One thing i have noticed travelling and living in different countries is that there are very few who are happy with their nationality or their national identity in the Islamic world. While the rest of the world specifically the eastern europeans are extremely nationalistic and take great pride in their culture and traditions. Even the most ardent secularist french will celebrate a french religious holiday. French food is always to be revered. There is now a desireto create a European identity and to interlink cultures and practices. The Eastern Europeans are of course even more hardcore due to their recent independence and re-establishment of national identity.
The swiss pride themselves deeply on their neutrality and icons of identity. The American people as well pride themselves on similar cultural icons and until recently very proudly declared they were American. Thanks to Bush Jr. that has changed. The nationals of Latin America are very much the same. Heck they hate it when you get their countries confused.
However our good old Pakistanis are more inclined to thinking that they would rather be some other nationality. Once abroad they adopt the styles and common cultural practices of their host nation forgetting that they are economic migrants and not nationals of that nation. I will give an example to illustrate the difference.
A have a dutch friend. We casually refer to him as dutch as he holds the passport. He identifies himself as Chinese first. Indonesian second. Dutch last. He has in the past 4 years tried to get both Chinese and Indonesian nationality.
Our Pakistani brethern for the most part once they get nationality forget they are Pakistani. Unlike others who emphasize their racial or ancestoral history first, they say they are citizens of the host nation. Its quite sad and pathetic personally. But to each his own.
The point of discussion where which will be totally ignored due to the fact that this is Gupshup is how closely does the above gross generalization mimic real life?
CM, How many people have you met to make such a grand claim about Pakistanis? While you are in NYC, go visit a few ethnic enclaves, and see for yourself. Pakistanis are very much Paksitanis (at least Punjabis) no matter what part of the planet they live in. That’s been my experience, living in oh like some 3000 countries.
How about people who identify themselves by religion before country of origin and residence? Or those who are more influenced by their host country than their "home" country? I'll use myself as an example: I consider myself more American than Pakistani because I was born and raised here. But that doesn't mean that i'm "ashamed" of being Paki. In fact, I consider myself more cultural and Pakistani here, than I do in Pakistan... However, above any nationality or ethnicity is my religion. I consider myself Muslim more than anything else..
However, I've yet to see any Pakistanis rejecting their home country and itching to be totally "American".... as Madhanee said, visit the Pakistani enclaves here, and ull find nobody is itching to be the all-American boy/girl...it's only when there's no one around you with whom you can share experiences without having to explain fifty milion things that you try to assimilate as well as possible into the surrounding culture.
Sara, how is being Muslim an identity? Muslims come in all colors, races, etc. It’s like saying that I am a Man first, and Pakistani second. I think CM is saying (I could be wrong) that Pakistanis in general are not as proud of their ethnic origins as (some) other Nationalities. I am arguing that that is not always the case, and CM is making a broad generalization. In my experience, there are many many Pakistanis whom I have met (sme second and 3rd generation) who are proud of their Pakistani ethnic background. Sure there are some who are not, but that group is certainly a very small one.
Well technically, you ARE a man first. Biologically, before cultural/national/religious identification, you're a man. And for some, their beliefs come before everything else. I know that physically, you're not born a certain religion, but for some you might as well be. And also, this is the best way i can put it....I used to be really confused about if I'm more american or Paki, and how I should balance the two or which one I should choose since both isn't really an option....yeah I was an ABCD I guess you could say, but then I realzied that an ethnic/natioanl identity isn't as important as a religious identity (for meself). I can honestly say I've never been confused about being Muslim..
Is the Dutch friend you talk about Pakistani, Chinese or Dutch?
Is he maybe a little of each?
I am American but if someone were to ask my nationality I would say.... Polish and German with a dash of Irish in my big toe from my ggg-grandmother Bridget who was born 1846 somewhere in Ireland and died in the midwest in 1940 at the ripe old age of 94...
Where I live there are many ethnic celebrations even including Kwanza. There are Polish fests, Italanian fests, German fests, Greek fests... International fests.. I love going to the festivals, the ethnic foods and traditions.
There are Indian, Italian, German, Chinese, Vietnamese and even Bosnian restraunts....the locations of restraunts are often in sort of a enclave where people of these various nationalities originally settled.... the Italians of the Hill, Germans of South City...etc. even some of the architecture in various neighborhoods and older churches reflect various nationalities...
Pakistanis cling to their culture and religion very much so. It's a wrong assessment that they assimiliate with the host culture and customs that easy. I don't consider partaking X-mass or Thanksgiving celebrations assimilliation really. Few habits, few duplicities here and there amount to not much. It's how you identify with the society you're living in that counts. Pakistanis are very root-centric and enclave-oriented. This is more evident even by looking at the second generation Pakistanis who are born in their parents' host counteries.
I've seen Polish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and second generations of almost all other nationalities in US and they are just like Americans. But when it comes to desis you see a wide range among them. Some are totally assimilliated others more conservative than even Pakistanis in Pakistan. And the rest are pretty much in between.
Most of the pakistani kids ive grown up with here in melbourne cant speak, read, or write urdu.. (and im pretty much in that category too, apart from speaknig and being able to read a bit)..
I think its to do with the way your parents raise u.. to a certain extent. Some parents are proud of the fact that their kids arent "pakistani". Ive often heard aunties stating "my son/daughter doesnt eat desi food at all... I have to make a separate dish for him/her".. and its the same when it comes to wearing traditional clothes.
The trend however is changing now. I'm not sure whats brought the change, but these kids who were completely australian up till about 1-2 years ago, are now becoming more cultured and are proud of their pakistani heritage. Well, its a slow process.. but it is happening. And some are even attempting to speak urdu/punjabi..
the pakistanis here in OZ are so different to ones ive seen in US, Canada and England.. its very interesting
Sadzzz, you've a good point. I was specifically talking about US. I'm not too sure about UK or other counteries since I've not lived there but from interacting with some of the people there I definitely think there is a difference. For example, Desis in UK have been settling there for many generations. They have already learned to better assimilliate in those counteries spawaning their experiences and level of comfort for a long time.
But immigration of Pakistanis to US is not that old. Majority of the Pakistanis' immigration to US probably happened during 80's and later. They have not learned to conform or assimilliate like their counterparts in other counteries have. Even Canada is probably more similiar to UK than US.
The other reason is that European culture is more "open" compared to American culture. American culture may be a melting pot of diverse nationalities but it's more like a cloister in seclusion compared to rest of the Western world.
Roman, I think its the same here in OZ. Well, in melbourne neways. Sydney, Brisbane, Perth have a larger pakistani community and they seem to be more united in their ways. This could be because there are actual khandans who have migrated to these cities... Hobart (Tasmania) is another city where Pakistanis have held onto their culture.. but their reasoning is i guess a bit different. Its such a small place that everyone (indians, pakistanis, bangladeshis) stick together and keep the culture alive...
Melbourne, is quite different though as Pakistanis only started migrating here in the 80's. There were pakistani students who did come here in the 70's and got married and brought their wives here (the group that im in) and these are the people who are I guess more western than pakistani.. It's more the families who have moved here during the mid-to-late 90's that are cultured and more traditional.. Its odd I know, but thats what I've noticed.
Most of the people I know are Australian born and bred, hence the reason why they behave like Aussies and call themselves that too and I kinda agree with them to a certain extent... Me on the other hand, I think im a half half... but thats purely cause of the way my parents have raised me and my siblings
Interesting Roman...i've never lived in Britain so most of what I know is just what I've read here...I've heard quite the opposite going on in britain. While immigration of desis to Britain may have been going on much longer than immigration to the States, I've heard Pakis in the UK are still very much holding on to their roots and haven't been as successful as assimilating into the mainstream culture as much as the American Pakis have...
I think it just depends where you go. Places with a lot of Pakistanis in one area are more likely to keep their culture alive and hold on to their traditions, whereas those who live in areas with a very small Pakistani/desi population, are more likely to adopt their own culture..it's the strength in numbers thing...
^ it depends.. uve got two different extremes happening in Britain. So ive seen and been told. U have those who have completely left their culture behind and those who are hanging onto it like they've never even left Pak/India..
what i find really amusing is how indians get offended for being called a pakistani there.. its wierd. Over here in melbourne, pakistanis and indians get along so well... my bro for example, his best friends are a Sikh, Hindu and a Muslim... and i love the way they are with each other...
Well, like I said i wouldn’t know so much about desis in the Uk, adn whatever opinions I have of it are simply through personal accounts I’ve read here on GS …n bout the indians being offended…i saw that in “Bend it Like Beckham” lol..well I know Pakis get offended at being known as “indian”… u wud think they were called whores or some other gaali …
^ umm na that again depends on where u r :) over here, indian/paki its the same thing for us... well i guess it depends on ones tolerance levels (and maybe education too)
I consider myself Muslim… I don’t understnad your question.
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