibrahim says : andhra dear, do you have brains to think??? I am serious, for I know all human beings were given a brain but as always there are those who do not know how to use them, so I need to ask you Again???
See ** you also quoted the very same verse I quoted earlier **
Which reads:—
** “That first being (Prajapati)** became afraid; therefore one becomes afraid when one is alone. Then he thought to himself: ‘Of what should I be afraid, when there is no one but me?’ So his fear left him, for what was he going to be afraid of? One is, after all, afraid of another. He found no pleasure at all; so one finds no pleasure when one is alone. He wanted to have a companion. Now he was as large as a man and a woman in close embrace. So he split his body into two, giving rise to husband (pati) and wife (patni)… ** He (Prajapati) copulated with her, and from their union human beings were born.** She then thought to herself: ‘After begetting me from his own body, how could he copulate with me? I know – I’ll hide myself.’ So she became a cow. But he became a bull and copulated with her. From their union cattle were born. Then she became a mare, and he a stallion; she became a female donkey, and he, a male donkey. And again he copulated with her, and from their union one-hoofed animals were born. Then she became a female goat, and he, a male goat; she became an ewe, and he, a ram. And again he copulated with her, and from their union goats and sheep were born. In this way he created every male and female pair that exists, down to the very ants. … Then he churned like this and, using his hands, produced fire from his mouth as from a vagina. As a result the inner sides of both these – the hands and the mouth – are without hair, for the inside of the vagina is without hair.” – Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 1:4:2-6.
Ibrahim says: Now do you understand what from their union human beings were born???
NOW try seeking help, IF your brains does not compute this
First there is Parajapati (Pati / Manu/ Adam are all other names for this creation) then from him is created his wife (Patni/ Eve) and from them twine comes all of human kind.
Now If you will tell me, that their children did not marry each other , where did you come from???
I know this is too much to ask of you, but I think, they may be others you know who can help you to THINK, so get help.
Regards
Ibrahim
Well I do’nt know much but know enough that
“shia muslims Belief is that incest was never allowed even at the time of Adam And Eve(ra)”
As God never makes it basic rules to be changed with Time.
When both A&E procured and have offspring,God sent some Hoor’s from heaven for further off spring from A&E’s offspring!!
Take it easy
Dear Zalim, please even when exagerrat6ing the figures dont do it to the extent that it becomes hauntigly odd.
The age of earthnis only 4.6 billion years. First human being appeared around only 200,000 years ago.
[quote]
Originally posted by mm10:
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
49: 12 ** O ye who believe! avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin:** and spy not on each other nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay ye would abhor it...but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-Returning Most Merciful.
13 ** O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). ** Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Ibrahim says: NEVER conjecture in religious matters when clear verses have been given.
ibrahim let us have unemotional and unbiased
view of adam and eve
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_999000/999030.stm
i applogize, I mean to say 11 million years old human civilization](http://www.hri.org/Macedonian-Heritage/Museums/Anthropological_and_Nat_History/Anthrvpologiko_Petralona.html).. instead of billion. my mistake
but still the question remains the same, Quran doesnt claim Adam to be the First Human… the actual words in Quran are “nafs-e-wahayda” which mean single cell not single person.. moreover as I said before if he was the Prophet than to whom he was sent if was the first man? there must be some nation for a messenger to be sent.
Yes he was the First Prophet and all the mankind is his spiritual children as pointed out in Quran “ya bahi aadama”(O! Children of Adam)
this spiritual sense is the same as for example Holy Prophet’s(sa) wives were called ummul momayneen (mother of all the righteous people)
i think its time to review the teachings, indeed the Quran is the book without any contadictions.
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 15, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 15, 2002).]