if a women is Free...

Re: if a women is Free...

ethically, raising children the way parents want does not equate to influencing people's choice through pervasive media trends.

Re: if a women is Free...

Adding on to your point.
In islam EVERYONE should be respected whether naked or in a niqab. Human dignity is the SAME. Your may have your own personal preferences or religious preferences but that shouldn't cloud your treatment of others . Personally i don't agree in baring to much but have muslim female AND male friends who do but never mention it to them as they are fully aware of the consequences of their actions and it is something between them and Allah not involving me so why should i.

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I completely agree with you unfortunately the world is turning to become more and more like that even the prophets warned us that being non-religious will give you benefits whilst being religious won't. Inshallah Allah will reward all muslims who have suffered during this time. It is why when the Sahaba asked the Prophet Mohammed if they were the closest to him he said no that the muslims in the future will be closer as they would have endured a harder time to follow their religion. So its not all bad just remember to stick to your religion because thats all that matters once we die.

Re: if a women is Free...

All I'm pointing out is that the same, i.e. not really a free choice, can be said about anybody, making that argument irrelevant.

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Agree..

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Treat others as you'd wish to be treated yourself.. It's a bit hypocritical to say 'respect my choice to wear hijab' then sit there + make demeaning comments about girls who don't cover..

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happens all the time. its strange why many people here think its only the hijab which is criticised. how many times have we heard people make comments about a girl wearing something skimpy or revealing? even at desi events, if a womans saree blouse shows her bellybutton, or if the neck is low, or even too much back is showing, or if someones dress is too short, thats all some people talk about! lets be real here and stop having such double standards. i have heard much more negative things about women dressing 'immodestly' than the other way around.

Re: if a women is Free...

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Women are free to cover. Whether or not their choice to cover up is understood and approved of is another matter. However, if one is comfortable and feels that they have made the right decision for themselves by wearing hijab/niqab/abaya/burqa/whatever, then other people's opinions are of no consequence.

If what everyone is asking about is societal approval of covering up, why is that even necessary? Does it really matter what other people think of YOUR PERSONAL choice? Yes, some people are narrow minded enough to think that women who cover up are all poor oppressed creatures or that women who do not cover up are all tarts but do their opinions really matter? As long as they do not interfere with your choice to cover (or not), their opinions are insignificant and have no bearing on your life.

As a society we are quite diverse and frankly, it is not necessary that everyone approve of everything.

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VERY well said!

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You do nt wana cover, it is ur choice. If u wana cover, it is upto u. Simple. But hijaab galz are respected everywhere, what i have seen. To me , they are far better than others....it is my opinion... .

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Not all women who cover have good morals. You cannot judge by the simply fact that they cover. They could cover and still engage in bad behaviour. I went to high school with girls would would leave their house covered and wearing hijab and change as soon as they got to school (I'm sure you can guess the type of clothes they changed into). These same girls would also ditch class sometimes to hang out with guys. Just saying.. :D

What makes a person's character better is their actions.

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you are right.. Let me put it this way, majority of girls who wear hijaab are far better than others and people hold them in high regands....

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Then no choice in the world can be a free choice, right? Ok, what is point of discussion at all, when we know no choice is a free choice?
However, we can see which choice is comming from ethics.

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You're right, the problem is when people interfere. I've seen such incidents as have friends of mine whose wives also wear the burqa/niqab. I've had people walk up to us, question us and after an explanation from my part still insist that I'm forcing my wife to dress that way. A friend of mine was physically assaulted when he was accompanying his wife and sisters by someone who said that he's offended that women were dressed like that.

Then we've had governments that try to make an issue out of this non-issue (i.e. that a small number of women wear niqab) instead of doing their job. They end up picking on the women who do choose to cover like that to show they're doing something instead of addressing real problems like healthcare and economy. They interfere in the name of gender equality and try shove their selective gender equality down our throats. So yeah, if people could simply have their own inconsequential opinions which they kindly kept to themselves, that would be great. Unfortunately there is some degree of interference and people sometimes just don't mind their own business.

Right, so what I'm saying is that discussion of whether it's a free choice or not is irrelevant. Just to put it in context for you, the question of choice can come up in a scenario where a guy is somewhere with his wife, who wears burqa/niqab. Sometimes a random person would ask him why he's forcing his wife to dress that way. His response would be that she does it out of her own choice. Some people will leave you alone after that but there are others who will then insist that since she's been told that it's the right thing to do, it was not a free choice.

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Initially you gave argument "she's been raised to think that she has to dress like that" but now you are giving extreme examples like forcing wife into wearing niqab.
Well, I believe IndiGo Rain didnt mention one choice is free and other is not. He just mentioned how people's choices are getting influneced.
YOU said the choice of people who cover is not free either... ok, no problem.

Again, the discussion becomes absurd if we take this argument at face value. Only thing left is to decide which choice is coming from ethics.

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It looks like you misunderstood. "She's been raised to think that she has to dress like that" isn't my argument. I was saying that that's how people who oppose women wearing it respond when they're told that the said women wear it by their own choice. My point was not that one choice is free while the other isn't--it was simply that when those who will say that a women wearing niqab isn't making a really free choice, the same can be said about any woman who dresses according to fashion trends or what not--that her choices are also being influenced, which makes the she's been raised to think she has to wear it argument irrelevant.

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The argument not irrelevant. Simply saying that choice is not free in not sufficient.

If parents make their children wear niqab, its their right. In most cases, same is true with a husband motivating his wife for wearing niqab/hijab.
Where as act of media as an outsider, influencing people's choine can be considered unfair.

Re: if a women is Free...

All I'm saying is that ok sure, the upbringing of the women can influence on their decision to wear the niqab/hijab, like the encouragement by the husband. So the people who oppose women wearing niqab/hijab will say that those women don't really have a free choice because of the said influences. It's to that that I'd say it's irrelevant because anyone can be said to have their own set of factors that influence their decisions on how they, such as the media. Therefore it makes no sense to single out women who wear niqab/hijab as not really having free choice when the same can be said about virtually anybody.

Otherwise I don't disagree with anything you've said.