Br. Teaser, I agree and I have no objection of Muhammad SAW name being next to Allah SWT in the Shahada. Just looking for the origin of the Shahada. If you are Pakistani, you will know that we have 6 kalimas, that is what we are taught but what is the basis of them and what is the status of them? Does the Shahada make you a muslim? For someone converting to Islam, it is a requiremtn that he pronounce Shahada. For many of us born as muslims, did we ever have to go through this requirement to prove we are muslims. We generally know it and learn it for Salah. Have we ever had to stress of saying the Shahada publicly to prove ourselves muslims in our muslim-born society?
As a matter of fact I think it is good. It makes a person feel obliged to the fact that he is a muslim.
Yes brother I am from Pakistan (fortunately :)) and yes I had to learn 6 kalimas and other good stuff that are being taught there.
I only wanted to post and state that these are very sensitive issues and one should really be careful dealing with these issues. Posting here means there are chances that quite a lot of people will get to read it and you never know if it might mislead someone. As Alama Iqbal said “Yeah Mamaly Hain Nazuk Jo Terri Raza Ho Who Tu Kar”.
From what I have learned and with my limited knowledge all I know for a non-muslim to accept or enter into Islam he/she has to say the shahada and not just say it but to accept it from the core of his/her heart plus implement it in his/her life. What really is shahada? Basically acknowledging that there is only 1 Allah :swt: and Mohammad :saw: is His last messenger. If the person do not believe in Mohammad :saw: as being last prophet than I don’t think he/she is fully converted to Islam.
I think we as born Muslims have to go through something similar. From what I know that when a baby is born in a Muslim family the father or head of household has to say Azan in the right ear and Iqama in the left ear. Again this could also be a product of subcontinent but than whats wrong with it? We are not committing shirk by doing this nor we are doing something against Islam or something that would lead to shirk? Infect I think its a good thing so if it pleases you, than do it otherwise don’t do it and don’t force upon others. Simple.
It should not be forced upon as is the case in Pakistan such as 6 kalimas and addition of nafals in Magrib and Isha prayer and so on.
Of course, people who have no brains use dancing cows as their avatars. They also try to act intelligent by saying things such as “A lot of questions from Quran only and other types of people are very valid questions and have gone unanswered, which is why you see them sitting in another camp.”
Please do tell what this other camp is? What other not so “valid” questions do you have in your pin head? As far as the relevency(sp?) of the verses I quoted is concerned, it shows the importance of Muhammad:saw:. It clearly states that if you were to be disrespectful of Muhammad :saw:, all of your deeds will amount to nothing. So go ahead and question why we should call him “muhammad -ur- rasool Allah”. Maybe you want to look at the following as well:
033.040 مَا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِنْ رِجَالِكُمْ وَلَكِنْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا
033.040 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
Al-Qur’an, 033.040 (Al-Ahzab [The Clans, the Coalition, the Combined Forces])
I have highlighted the text so even a knucklehead like you can see it, bright as the daylight.
Actually Teaser, I had emphasized the same thing once before on this forum and said that such issues should be carefully handled so readers with weak faith are not given to folly than success. Thank you for reminding me of that. I will not debate it further since a lot of people may may not be on the same page of understanding or religious tolerance as I am. Not saying that I am some scholar but I think you have seen me debating and discussing before and I like intellectual and logical discussions and once I’m really involved its hard to push me away from something. A discussion about this might cast unnecessary aspersions, which is not my intent.
I will treasure this encounter with a duffer such as you dearly. You never understood what I was saying to begin with. I never objected Muhammad SAW being the messenger of Allah SWT. So keep smoking whatever it is you are smoking. Alleluia … Ma assalama
Kaleem, you have lost what we wanted in t his thread. Well there is only one ahadith of Abu Hurayra, of the Shahda and nothing else.
Well kaleem, mind your tongue, i havent seen USR before this way, he is one of the respected guppies around here. So, its better you respect each and everyone hear and try to concentrate on the thread.
How did people became Muslims at the time when Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was alive? What did they proclaim?
I am sure there is more than one hadith out there on this issue... I am sure in 1400 years, someone thought about this issue, so we just need to do little bit of digging for true information if we are sincere with our intentions here.
Yes Jaan Leva this is what I want and then confirm it with the Quran, see I tell you the truth I have been looking for some stuff and then landed to this website www.free-*****.org. Well I dont wont to give the name h ere. A clear cut Quran aloners website.
Well, I know there is only one Hadith of Abu Hurayra regarding the Shahada. Well, that website is run by some non-muslims, well everyone is spoken and provided there views but we havent achieved the right goal.
Because, for 1400 years and I have mentioned your point already its just a repetition and its a common question which hits the mind.
SlaveofAllaah, I am not sure if you take this forum as a resource of well knowledgeable Ulema where one can find all the answers to their questions in the light of Quran and Sunnah. If your intension is really to seek the truth brother I think you have to do some hard work by getting up and finding some well known scholar to consult with instead of posting on some forums to find out the truth.
Well kaleem, mind your tongue, i havent seen USR before this way, he is one of the respected guppies around here. So, its better you respect each and everyone hear and try to concentrate on the thread.
JAK for the compliment Br. I will contradict you on one thing here though. Shahada is not in one hadith by Abu Hurairah though. This is reported by way of Ibn Umar as well. Here is the hadith from Bukhari in the Book of Faith:
Hadith 7
Allah's Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles): **
*1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. *
*2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. *
*3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) . *
*4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) *5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.**
*Allah's Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles): *
bhaijaan.. this hadith sounds like it's so definite.. I can cite many other hadiths which give you several other variations of 'five pillars'.. some have 'war booty' in them, some don't include fasting, some have prohibitions for some household utensils... needless to say.. it's all just storetelling and fabrications.. no consistencies.. no reliability WHATSOEVER.
and if u insist on proving 'shahadah' by hadiths... then chew on this:
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 223: * Narrated Al-Musaiyab:
When Abu Talib was in his death bed, the Prophet went to him while Abu Jahl was sitting beside him. The Prophet said, "O my uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, an expression I will defend your case with, before Allah." ........
Tell me (if we're to believe in these stories) if the correct shahadah also needs to testify for the Prophet's prophethood too, why didn't the Prophet himself instruct his uncle to do so?
PA, that is a valid point, but let me ask you this. For you to believe in Quran, you have to believe that the messenger (Muhammad :saw:) is indeed Allah’s rasool. There is no way around it.
Kaleem bhaijaan what has this got to do with the topic under discussion? Of course the Prophet was Allah’s messenger. Of course my religion is Islam.. Of course i believe in all messengers and angels etc etc etc.. but reciting all the verses of the Qur’an isn’t a ‘proclamation’ of faith is it?
We’re trying to come up with the concise statement that verbally establishes one’s belief in Islam.. The Qur’an has the examples that establish it.. but we find Muslims today on a deviant path based on these fabricated stories they love to uphold over the Qur’an..
I understand what you are saying, however, i think there is a disconnect here.
If I were to ask you what is the concise statement that establishes you as a muslim.
Would you say that it is just “La Ilaha il-Allah”. Do you believe that it is sufficient? or do you think one should add the part of “Muhammad-ur-rasool Allah”.
It is true that you will not find the whole combination in one place in Quran. There can be many reasons for it, not the least of which is that Allah addresses Prophet Muhammad :saw: by his name only three or four times in quran. HE has mostly addressed him with his “laqabs” or other names.
Now if you believe that Muhammad :saw: is ineed Allah’s rasool, why do you think it is so bothersome to say it?
because I don’t want to deviate from the path as shown to me by Allah.. that’s why. From the beginnning till the end of time, believers were all Muslim.. so adding the names of messengers du jour isn’t right. Proclaiming your belief in Allah is enough. That’s faith.. if you start adding messengers, then why stop at one? add your belief in all of them.. and angels and so forth ..
I'd say people should ask theemself first if they are living their life in the light of Quran or what ever Quran instructs them. When I say in the light of Quran I mean to say every single thing of your daily life, every minute, every second of your daily life. If not than don't pick and chose on things to reject and accept.
Mere Bache, this is not the article from this website and I dont consider these guys as following the right Islam, though i dont wont to say they are non-muslims. But I know the website is from non-muslims the one i m referring to. :hoonh:
What you say is right, well I am here coz of the multiple views i get on one topic and how this can be tackled in the future. At times it does deviate in forum but with the right people around we can still manage to get good info.
Thanks for you suggestion.
I feel this is common sense. All way we say we follow the Quran as the PRophet follows it and is mentioned in the Quran simple as that. Well, many verses Allaah is mentioned this.
I can quote 2 as of now 3.:31 and 4:59, i hope it say the autority is given to Allaah and the PRophet.
