Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

muqawwee123 · April 1, 2012, 10:01am

Read this article about the contribution of Greek towards philosophy, etc. We Muslims also produced scholars like Ibn e Rushd (Averroes). But now since centuries, Muslim world had not produced such scholars. Whats the reason behind this?

The history of modernity reads approximately like this. Around the time of Buddha, 500 years before Christ, the world was an ignorant place. It had little science. Reason was subordinate to power.

And then, in the 5th century BC, from nowhere, Greece produced a miracle. A series of geniuses, unprecedented in their fields of study, came to the world. Herodotus, the first historian, wrote a book on the wonders of Egypt, Persia and India around 480 BC. He was followed by the war historian Thucydides. Then Xenophon, a scholar and a mercenary who fought in Persia. He wrote the first book on economics. In the same period, Hippocrates wrote a treaty of medicine.

Athens, a city of only 50,000 men produced the great philosophers Socrates and Plato. **Philosophy means love of truth and these men were freethinkers of the highest order. Euclid discovered geometry, while to the west, Pythagoras had his theorem and the theory of music. In this period, Athens also invented democracy, the first time that man chose who would govern him. More importantly, he would also decide who would interpret the laws. The jury was invented. Aristotle, who studied under Plato, developed the system of logic and classification, producing modern science and biology. The Greeks pondered about creation. They asked themselves that if everything had a cause, how could the universe, and indeed God, have come to being without something propelling them? **In the 4th century BC, Aristotle’s pupil Alexander the Great conquered Egypt. After this, the best Greek minds moved to Alexandria to further refine the sciences.

The decline of Athens and Greece accelerated after the rise of Rome. Though the Romans revered the Greeks and many Roman historians wrote in Greek, they were themselves more interested in conquest than knowledge. The decline of Rome began before the rise of Christianity in the 4th century AD and Rome was finished off by the time Islam came to the world in the 7th century.

The church did not allow freethinking about the nature of the universe as the Greeks had. Instead, it insisted on biblical truths about virgin births, magic apples, God’s progeny and 1000-year-old men. Those who theorised differently were burnt for being heretics.

Science declined across Europe as all the best young minds turned to the clergy, where the money was, since the church was the most powerful institution. A parallel development was the decline of the Greek language after the Bible was translated into Latin. Greek science was locked into Greek manuscripts, most of which were lost. This was the period Europe called the Dark Ages, centuries of decline in learning.

Then something remarkable happened.

In the 11th century, a group of churchmen called the Scholastics began to study science. They did so to defend the church’s orthodoxies against charges that they were inconsistent and unscientific. Their studies brought them to Aristotle, who had theorised on the origins of the universe, among other things. A brilliant clergyman called Thomas Aquinas resolved the problem of the universe and its cause to the satisfaction of science-minded Christians. God, he said, was the Creator before whom there was no Creation. He was eternal and, Aquinas said, formless.

Much later, around the 15th century, the church became fascinated with Plato. He was hailed as the greatest philosopher of all time, a position he has held in the modern era. This romantic rediscovery of ancient Greece was not limited to philosophy and medicine and science. It took physical form in Italy’s town, Florence. Here, a powerful business family called the Medici began patronising art that reproduced the architectural and sculptural styles of ancient Greece. And so we got Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci. In 1550, the art historian Giorgio Vasari gave this renewal of Greek culture in art a name: The Renaissance.

From here we have the Enlightenment that produced the modern philosophers in Scotland, Francis Bacon and, later, the scientists of the Royal Society in England and the people who reformed religion in Germany and elsewhere in northern Europe. End of story. Cut to the modern world, space travel and internet. To most people, this is the sequence in which modernity unfolded in human history. And more or less that is how it did.

**
As easterners, as Hindus and Muslims, should we accept this sequence as pure? Are we mere recipients of modern culture or participants? Did we have any contribution to make? **

A brief history of modernity – The Express Tribune

PS: There are some funny comments in response to this article where likes of Zaid Hamid, Amir Liaquat have been compared with these scholars :smack2:

the_kaur · April 1, 2012, 1:07pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Islam originated from the place which had limited resources and had a powerful pagan culture in which priests wielded power on their subject, rise of prophet(pbuh) was the biggest challenge to them, in fact the civilization and tolerance in the Arabs came only after Prophet, unlike Greeks who lived in powerful empire, Arabs weren't that much secure, Prophet was social reformer of Arabia:), Islam never had problem with modern science except theory of evolution nor Muslim clergy was powerful enough like church to wield power on their subject like in modern times ever.

Hindus on the other hand wrote Vedas in poetic form, it was philosophical work covering, nature of god, praising god, dharma(duties) of an individual, structure of society and role of groups, duty of society etc
Hindus in ancient India even had Ganrajyas(republics) as well:), the system of Panch-pradhan where village elders took decision for betterment of village was close to democracy:)

muqawwee123 · April 1, 2012, 1:21pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

But Muslim scholars had to face resistance from factors like Mulla and biased royal court. Averroes was punished to clean the shoes of the people at the door of a Mosque, because his theories were taken as against the Islamic teachings. Even if I'm not mistaken, the famous Tafaaseers of Quran (explanations) were written by the scholars during their imprisonment.

muqawwee123 · April 1, 2012, 6:28pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Ninja, lagta hai you missed this thread. Whats your point of view for this comparison?

muqawwee123 · April 2, 2012, 12:16pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

So who is the modern day Ibn e Rushd in Muslim World? Zaid Hamid, Amir Liaqat, Ghamidi or Haroon Yahya?

the_kaur · April 2, 2012, 12:36pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Resistance is natural, the resistance faced by Prophet was even harder, Abrahmic religions are revealed religions, from God to Humans, hence they are complete in their theology, by complete I mean they have rules and regulation for political,social,economical conducts in day to day life. Any explanation that is not agreeable by the scholors hailing from particular rule of thought is ofter considered either heretic or haram by those scholars. For further understanding of Islam one has to look into pre-Islamic Arabian paganism, its philosophical theology and its impact on explanation of verses in Qur'an:)

ninja_hattori · April 2, 2012, 12:44pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Harun yahya ko kin chawalon ke saath mila diya hai muqawwee bhai...................actually lot of greek works were saved in arabic script by muslim scholars....aflatoon,sukraat,arstoo you can understand how muslims created their own version of greek names of plato,socrates and aristotle after studying these philosophers....biggest work of arab scholar was passing knowledge of arabic numerals from india to west....

the_kaur · April 2, 2012, 12:54pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Nice points ninja hattori, aflatoon, sukraat, arstoo were also part of Madrassa teaching along with arts, mathematics and geography, along with persian and arabic languages, hence Indians at that time were as educated as students of Victorian england. Arabs also brought their trading and sea faring experience in India thus giving Indian spices a fine taste of global market.

muqawwee123 · April 2, 2012, 1:32pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

I was also shocked when I read these comparison. Yes Muslims did contributed a lot to today's subjects, but the question is why we don't have produced such scholars atleast for 4-5 centuries. Quran encourages us to think and research, but Muslims have been made to strictly follow the old rulings not by Quran, but by Muslim clergy.

muqawwee123 · April 2, 2012, 1:36pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Even in India Al-Bayrooni has amazing contribution in Mathematics and Astronomy. He is said to be the pioneer in comparative study of religions.

ninja_hattori · April 2, 2012, 1:55pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Even rockets used by tipu sultan,cannons used by mughal and tamancha used by mughals are example of progress of muslims in technology.....

muqawwee123 · April 2, 2012, 1:56pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

What do you mean by tamancha? Explain and illustrate with diagrams?

ninja_hattori · April 2, 2012, 4:05pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

sabse niche wali gun…

Restored attachments:

muqawwee123 · April 2, 2012, 4:07pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

You mean Mughal bachas used to play with this khilona gun :hehe:

the_kaur · April 3, 2012, 12:58pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Al-Beruni studied Hinduism in correct perspective, he even said that at its core Hinduism is as monotheistic as Islam. He studied sanskrit to understand the religion, Hindus were brilliant in astronomy and mathematics. they had good knowledge of astronomy, they new all 88 constellation, Ursa Major=Saptarishi, Orion=kalpurush, Scorpion=Vrishchika, Pleiades=Kritika etc, calculated the distance between Earth and Moon, knew about Heliocentric nature of solar system, planets like Mercury=Buddha, Mars=Mangal, Venus=Shukra, Jupiter=Brishapati, Saturn=Shani are part of astrology since then:)
In mathemactics, they already had preliminary knowledge of trigonomety and Baskarcharya even taught Quadratic equations in Algebra:), Al-Beruni’s translation helped Indians to cross the intellectual border to certain extent. sometimes he used to get frustated by Panditji, “Hindus think they live in best country, have the best kings, and are smartest in this whole universe” is also mentioned by him. He was the best traveler and Hindus were lucky to have him around:)

Looks like desi katta found in Jatland, my naani told me how to make one, but I doubt if I can make one now:)

muqawwee123 · April 3, 2012, 1:12pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

the_kaur:

Al-Beruni studied Hinduism in correct perspective, he even said that at its core Hinduism is as monotheistic as Islam. He studied sanskrit to understand the religion, Hindus were brilliant in astronomy and mathematics. they had good knowledge of astronomy, they new all 88 constellation, Ursa Major=Saptarishi, Orion=kalpurush, Scorpion=Vrishchika, Pleiades=Kritika etc, calculated the distance between Earth and Moon, knew about Heliocentric nature of solar system, planets like Mercury=Buddha, Mars=Mangal, Venus=Shukra, Jupiter=Brishapati, Saturn=Shani are part of astrology since then:) In mathemactics, they already had preliminary knowledge of trigonomety and Baskarcharya even taught Quadratic equations in Algebra:), Al-Beruni's translation helped Indians to cross the intellectual border to certain extent. sometimes he used to get frustated by Panditji, "Hindus think they live in best country, have the best kings, and are smartest in this whole universe" is also mentioned by him. He was the best traveler and Hindus were lucky to have him around:)

Looks like desi katta found in Jatland, my naani told me how to make one, but I doubt if I can make one now:)

So the Indian name of days Shaniwar, Shukrwar, Mangal war, Budhwar are on the names of planted. I used to thought Shukrwar is from Arabic Shukr = Thankfulness.. :)

the_kaur · April 3, 2012, 1:38pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

The entire calender has some astronomical, most of the festival are on either poornima(full moon) or Amavasya(no moon) day:), the days were named on Sunday=Ravivar, Ravi means sun in sanskrit, Monday=somwar, som is alcohol, it is said Indra and Bhagwan Shiv loves it like I do:D
Months signifies various seasons India goes through in a year, it is moon based calender, and placement of moon with respect to constellation also gives concept of astrological moon signs:)

muqawwee123 · April 3, 2012, 1:45pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Now I know, why Monday is not a good day :D

muqawwee123 · April 3, 2012, 1:46pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

But how Diwali always fall in winters, when Indian calendar is moon based. Because Islamic calendar is also moon based, but we have Ramadan sometimes in January and now in July-August.

the_kaur · April 3, 2012, 1:53pm

Re: Ibn e Rushd Vs Zaid Hamid

Yeah they should have named Friday as Somwar and Monday as Shukrawar, so that on friday we can officially do "Ek glassy do glassy teen glassy char":D, Anyways, Shukra planet is named after Brhmrishi Shukracharya, another wine lover:D