Re: if a women is Free...
of course not...i haven't heard of any case. women across the board are against whole body scans but they don't mind pat down by a female security officer.
Re: if a women is Free...
From the experience I've had discussing (or arguing) with people on the topic, they simply don't seem to understand what freedom means. They thinka woman who wears something revealing by choice is** exercising freedom but **one who covers by choice isn't.
I am gonna off on a bit of a tangent from the article because I think the perception we have of freedom and oppression is interesting. It's not just about religious interpretation, but also according to common sense and an understanding of fitrat. Unfortunately we are living in times where many women believe that they will earn greater respect and approval with the shedding of their clothes. Look at message sent to young women through music videos in the West, item songs of Bollywood, and celebs like Lady Bla Bla and Miley Cyrus, etc. Sadly the West and other parts of the world see this as a form of emancipation, freedom, exposing is better than concealing. I watched a news segment on sex education and learned, to my horror, that they now have lingerie for 5-year-olds. There's nothing cute about that. Where is the world headed? Look at the pageant shows for little girls and the provocative ways these 3-5 year old girls are dressing and their mannerisms. People will argue that this example is in the minority and that most people don't support such pageants. The disturbing reality is that majority of society will have a much bigger problem with a burqa clad woman than a 3-year-old, skankily dressed, and acting like a lil' hoochie on stage. The latter will earn you a trophy, a headline in the newspaper, and tons of fame while the burqa is infamous, and shunned.
Re: if a women is Free...
of course not...i haven't heard of any case. women across the board are against whole body scans but they don't mind pat down by a female security officer.
My question was - is anyone being stopped from weaaring an abhaya if they agree to pat down etc
Your response - of course not.
So where is the problem? What r folks protesting here for wrt freedom to wear Abhaya.
Re: if a women is Free...
Lame argument.........terrorist use motor cars and trucks and pressure cookers............no one has banned any of these items...........I think the Frenchies are threatened by Modesty!
I think I have made my position pretty clear on this issue. The issue revolves around identification or the lack of is. Throwing around examples of shoes, cars, pressure cookers, and trucks don't make any sense. Southie also clarifies this further. Your face gets used to identify you first and foremost. Why do robbers wear a mask? They can also wear an abaya. Abaya will probably make a better disguise. Criminals wear gloves and masks to hide their identity. Why is this so hard to understand? Unless you just feel you must defend it because it is part of your faith. Just because it is a religious obligation (it is not by the way) does not make it the most sensible thing to do in any situation.
Re: if a women is Free...
Chalk that up to simple misrepresentation. As Bella's post 4 succinctly States it is the woman's choice. And I would add - to wear whatever she wants, within the law.
It is only when women are FORCED to wear attire based on someones religious interpretation that progressives cry foul. Unfortunately, that is mischaracterized, deliberately for the most part.
I read her post but that's not what I was referring to. As a man who's married to a woman who wears the niqab, I sometimes get lectured about women's rights by some women who assume that I'm forcing her to dress the way she does. So it's definitely not only when a woman is forced that they have a problem. Their problem is that essentially what I mentioned.
Is anyone bring stopped from wearing an abhaya if tgeey agree to being searched. That is - a pat down, uncovering of face so security can check face vs photo? They is the key question.n
As someone who has been on the receiving end of their lectures, I can tell you that it's certainly NOT only an issue of identification. Uncovering of the face for relevant officials for identification purposes is not an issue. Especially in the context of the OP.
For the most part it's about them forcing their opinion of what a woman covering herself in that manner means (i.e. that she's oppressed, whether she feels it or not).
Re: if a women is Free...
I am gonna off on a bit of a tangent from the article because I think the perception we have of freedom and oppression is interesting. It's not just about religious interpretation, but also according to common sense and an understanding of fitrat. Unfortunately we are living in times where many women believe that they will earn greater respect and approval with the shedding of their clothes. Look at message sent to young women through music videos in the West, item songs of Bollywood, and celebs like Lady Bla Bla and Miley Cyrus, etc. Sadly the West and other parts of the world see this as a form of emancipation, freedom, exposing is better than concealing. I watched a news segment on sex education and learned, to my horror, that they now have lingerie for 5-year-olds. There's nothing cute about that. Where is the world headed? Look at the pageant shows for little girls and the provocative ways these 3-5 year old girls are dressing and their mannerisms. People will argue that this example is in the minority and that most people don't support such pageants. The disturbing reality is that majority of society will have a much bigger problem with a burqa clad woman than a 3-year-old, skankily dressed, and acting like a lil' hoochie on stage. The latter will earn you a trophy, a headline in the newspaper, and tons of fame while the burqa is infamous, and shunned.
Actually I'll say this is really another aspect of the core discussion. This type of argument is also used by the people who oppose burqa, presumably on the basis of women's rights, when they're told that the women who wear it do so out of their own choice. They'll respond with something along the lines of "she's been raised to think that she has to dress like that, it's not really a free choice."
Re: if a women is Free...
I read her post but that's not what I was referring to. As a man who's married to a woman who wears the niqab, I sometimes get lectured about women's rights by some women who assume that I'm forcing her to dress the way she does. So it's definitely not only when a woman is forced that they have a problem. Their problem is that essentially what I mentioned.
As someone who has been on the receiving end of their lectures, I can tell you that it's certainly NOT only an issue of identification. Uncovering of the face for relevant officials for identification purposes is not an issue. Especially in the context of the OP.
For the most part it's about them forcing their opinion of what a woman covering herself in that manner means (i.e. that she's oppressed, whether she feels it or not).
People assuming hubris forcing ur wife are ashwholes. There r ashewholes evrrywherr
Re: if a women is Free...
Actually I'll say this is really another aspect of the core discussion. This type of argument is also used by the people who oppose burqa, presumably on the basis of women's rights, when they're told that the women who wear it do so out of their own choice. They'll respond with something along the lines of "she's been raised to think that she has to dress like that, it's not really a free choice."
Exactly what I would say! This type of argument can back fire to the one presenting it.
Re: if a women is Free...
From the experience I've had discussing (or arguing) with people on the topic, they simply don't seem to understand what freedom means. They think a woman who wears something revealing by choice is exercising freedom but one who covers by choice isn't.
people are always going to judge others. don't people judge women who show too much skin? people give all sorts of nasty labels to those women. it goes both ways.
Re: if a women is Free...
people are always going to judge others. don't people judge women who show too much skin? people give all sorts of nasty labels to those women. it goes both ways.
Sure, people judge all the time. Though I wouldn't call this a judgement as much as a mistaken assumption. That and the inability to grasp that just because you wouldn't want to do something doesn't mean that nobody else would.
I dont care if the woman is wearing full abaya, in fact respect it. What bothers me is when I see she with her hubby in a hot sweaty day where the poor girl is fully clad in black abaya, while mulla disco is roaming around in knee length shorts and half sleeve tshirt. Yes I know that your satar is from belly button to knee but have some shame. At least for the sake of that poor girl, wear full clothes so if she sweats, you sweat too, or don't bring her out on picnics where you enjoy, and she sits in a corner wearing an oven
Re: if a women is Free...
I dont care if the woman is wearing full abaya, in fact respect it. What bothers me is when I see she with her hubby in a hot sweaty day where the poor girl is fully clad in black abaya, while mulla disco is roaming around in knee length shorts and half sleeve tshirt. Yes I know that your satar is from belly button to knee but have some shame. At least for the sake of that poor girl, wear full clothes so if she sweats, you sweat too, or don't bring her out on picnics where you enjoy, and she sits in a corner wearing an oven
Yes, but what if she insists and she is happy sweating gallons? Not the guy's fault, is it?
Re: if a women is Free...
I am gonna off on a bit of a tangent from the article because I think the perception we have of freedom and oppression is interesting. It's not just about religious interpretation, but also according to common sense and an understanding of fitrat. Unfortunately we are living in times where many women believe that they will earn greater respect and approval with the shedding of their clothes. Look at message sent to young women through music videos in the West, item songs of Bollywood, and celebs like Lady Bla Bla and Miley Cyrus, etc. Sadly the West and other parts of the world see this as a form of emancipation, freedom, exposing is better than concealing. I watched a news segment on sex education and learned, to my horror, that they now have lingerie for 5-year-olds. There's nothing cute about that. Where is the world headed? Look at the pageant shows for little girls and the provocative ways these 3-5 year old girls are dressing and their mannerisms. People will argue that this example is in the minority and that most people don't support such pageants. The disturbing reality is that majority of society will have a much bigger problem with a burqa clad woman than a 3-year-old, skankily dressed, and acting like a lil' hoochie on stage. The latter will earn you a trophy, a headline in the newspaper, and tons of fame while the burqa is infamous, and shunned.
That assumption you're making isn't any better than those who believe women who wear a burqa or even hijab are 'oppressed.'
Believe it or not some women actually wear sleeveless, short dresses and skirts because they themselves feel comfortable in those clothes, not necessarily because of media or social pressure..
The 'message' you've mentioned could equally apply to very young girls in hijab and abaya.. You or I might think they look sweet or decent but others might interpret it as a form of 'brainwashing' (eg teaching your child that not covering means you have 'loose' morals).. If you want people to respect a woman's right to wear burqa and hijab you should extend that same courtesy to those who choose not to wear it as well imo..
Re: if a women is Free…
Struck a nerve there, I guess. I don’t go around barring women from wearing clothes that expose their awrah even though I don’t approve of them; so I’ve extended that courtesy to them. In my former post, I was addressing what I feel is an irony in the Western perception of the abaaya whether it is worn due to force or of a woman’s free will while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the cons on the flip side of the coin. Tumhe koi apni minis aur sleeveless pehnay se rok raha hai kya? Nope. Is there any legislation underway in your part of the world threatening this freedom of yours? Are people rallying or lobbying against it? Nope. To phir tum baray araam se, sakoon se, khushi se, jo marzi pehno aur apna aap duniya k aagay expose karti raho. :k: Though, keep in mind, that the way one dresses, even if it’s of their own free will and done for reasons like comfort, is not devoid of consequences or impact.
Re: if a women is Free...
Read the last sentence and apply it to those wearing a burkha.
Other than France I am not sure burkha is banned anywhere else. While to the best of my knowledge in saudi Arabia a woman HAS to cover her head. Probably in some other countries also? So while I support the burkha issue in France I don't see much enthusiasm among some to be consistent when it comes to choice in conservative country then the meme is - majority should decide. They have a right to an Islamic state with Islamic laws.
A bit of consistency would be nice. (This is only addressed to those to which post applicable)
Re: if a women is Free…
…there you go! Applies to anyone regardless of religion, race, or nationality. Fair enough?
Re: if a women is Free...
Theory just stated it more succinctly. Am signing up for concise writing 101. How much u charge?
Re: if a women is Free...
Yes, the last sentence does apply to everyone, even those who wear burqas. I know that. The burkah clad woman will be seen in a more negative light than the scantily clad one. Both types of dressing have their consequences, but the former is more scrutinized, it's thought to be a purely evil thing with no benefits whatsoever. Lol, the freedom you're so proud of can also be abused, it's got a dark side to as well.
Re: if a women is Free...
Yes, the last sentence does apply to everyone, even those who wear burqas. I know that.** The burkah clad woman will be seen in a more negative light than the scantily clad one.** Both types of dressing have their consequences, but the former is more scrutinized, it's thought to be a purely evil thing with no benefits whatsoever. Lol, the freedom you're so proud of can also be abused, it's got a dark side to as well.
really? I guess you didn't think about that one at all. When in Pakistan, do as the Pakistanis do but if you are anywhere else, you still do as the Pakistanis do. With that attitude, no wonder people don't like us. Can we be a little consistent? Can we be just a little less hypocritical?
Re: if a women is Free...
IndigoRain, you haven't struck a nerve.. Yes, I wear sleeveless and so on and I do that out of comfort and personal preference.. If people want to judge that's up to them but really they should think look in the mirror and ask themselves what it would feel like if they were on the receiving end.. My mum wears hijab and people make all sorts of comments about it so I see both sides.. I'd always defend a woman's right to cover but at the same time I'd appreciate people allowing me the freedom to dress how I choose as well..