Guys tell me..
if u are living in a territory, where enemy has invaded, and captured all ur fields, farms and houses.
taken away your right to live freely, and massacre ur family.
world is with ur enemy, taking no steps to revive ur homes, and homeland.
your enemy kills ur childrens, buldoze ur houes, and you just can see it.
with no arms, no weapons to respond, and react agaisnt it.
even agitation gets sprayed by enemey of bullets…
this situation goes on for many years…
your father or mother or sibling killed by ur enemy for doing nothing..
**
then just answer me, what would u do ? would u just sit back, and watch all the fkers doing the peace process. dicusss the peace process bullshit with ur enemmy??
no my dear no.. I strongly support what palestenians are doing now..This is the only and last action they could have taken.
TIT for TAT policy is the policy which should be adapted against the enemy like ISRAEL.
For all those represetetives of PEACE, humanity, and human rights should first stop the israels offfensive, if not privide Palestenisns with arms. and then it should be a FULL WAR.
MAY ALLAH GUIDE US ALL. AND FORGIVE the suicide bombers, and give them place in the JANNAH. because for them, there was no other OPTION like us sitting and enjoying like cowards..
As I have expressed it many times before that worse than the situations you mentioned above have been forced of people throughout history. And there are many different ways people have retaliated to such atrocities.
But we as Muslims should always follow the traditions of the Holy Prophet (saw)!
*The early converts to Islam, and 13 years of AnHazoor (saw) in Mecca were far worse than what people of Palestine are going through today. But great was he (saw) and his followers (ra) that they never user violence (such as suicide bombing) as a mean to retaliate. *
Actually it was the Pagans of Mecca who would 'sneak attack' the Muslims. They would torture them where ever they would find them, if found alone on the deserted roads would murder them.. But the message of our beloved AnHazoor (saw) was of PEACE & PEACE ALONE!
Do you want me to narrate to you the history of Sulah-e-Hudabiya?
So, the suicide bombers can retaliate however they so wish but they have no right to justify it in the name of Islam.
Islam is not a pacifist religion by any stretch. It asks to arm ourselves to defend ourselves. Israel is an army camp where people are trained to oppress other people. In this war, its useless to search for moral grounds. If any then the prime movers of this war are the israelites.
I do not "support" suicide bombing. I just know and say forcefully that Palestinains are doing whatever they have to do inorder to throw off the yoke of the ir opressors specially in light when they dont see any one coming to their rescue. In this regard both Palestinains and kashmiris are similar.
Yes, the modern interpretations of Islam have been certainly inclined towards violence.
The 'wars' in Islam were those where armies fought armies, in the battle ground, face to face. It was Maccans who used the psychology of violence and torture, not Muslims.
There is difference between terrorism and War. Those who strap themselves with bombs and get into an enemy tank full of enemy soldiers are themselves soldiers fighting for their nation. Those who blow up a cafe full of civilians are terrorists.
Modern interpratations?
Id like the date of that modern period. Palestinains blowing themselves up is one way to interpret retaliation since the Israelis like the US bombs in afghanitan and Iraqw dont discriminate bet ween civilian and soldiers, so the palestinains viewpoint is that the state of Israel is a whole army camp, where every man and woman is taught how to kill in the name of Israel at the expense of innocent people.
The wars in Islam didnt have drones and bunker busting bombs being dropped on them from a place far far away. This is what Taliban were thinking to fight like traditional Islamic armies.
Terrorism and terrorist is a value neutral world like communist, dictator etc.. A dictator can be benign too.
A terrorist can be of a just cause too. Dont forget the leaders of this state themsleves were once terrorist.
[quote]
Originally posted by Sultan Toora:
*so the palestinains viewpoint is that the state of Israel is a whole army camp, where every man and woman is taught how to kill in the name of Israel at the expense of innocent people.
*
[/quote]
And I disagree with this view point. As the actions of the governments not necessarily reflect the desire of its people.
I don't give the right to a Bengali to come kill me during the 70s just because I belong to a nation, who's leaders inflicted terror on them. Nor do I agree with those who killed 6000 people in WTC because they do no agree with the policies of US.
As far as World leaders as terrorist is concerned, by all means there were many, there are many and there will be! There is very little difference in the ideologies of Abu Lahab, Abu Jahal, Hitler, Stalin, Sharon, Mussolini or even the war lords of today weather they reside in Africa or in Afghanistan.
And lastly, the modern interpretation in my views started in the later part of 9th century. If you want an example of more recent years, then read the interpretation of Modudi.
p.s: My above comments will bound to open a whole can of worms. I would request people to open different threads if they have comments/questions not related to the topic here :)
My question goes for all ppl , who are not in support for Suicide Bombing..
what is the solution in ur mind??
what should palestentians do ??
wait for zenni, powell, and other ppl to come and meet with sheron, and arafat ? and leave without doing anything , like they before?
you cannot count on arab countries, do u ?
Saudia arab, cannot do any thing, we know, America has his military bases in saudia arab, and he can verily blackmail and supress saudia arab.
UAE is nothing.. just free trade place.
IRAQ is the target of America, voice of Iraq dosnt stand any where..
IRAN ? do u think that anyone would listen to IRAN ??
what else ?
TURKEY ?? turkey is also ruled by a miliatary government, who has influence of JEws..
Egypt : noo.. i dont think egupt will play any role..
Syria : ? i guess they are afrid enough to do any thing
Lebenon : they wont reach, unless untill israel opens any attack on them..
so ? what option do palestenians have?
they have been protesting, making pacts, trying to resolve the issue for many years. with all the peace process..
?????
**
an answer or alternative is requiered not criticism...**
One thing I would like to know is how do people justify the tolerant, peaceful actions of the Sahabah (ra) and AnHazoor (saw), when they were tortured, driven out of their homes, killed, and Muslim women insulted, raped and murdered?
They sure had the option to retaliate, then why they didn't?
The incident of Ta'iaf comes to my mind!
AnHazoor (saw) went to the valley with the message of God! An unarmed man, preaching oneness of God, calling people to righteousness, the message to help the poor, feed the orphans, take care of your parents ... and yet he was driven out, humiliated, stoned to a point where his shoes got filled with blood!
How did he retaliate? Didn't he understand the teaching of 'arm yourself & defend'?
Those who don't know about the incident, it is narrated the Hazrat Jibraeel (as) came to AnHazoor (saw) and asked if he approves, the two mountains of Ta'iaf be crushed together killing all its inhabitants. But great was our prophet (saw) when he disregarded the option and prayed for the people of Ta'iaf that maybe one day their children will hear his message.
It was his endless sacrifice that professed Islam, not the wars with sword.
Thats cool, then the action of PLO terroist as Israel charges dont necessarily show the desire of the palestinians. And the policy of the hitler and his Nazis didnt necessarily show the will of the people, or the bombing of perl harbour didnt necessarily show the desire of the people and so on.
And that bengali doesnot give the right to your govt. to come and kill him or his family. So if you think its wronggo and protest against your government and so should the Israelites.
Those who killed 3000 people in WTC were wrong, just like US support of Israel is wrong and US propaganda and bombing in afghanistan is wrong. All are wrong.
Hitler, Stalin, Mosulini were not errorists b4 they took control of power. Sharon was a terroist b4 he became a PM.
9th century? Im sure you meant 19th century. There are no new revisions in the interpretattion of the Quran. Quran is there, people have interpratted it since the dawn of history. Ive read maudoodi. And to me as to most muslims he is one the greatest muslim scholars of the 20th century.
One doesnt have to agree with every single thing a scholar says to appreciate his works.
Ahmad so are u suggesting that Palestentians should do nothing, sit, relax . vacate their houses, migrate to neighbouring countries and ask the Allah almighty to help them ??
isnt the same going on for long time ? isnt this enough , and one should do something else if the other solution is not working out, and ALLAH not helping u ?
Israeli government and people like Sharon capitalize on the suicide bombers and in response kill 10 times the number of Palestinians. Not only that they keep on demolishing homes and building their illegal settlements. So, these bombing are certainly not helping the Palestinian people but actually giving more excuses to the Zionists.
And the peace plan of the prince of Saudi Arabia is not new. It has been proposed before. This is the first time its coming from a vocal voice in the Arab world, the Saudi Arabia.
[quote]
Originally posted by FlameZz:
*Ahmad so are u suggesting that Palestentians should do nothing, sit, relax . vacate their houses, migrate to neighbouring countries and ask the Allah almighty to help them ??
*
[/quote]
No, I only argue that retaliations like 'suicide bombing' should not be justified in the name of Islam.
You have to understand that its a political situation, not a religious one. And there are no black and white solutions in the political world.
Well you are in the war zone ( like palestie ) and the frustration has reach to a certain limit ( the boiling point ) you dont expect sensible decesions from the ppl..
and indeed enough dicussion has been done on the saudia arab's peace process in the world affairs forum.
We all know that Sheron, and Israeli authority just want to keep up the offensive, kill more palestentian, occupy more place, and create settelment.
and indeed they can use any excuse for that. this suicide bomding has just started within last year. before they already had many other excuses my dear AHMAd..
I think ppl who loose thier siblings or close relatives unjustly can understand and empathize the miserable feelings of palestinians!
And make clear that its a struggle for land and existence not for religion.
When intellectual muslims can't do anything they come up with ideas as Ahmad jee. We have to admit that we have become impotent in a larger extent, whether of our leaders or else!
Sheikh saadi said that even a cornered cat fights back and attacks for its survival and yet we r humans full of passions.
Hey whats all this.
Who says that Islam is a religion. Islam is a Din , i.e. a complete code of life!!
There is no such thing as religion situation and** political situation**.
All the spheres of our life, Muslims’ life, must be regulated by Islam and only Islam. Even when we go to the toilet it must be according to Islam.
Then how come you resolve such a great Palestine issue according to your own minds. If this is to be resolved it must be according to Islam otherwise it will bring no results.
And Secondly, whats the solution for this.
Its absolutely crystal clear!!!
The solution is “Khilafah”, a true Islamic state. All these fitnas (like palestine, Kashmir, Chechnia,etc., etc.) have appeared because we have lost Khilafah and there is no Khilafah anywhere in the world. Once the Khilafah is regained, it will look after all the maslas of the world. If a true Islamic State (Khilafah) is established, then no one will dare look at the Muslims in any corner of the world!!!
The Khilafah will then send armies to such places where Muslims are opressed just as Muhammad Bin Qasim was sent by The Islamic State to rescue the Muslims in Sindh!!!
This is the only solution given by Islam!!
Nothing can be done without a true Islamic State. And this Ayah of The Quran supports this solution:
“And those who disbelieve are allies to one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively)do not do so(i.e. become allies, as one united block with one Khalifah - chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world tomake victorious Allah’s Religion of Islamic Monotheism), there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism, etc.) and oppression on earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism).”
Surah-Al-Anfal, Verse 73
Three other translations of same ayah are given below:
008.073
YUSUFALI: The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another: Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief.
PICKTHAL: And those who disbelieve are protectors one of another - If ye do not so, there will be confusion in the land, and great corruption.
SHAKIR: And (as for) those who disbelieve, some of them are the guardians of others; if you will not do it, there will be in the land persecution and great mischief.
So theres only one solution “Be united under one Khalifah and cater all the problems”
Once Khilafah is established anywhere in the world, all the Muslim states will merge into it and then we will see all these Israelis, etc.
**So what should we do?
1.** We should work for the establishment of **Khilafah **(true Islamic State) and this Khilafah is the biggest threat to these enemies of Islam. 2. We should not take part in violence because we should look to the seerat of Prophet (SAW). Once in the Makki age (when Muslims were in same conditions as now in Palestine, Kashmir, etc)Hazrat Umar took out his sword and asked Prophet (SAW) that may I kill all the Mushrik leaders so that all Fitnah is brought to an end. Prophet (SAW) answered that we are not allowed to do so. (Aw kama qala Rasulullah-e-Sallallah-o-Alaih-e-Wasallam).
Many groups of Muslims are working for establishment of Khilafah, the only solution given by Islam and followed by the Prophet (SAW). OK think for yourself how much have you done for the establishment of Khilafah?
Me? Well I am doing well!( Alhumdulillah)
Because this is such an important issue, I have opened a new string in religion section with the subject “Khilafah (true Islamic State):The real solution for palestine, Kashmir,etc!!!”. Please post comments there!!Click below to go there. http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004786.html
[This message has been edited by SkillJaan (edited April 08, 2002).]
I would absoloutley support suicide bombers if they target someone who is part of the war and not innocent kids who are in high school or sitting in a reataurant.
I would love to share with you my thoughts on what can be one solution for Palestine. But first you have to tell me what you want to fight for?
a) No Israel or Jews in the Middle East?
b) No Jewish State
c) Palestinian state according to the Oslo accords (the map you mostly see) with any other Jewish settlement since then be revoked.
d) Your own maps for the Palestinian people.
The problem is much more complicated than what most people can comprehend. As I can assure you that the Palestinians fighting for a separate state for Palestine are confused about the above.
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited April 06, 2002).]
Peace should be given a chance. Palestinians should understand that even though they are justified in be realy really pissed of, that suicide bombings will not get them anywhere. This is a situation in which somone has to swallow his pride and accept the ground realities. Palestinians have to understand that the best thing for them to do is to accept they have lost and take whatever they can get. Once they have gotten a seperate nation, then it will be up to the ummah to support this palestinian state and make it viable. Its simply a case of Living to fight another day. The way they are going, there wont be any Palestinians left to populate a independant Palestinian State.
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
*Peace should be given a chance. *
[/quote]
I hope israelites do give peace a chance, it is indeed the palestinains who have swallowed thier pride almost every time. Ask any palestinain or kashmiri leader or common man if they would like to see peace or not.