IAF Capabilities vs PAF Power

Society Military and Strategic Issues
41

ha ha. Paki humor! DUH
Better Armed Fiorces in quality than Pak in Asia:-
Israel, China, India, South Korea etc.

By the way, I seriously doubt that you passed geography exam on your own? Look around, you are in Asia not Africa.:)

42

What happened to Russia? Are they part of "etc" nowadays?

GS Apprentice - TEAM 4 (Task 1)!!!!!!
43

Ok... Tell me who have kept the rise of terrorist anti-Islam regime of Iran in the middle-east in check then if Saudi Army is so weak? If these crazy Ayatollahs get their hands on a nuclear bomb, the first thing they would do is to bomb al-Hejaz...

Guest of the Week - Kinzz
Guest of the Week - Kinzz
44

Aye aye, Captain! You got me! I am not offering it as an excuse but don't you find Russia under Medvedev to be more European than Asian!

45

Wow! With all due respect to the rules of this forum I want to say that most of your posts (in other threads) are outrightly illogical. I guess you are the one who claimed that PAK is even militarily superior than US because of Allah. I am just bubbling out to tell you some facts but the rules of this forum bind my hands. Can you suggest any other site where you are registered and which exercises lesser restraint?

46

When did i say PAK is even militarily superior than US because of Allah, prove this to me if u can nd if u cant than i am sure u will have a bit of sharam left nd u wont reply!

NOTE: No personal attacks!

47

Don't talk to this please and waste your precious time. Little does he knows that due to Allah(SWT)'s blessings, Pakistani army and air force handed India a humiliating defeat in 1965 war. 1971 was lost due to ghaddari of Bengla quam who were not willing to be part of an Islamic nation and instead took support of our enemy #1 and an anti-muslim state. It was a sad event for Pakistan. Why is Bengladesh failing is because they have started ignoring people's desire for Sharia and not voting Jamaat to power. Islam is answer for everything in life.

NOTE: No personal attack!

48

that is what official. i would be quoting some actual pilots/instructors etc with videos (although didnt had stomach to watch in full) so transcripts would be better.

49

**Col. Discusses India’s SU-30 MKI’s Poor Performance in the Red Flag Air Force Exercise. **
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU)

there are other parts to the above and youcan dig in for more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNie0HzPmaY)

i couldnt find an article which discussed the issue in detail.

i dont want to say here that IAF is inferior to PAF.
there is no doubt IAF has great pieces of hardware but it doesnt mean it can still win.
PAF has enough capability to fight a defensive battle and that is what it has to do.

50

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action | AVIATION WEEK

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action

Nov 5, 2008
David A. Fulghum and Graham Warwick

Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they’re still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.

That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com.

The French pilots flying the new Dassault Rafale appeared to be there to collect electronic intelligence on the Indian aircraft, contends the USAF pilot, who wears an Air Force Weapons School graduate patch.

The French were originally going to bring the older Mirage 2000-5 until they discovered the Indians were bringing their new Su-30MKIs, the pilot says. They then switched and brought their Rafales with more sophisticated electronic surveillance equipment.

Once at Red Flag, “90 percent of the time they followed the Indians so when they took a shot or got shot” they would take a quick shot of their own and then leave," he said. “They never came to any merges,” which starts the dogfighting portion of any air-to-air combat. He asserts that French pilots followed the same procedure during Desert Storm and Peace Keeping exercises. When U.S. aircrews were flying operations, the French would fly local sorties while “sucking up all the trons” to see how U.S. electronics, like radars, worked, according to the pilot.

He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they “killed a lot of friendlies” because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn’t allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.

But the U.S. apparently isn’t ignorant of the Su-30MKI’s radar either.

The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, “it paints less, sees less” and is not as discriminating.

He praised the F-22 as the next great dogfighter. But he faulted the fact that it carries too few missiles and contends that the on-board cannon could be a life-saver, particularly against aircraft like the MiG-21 Bison flown by the Indians. It has a small radar cross section, as well as an Israeli-made F-16 radar and jammer. The latter makes them “almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars” until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.

Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. “It starts dropping so fast you don’t have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and “get one chance to come down to shoot,” the pilot says. “You go to guns and drill his brains out.” The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so…you go to guns and drill his brains out.”

U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is “not [an F-22] Raptor,” he further says. “That was good for us to find out.” But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - “they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver,” he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine’s vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches.

51

Shaz -->But in an event of war if all the Pakistani people unite (which they will InshAllah) than the Balance will be oppostie 3:1 to Pakistan :D coz trust me if we the ppl of pak become one than even US cant harm us let alone India.... We can surprise the whole world... all we need is a bit of unity:)
Thread "** Military balance of Pak and india... **".

Please use restrain while posting, it shows your etiquettes!

Now who has been proved to eat his own words?

52

I want to ask you this whether an official statement from Pentagon/Topgun is worth more or a statement from single Pilots comments weigh more. The USAF has already alienated itself from the pilots comments and has offered an apology. I am posting the whole article again.** Please read it before you reply again!**

The IAF has been exercising with other air forces like the United States Air Force (USAF), French Air Force, Singapore Air Force, and Israeli Air Force over the last couple of years. An earlier variant of the MKI, the MK, took part in war games with the USAF during Cope-India 04 where USAF F-15 Eagles were pitted against Indian Air Force Su-30MKs, Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s and elderly MiG-21. The results have been widely publicized, with the Indians winning “90% of the mock combat missions”. [27] In July 2008, the IAF sent 6 Su-30MKIs and 2 aerial-refueling tankers, the Il-78MKI, to participate in the Red Flag exercise.[28] In October 2008, a video surfaced on the internet which featured a USAF colonel criticizing the performance of the Su-30MKI pilots during the exercise.[29] USAF issued an apology to IAF and distanced itself from the remarks of the colonel.[30].**

**COPE INDIA **
Wednesday, November 30, 2005
Topgun

Over the next couple of months, there will be extended discussions of COPE INDIA, the annual exercise between the U.S Air Force and its Indian counterpart.

COPE INDIA began in 2004, with mock dogfights between USAF F-15 EAGLES and Indian Air Force SU-27 FLANKERs. The results of COPE INDIA were surprising, **not because the FLANKERs and their air-to-air missiles provded to be technically advanced (we already knew that), but because theIndian pilots proved to be more tactically advanced than we had originally assessed. ** Indian FLANKER pilots effectively employed their aircraft against the F-15s, proving more than a match for their American counterparts.

I haven’t seen any official reports on the latest COPE INDIA exercise, which pitted Indian FLANKERs against U.S. F-16CJs from Misawa AB, Japan. According to a recent article in the Christian Science Monitor, some Indian sources are claiming they gained the upper hand, while others are making more guarded assessments.

The Monitor article is disappointing in a couple of respects. First, it bases much of its assessment on comments from military chatrooms and bulletin boards, which may (or may not) be accurate. Secondly, some of article’s observations should be placed in a more accurate context. For example, Monitor reporter Scott Baldauf notes that U.S. fighter prowress is slipping, based on the results of COPE INDIA, and the introduction of newer Russian and French aircraft, with technical capabilities similar to our F-15s and F-16s.

It’s worth noting that the American fighters now being “matched” by other countries were first introduced in the 1970s, and the versions that flew in COPE INDIA are almost 20 years old. In other words, foreign designers are just now matching U.S. technology that appeared decades ago. Additionally, Mr. Baldauf fails to note that the U.S. has significantly raised the bar for fighter technology, with the introduction of the F/A-22 Raptor. The F/A-22 has never appeared at COPE INDIA and likely never will, given the advanced (and sensitive) technology associated with that airframe. With its advanced stealth capabilities, the Raptor can acquire, engage and destroy other aircraft without being detected. That’s a tremendous capability, one that no other Air Force can match.

It is also dangerous to translate the Indian example to other nations that operate the SU-27. The Indian Air Force is one of only a handful of third-world air forces that can fully exploit the capabilities of an advanced fighter. China may have 400 FLANKERs, but its tactics are well behind those of the U.S., most NATO air forces, Japan, South Korea, India, and Singapore, just to name a few. Flying a SU-27 like an older MiG-23 FLOGGER or MiG-21 FISHBED makes no tactical sense, but the tactics of many FLANKER operators are antiquated, to say the least.

The Indians deserve credit for developing the tactics and training programs required to fully employ their advanced aircraft. But describing COPE INDIA as an Indian Air Force rout is premature at best, and a likely exaggeration of what actually transpired. The exercise provided valuable training for both sides, and for U.S. pilots , exposure to aircraft and missiles they may see in combat in the near future. Flying against those threats–in the hands of skilled IAF pilots–makes COPE INDIA a valuable exercise, indeed.

**RED FLAG (Vegas)
IAF shot down almost equal no. of Raptors with SU-30MKI without using its Radar in US Air Space, reason being the fact that such sensitive technology shouldn’t fall in foreign hands. Without the much advanced radar Indians were like one hand tied back which resulted in some Friend Kills but over all this has caused speculations in USAF about the much boasted capability of Raptor (which is a 5th generation fighter).

Results are classified but official statements explicitly say that Indians didn’t have total Air Superiority but in no case they were worse than any of the other Air Forces (including US and Frech).
~Pentagon

**

53

I have asked the channel manager to give you a befitting reply! Please show restraint while posting comments on a Forum, it shows your etiquettes and :)

Note: No attack on anyone's religion!

54

True, but the point is for how long? The results of COPE INDIA (leave RED FLAG if you don't want to agree. Anyway, that was RAPTOR vs. SU-30MKI, Pak doesn't have Raptors) showed that SU-30MKI achieved a 9:1 kill ratio against F-16s and F-15s(F-15 is a much better plane compared to F-16). How long Pak will able to thwart IAF's intention to have Air Superioirity over PAK Air Space given the fact that Pak has 32 F-16s while India has 4 squdrons (80 planes) of SU-30MKIs today. What outcome do you expect? Please be fair with your analysis! I have really found you rational! Should there be some confulsion please post it again.

55

Re: IAF Capabilities vs PAF Power

^^JF-17 can also be used to bring down SU-30MKI :@:

56

Re: IAF Capabilities vs PAF Power

Sandhu786 and Shaz: Please stop bringing religion in the equation here, its not like our PAF pilots are momineen where even if they sneeze enemy pilots will be blown away, I hope you get the point.

57

Re: IAF Capabilities vs PAF Power

^^ :rotfl:

58

When did i bring religion in this :konfused:

59

lets make it realistic .

it was a inside briefing was a bit casual and i would belive it more than official press handouts, and some valid points were raised and it doesnt mean hardware is inferior, for me it was like pilots yet need to learn he hardware.

that wasnt only raptor against but f15 and f16s.

you see maneuvers are so important when in fight i am no expert just concluding based on my crude logic..

example: again desert storm.
technically i would match migs 25 and 29s with f15s and f16s but performance in desert storm was inferior.
had seen few simulations of dog fights and clearly in those training comes in.
israeli arab 1967 war great hardware on egyptian side but they were wiped out.

yomkipur war same planes with PAF and syrian pilots and PAF pilots made a difference cant remember exact number but it was almost 6:1 ratio.
it was more due to the russian training.

i can assure you PAF in terms of training is way ahead than IAF and in professionalism way ahead than our army as well.
here is a link from PAF’s site http://www.paf.gov.pk/Tofficer.htm countries mentioned arent small countries.
furthermore PAF hiring criteria is very strict and rejection rate higher, they are first choice but brightest of brights are accepted atleast that i personally know that.
they have even now few women GDP pilots as well and are growing and this can give you an idea about organizational culture.
this should give you an idea about PAFs pilots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgo7LKvnmk

now coming to for how long:
first we(india-pak) wont be sort of in this state for longer term in my opinion it is almost as suicidle even if we remove nuclear side.

secondly pakistan doesnt need to win a decisively in war just keeping minimal deterance would be enough due to our proximity, and also atleast for next 10 years if we still remain in similar state india can not have a decisive victory.

india can hit pakistan harder but pakistan would be able to reply in one way or other and india would have more to loose in real terms it has more on stake than pakistan.

60

today is weekend and i can do some more browsing :slight_smile: .

here is another article although there are shreds of doubts but can be handy for casual comparisons or for more information.

Grande Strategy: Limited & Superficial Comparison of Air Assets of the PAF & IAF