Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
you are so funny..Imam Hassan (a.s.) was poisened...Imam Hussain (a.s.) was the Imam of the time..if He had accepted to what yazid was doing then there would be no Islam today...dont compare him with his followers today..you know we can even eat po*k to save our life..human life is very important to Allah..i am not even sure why you would not understand the concept of taqiyyah..why wouldnt someone lie to save their life??? its a human life we are talking about
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
and we don't call the three khalifa or bibi aisha kaafir..we think very highly of Prophet's (pbuh&up) Family and we don't like some of the things that happend to His Family after His death
Re: I have accepted Shiaism…
[quote=Lajawab]
…
I can say the samething about AbuTalib(ra)
True …but that ayat sent confirmed her innocence for a particular accusation and NO muslim can ever lay that charge against her
However she is also mentioned a second time in the Quran and I guess there is no need to quote that ayat here proves that she was not beyond reproach
…
They are not adding things to it just safeguarding the sunnah from deletions and additions the “bidah” …roughly as the Mujadids do
Again who told you this was the sunnah of the Prophet(pbuh)? …the Imams according to the shias
[quote]
taqqiyah,tabarra,mutah etc are not the fundamentals of shia creed this is a misconception their fundamentals are the same as sunnis and the exception of Imamate and the Imams have always stressed the need for Salat,fasting ,Zakat, Hajj much more than anything else
You dissaciate from them because of what they did AFTER the death of the Prophet(pbuh) as per the shia version of history
Again Taqqiyah never was universally practiced by shias so many shias died for their belief following the examples of the Imams
being a follower of Ahl-e-bait and Imams is meaningless if you dont follow the Quran and sunnah
btw I suggest sincerely that you first read shia history before asking these questions most of them will be answered automatically
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
das reich bro..that was an awesome, to the point post..thank you
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
If a grade 1 kid came up to you and asked you about the theory of relativity what would your response be??
If you are truly interested in learning about shiaism, then first try to understand the basic difference betweens sunnis and shias and take it a step at a time. Maatam, Taqiyyah, Tabarra are extremly hard to comprehend for someone who don't even have the basic understanding of shiaism.
I suggest you try to understand what Imam and Imamat is before you question their actions.
As a starting point I suggest you start of with why shias beleive in Khilafat being the right of Hazrat Ali and not the other three khalifa's as sunni beleive.
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
lajawaab bhai, the only people who can call themselves the ahle bait are the imams. you, your grandmother, and khomeni are NOT part of the ahle bait.
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
why cant we be Muslims. I mean why do've have to be shia muslim or sunni muslim?
Re: I have accepted Shiaism…
and at that very point u will realize that while the Prophet (saw) spoke always of lineage not being impoertant but a person’s own characteristics that make him high and low in Islam, here we have a version of Islam where it shows that he himself wanted all sorts of worldly and spiritual leadership for only his own family and no one else to have right over it, no matter how good anyone else is…
P.S. no one says that Ali (ra) deserved the khilafat cuz he was very good, its just cuz he was from his family…
and then u remember the urdu saying "doosron ko naseehat or khud… " and u bang ur head on the wall and say “why did i even bother to try to accept this thing as true”…
Re: I have accepted Shiaism…
That is exactly what shias say. If you had even a vague idea of shia beliefs then you would know that shia’s consider Hazrat Ali to be infallible and hence superior to all other ashabs including your other three khalifas, therefore “doosro ko nasheeat” saying doesn’t apply here as it just happens that the most suitable person for the khilafat happen to be a relative.
This is exactly what shias believe that the basis of khilafat should be character and how can people be judge of chracter, therefore khilafat of rasool, (like the khilafat of previous prophets as stated in quran) should be decided not by ijmaa, or shoora or saqifa, but rather by God and since God (through Rasool Allah) appointed Hazrat Ali as the rightfull caliph, the fact that he happend to be family of Rasool is irrelevant.
There are ahadiths among sunnis that khilafat could only be among quraish (slogan of some ashabs right after rasool Allah’s wafat) is in direct conflict with the teachings of Islam.
Here is what was said in saqifa from sunni books.
“Umar said: When I saw that they wanted to cut us from our root and wrest authority from us, I wanted to make a speech, which I had composed in my mind. As I used to treat Abu Bakr with gentle courtesy to some extent and considered him more sober and gentler than me I conferred with him about the speech. When I wanted to speak he said gently so I did not like to disobey him…He said 'Now then: O men of the Ansar, you deserve all the fine qualities that you have mentioned about yourselves, but the Quraysh, for they represent the best in lineage and standing. I am pleased to offer you one of these two men; render your oath of allegiance to any one of them you like. Thus saying he took hold of my hand and that of Abu Ubaydah b. al-Jarrah”.
](http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/saqifa/tarikh_altabari_v9_p193.jpg) The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193, English translation by Ismail Poonawalla
Poonawalla, the translator of this edition of al-Tabari then adds a further segment of the speech of Hadhrath Abu Bakr to the Ansar, under footnote 1343:
"Baladhuri, Ansab 1, 582, cites the speech of Abu Bakr which shows how he argued against the Ansar. He states: “We are the first people to accept Islam. We are in the Center among the Muslims with respect to our position, and we are the noblest with respect to our lineage, and we are the nearest to the Messenger of God in relationship. You are our brethren in Islam and our partners in religion…The Arabs will not submit themselves except to this clan of Quraysh…You had not better compete with your Muhajirun brethren for what God has decreed for them”.
](http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/saqifa/tarikh_altabari_v9_p193.jpg) The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193, footnote 1343, English translation by Ismail Poonawalla
In extolling the virtues of the Muhajireen, Hadhrath Abu Bakr also said that they were:
“the first on earth to worship Allah and were the patrons and the clan of the Prophet who tolerated and suffered with him and adversities and injuries inflicted upon them by their own folk who disbelieved them and all other people opposed them and alienated them”.
](http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/saqifa/political_system_of_islamic.jpg)Tarikh al Tabari Vol 3, p 219 quoted from ‘On the political system of the Islamic State’ by Muhammad S. El-Awa, p 30
Halabi further expands on Hadhrath Abu Bakrs’ words:
“We are the relatives of the Apostle…and therefore we are the people who are entitled to the caliphate…It will be advisable to have the leadership among us and for you to be the Viziers”.
Sirah, by al Halabi,Volume 3 page 357
Now do you see which sect beleives in importance of lineage and which one beleives in importance of character??
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
another thing is that Abdullah ibn abbas(ra) , Fadi ibn Abbas(ra) and other relatives of the Prophet(pbuh) never claimed the caliphate for themselves rather they supported Ali(as) so it is not kinship alone but superior merit
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
Here is a haidth from one of the sahih books
"The Islamic religion will continue, until the hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by 12 Caliphs, all of them being from Quraish"
Sahih Muslim, hadith number 4483,
Another source
"The religion will continue to be established till the hour comes as there are twelve Caliphs over them, everyone of them coming from the Quraish".
Mishkat al Masabih: (Vol 4 p 576), Hadith 5
FYI: These are sunni books, not shia books.
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
^ abu bakr (ra), umar (ra), uthman (ra), ali (ra) were all from Quraysh....
umayyads were also from Quraysh and so were the abbasids....
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
I really don't look into the differences between shia and sunnis, as there are more similarities i assume than the differences.
I believe we have a bigger evil to fight than the "sunni evil" or the "shia evil".
Its important to set aside our differences, and focus on the fundamental beliefs, that are present amongst us.
However, I do want the shia brothers to understand that we do derive our islam-way of life from the Sunnah.
No one can say that the Ahle-Bait did not practice Sunnah, they did. They're dear to us as they are to the Shias.
However when it comes to the sahabas, it would be stupid to say anything against them.
For example, we can accept that the Prophet pbuh had knowledge of what was to come, what was the happen of the Ummah.
Taking that into account, Why would the Prophet pbuh choose his companions who he would know will go against him?
Why would he escape last with Abu Bakr r.a. ? to Medina?
Obviously he had knowledge of certain things to come, and yet he would still choose his companions to be Abu Bakr r.a. Umar R.a. and such?
It makes no sense.
Here are some hadiths from Sunni sources regarding the *Khulafaa-e-rashideen. *
Khilafah of Abu Bakr r.a.
QURANIC VERSES
"If you do not help the Messenger, Allah has helped him already at the time when the unbelievers had expelled him, the second of the two when both of them were in the cave, and he was saying to his companion: "do not grieve, surely Allah is with us." Allah then sent down His assurance to thim and helped him with forces which you did not see and He abased the word of the unbelievers. And the word of Allah is always supreme. And Allah is powerful, wise" (9:40)
"He who fears Allah the most shall be kept away from it. Who gives his wealth in order to purify his heart." (92: 17-18)
*The commentators are unanimous that these verses were revealed with regard to Abu Bakr r.a. when he spent his wealth for the cause of Allah swt and purchased and freed seven slaves, one after another, who were being prosecuted for having embraced islam. *
"Let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give any help to their kinsmen..." (Surah Nur, verse 22).
*The commentators are unanimous that this verse was revealed with regard to Abu Bakr r.a. when Aishah r.a. was accused of adultery and Quranic verses attesting to her purity and innocence were revealed. A person by the name of Mistah r.a. who was a relative of Abu Bakr r.a. was also involved in this accusation against Aisha r.a. When Abu Bakr r.a. heard of this he stopped supporting Mistah r.a. financially. After this the verse was revealed, Abu Bakr r.a. resumed helping and assisting him. In this verse, Allah swt refers to Abu Bakr r.a. as a person who is "blessed with graces". *
HADITHS
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "THe one who has been most kind to me with his companionship and wealth is Abu Bakr. Were I to take a close friend apart from Allah, I would have taken Abu Bakr as my close friend. However, there is the brotherhood and love of Islam with him. No window apart from the window of Abu bakr should be left in the mosque."
(Bukhari and Muslim)
This Hadith is a portion of a lengthy sermon which Rasulullah saw delivered five days before his demise. In his Book TARIKHUL KHULAFA, Allamah Suyuti Rahmatulllahi alayh has stated that this hadith is mutawair in meaning. This is because the following Sahabah r.a. narrated it : Ibn Abbas r.a. , Ib Zubayr r.a. , Ib Mas'ud r.a. , Jundub ibn Abdillah r.a. , Bara ibn Azib r.a. , Ka'b ibn Malik r.a. Jabir ibn Abdillah r.a. , Anas ibn Malik r.a. Abu Waqid laythi r.a. Abul Ma'alli r.a. , Aisha r.a., Abu Hurayrah r.a., Ibn Umar r.a.
Amer ibn Al-As r.a. narrates that the Prophet saw sent him as a commander for the battle of Dhatus Salasil. He says " I went to him [Rasulullah saw] and asked him: 'Who is the most beloved to you?' He replied: "Aishah." I asked: 'And from the men?" He replied: "her Father' (Abu Bakr).
(Bukhari and Muslim)
Anas ibn Malik r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "Abu Bakr is the most merciful of my ummah *upon my *ummah."
(Tirmidhi)
Abdullah ibn Umar r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said to Abu Bakr r.a.: "You remained with me in the cave. You will also be with me by the haud al-kawthar (the fountain of abundance on the day of resurrection).
(Tirmidhi)
Aisha r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "The group in which Abu Bakr is, it is not appropiate for anyone than him to lead them"
(Tirmidhi)
Jubayr ibn Mut'im r.a. narrates that a women came to the Prophet pbuh and spoke to him concerning the certain matter. So he ordered her to come again [some other time]. She said: "what if do not find you?", to which Rasulullah said: "If you do not find me, go to Abu Bakr."
(Bukhari and Muslim, Tirmidhi, ibn Majah)
*HADITHS FROM ALI ib ABi Talib. *
Ali ibn Abi Talib r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "Abu Bakr and Umar are the leaders of the elderly people of paradise except of the Prophets and Messengers." (Tirmidhi)
Ali ibn Abi Talib r.a. says: "The best of this ummah after its Prophet is Abu Bakr and then Umar. (Bukhari)
These are just some Quranic Ayahs and Hadith regarding ONLY Abu Bakr r.a.
And it makes no sense whatsoever to say things against them.
May
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
I really don't look into the differences between shia and sunnis, as there are more similarities i assume than the differences.
I believe we have a bigger evil to fight than the "sunni evil" or the "shia evil".
Its important to set aside our differences, and focus on the fundamental beliefs, that are present amongst us.
However, I do want the shia brothers to understand that we do derive our islam-way of life from the Sunnah.
No one can say that the Ahle-Bait did not practice Sunnah, they did. They're dear to us as they are to the Shias.
However when it comes to the sahabas, it would be stupid to say anything against them.
For example, we can accept that the Prophet pbuh had knowledge of what was to come, what was the happen of the Ummah.
Taking that into account, Why would the Prophet pbuh choose his companions who he would know will go against him?
Why would he escape last with Abu Bakr r.a. ? to Medina?
Obviously he had knowledge of certain things to come, and yet he would still choose his companions to be Abu Bakr r.a. Umar R.a. and such?
It makes no sense.
Here are some hadiths from Sunni sources regarding the *Khulafaa-e-rashideen. *
Khilafah of Abu Bakr r.a.
QURANIC VERSES
"If you do not help the Messenger, Allah has helped him already at the time when the unbelievers had expelled him, the second of the two when both of them were in the cave, and he was saying to his companion: "do not grieve, surely Allah is with us." Allah then sent down His assurance to thim and helped him with forces which you did not see and He abased the word of the unbelievers. And the word of Allah is always supreme. And Allah is powerful, wise" (9:40)
"He who fears Allah the most shall be kept away from it. Who gives his wealth in order to purify his heart." (92: 17-18)
*The commentators are unanimous that these verses were revealed with regard to Abu Bakr r.a. when he spent his wealth for the cause of Allah swt and purchased and freed seven slaves, one after another, who were being prosecuted for having embraced islam. *
"Let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give any help to their kinsmen..." (Surah Nur, verse 22).
*The commentators are unanimous that this verse was revealed with regard to Abu Bakr r.a. when Aishah r.a. was accused of adultery and Quranic verses attesting to her purity and innocence were revealed. A person by the name of Mistah r.a. who was a relative of Abu Bakr r.a. was also involved in this accusation against Aisha r.a. When Abu Bakr r.a. heard of this he stopped supporting Mistah r.a. financially. After this the verse was revealed, Abu Bakr r.a. resumed helping and assisting him. In this verse, Allah swt refers to Abu Bakr r.a. as a person who is "blessed with graces". *
HADITHS
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "THe one who has been most kind to me with his companionship and wealth is Abu Bakr. Were I to take a close friend apart from Allah, I would have taken Abu Bakr as my close friend. However, there is the brotherhood and love of Islam with him. No window apart from the window of Abu bakr should be left in the mosque."
(Bukhari and Muslim)
This Hadith is a portion of a lengthy sermon which Rasulullah saw delivered five days before his demise. In his Book TARIKHUL KHULAFA, Allamah Suyuti Rahmatulllahi alayh has stated that this hadith is mutawair in meaning. This is because the following Sahabah r.a. narrated it : Ibn Abbas r.a. , Ib Zubayr r.a. , Ib Mas'ud r.a. , Jundub ibn Abdillah r.a. , Bara ibn Azib r.a. , Ka'b ibn Malik r.a. Jabir ibn Abdillah r.a. , Anas ibn Malik r.a. Abu Waqid laythi r.a. Abul Ma'alli r.a. , Aisha r.a., Abu Hurayrah r.a., Ibn Umar r.a.
Amer ibn Al-As r.a. narrates that the Prophet saw sent him as a commander for the battle of Dhatus Salasil. He says " I went to him [Rasulullah saw] and asked him: 'Who is the most beloved to you?' He replied: "Aishah." I asked: 'And from the men?" He replied: "her Father' (Abu Bakr).
(Bukhari and Muslim)
Anas ibn Malik r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "Abu Bakr is the most merciful of my ummah *upon my *ummah."
(Tirmidhi)
Abdullah ibn Umar r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said to Abu Bakr r.a.: "You remained with me in the cave. You will also be with me by the haud al-kawthar (the fountain of abundance on the day of resurrection).
(Tirmidhi)
Aisha r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "The group in which Abu Bakr is, it is not appropiate for anyone than him to lead them"
(Tirmidhi)
Jubayr ibn Mut'im r.a. narrates that a women came to the Prophet pbuh and spoke to him concerning the certain matter. So he ordered her to come again [some other time]. She said: "what if do not find you?", to which Rasulullah said: "If you do not find me, go to Abu Bakr."
(Bukhari and Muslim, Tirmidhi, ibn Majah)
*HADITHS FROM ALI ib ABi Talib. *
Ali ibn Abi Talib r.a. narrates that Rasulullah saw said: "Abu Bakr and Umar are the leaders of the elderly people of paradise except of the Prophets and Messengers." (Tirmidhi)
Ali ibn Abi Talib r.a. says: "The best of this ummah after its Prophet is Abu Bakr and then Umar. (Bukhari)
These are just some Quranic Ayahs and Hadith regarding ONLY Abu Bakr r.a.
And it makes no sense whatsoever to say things against them.
May Allah
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
umayyads were also from Quraysh and so were the abbasids....
You yourself stated prophet preached that character is more important than lineage, character is more important then which qabila an individual belongs, but did not bother to consider what standard was set to select the khulafa's.
You accused shias of believing that Propeht preached something else while he himself wanted " all sorts of worldly and spiritual leadership for only his own family and no one else to have right over it, no matter how good anyone else is...." while shia's believe that they deserved it based on their character, it just so happen that the most deserving (based on character) happen to be members of his family.
Can you justify this rule of all khulafa's should be from quraysh, while you yourself believe that character is more important then what qabila you belong to.
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
and then u remember the urdu saying "doosron ko naseehat or khud..... " and u bang ur head on the wall and say "why did i even bother to try to accept this thing as true"....
I agree character is more imp than lineage or anything else shia belief Ali deserve khilafat as he was the best the most suitable for the position, not because of his relationship with the Prophet, on the other hand the selection in Saqifa of the khalifa was based on lineage, based on the qabila you belong to.
Baladhuri, Ansab 1, 582, cites the speech of Abu Bakr which shows how he argued against the Ansar. He states: "We are the first people to accept Islam. We are in the Center among the Muslims with respect to our position, and we are the noblest with respect to our lineage, and we are the nearest to the Messenger of God in relationship. You are our brethren in Islam and our partners in religion...The Arabs will not submit themselves except to this clan of Quraysh...You had not better compete with your Muhajirun brethren for what God has decreed for them".
The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193, footnote 1343, English translation by Ismail Poonawalla
P.S. I quoted other references in my previous posts which are from sunni books.
For some reason you totally ignored the point I was making which is the standard for shias is character and the standard used for selection of Khalifa is lineage, and relationship with prophet.
By stating yourself that all the khalifa's were from qurays, you further proved my point.
Re: I have accepted Shiaism…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1520846322944869515&pl=true
**FORWARD TO THE Q & A !!!
I Suggest everyone listens to this…!!
SHIA AND SUNNIS. BOTH.**
NOTE: TO GET TO THE Q & A, Forward to 18 mins into the video.
I recommend u watch it all tho.
Re: I have accepted Shiaism…
He is good!!! Moulana Ishaq knows what he is talking about..I totally agree with everything he said..Our scholer also say to pray all 5 namaz separately..but say it is OK to to combine them…he sounded very fair
Moulana Ishaq is kool
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
cresent when new wahabis join gupshup later and start declaring shias to be kaafir..u should come and debate with them and show them this video..thanks
Re: I have accepted Shiaism...
^ I second that
