I bear Witness there is no Allah and Muhammad IS his prophet

What the … is going on here…

Arabic language does have tenses. fael mudharay, fael amr, …

Arabic is no weak language. In fact it is one of the richest language of world. It is fact that Arabic is the best language in every regard. Its vocabulary is unmatched with any language.

Salman, … Prophet Muhammad :saw:died. We say that Muhammad :saw: is Allah’s Messenger because, when he died, his Prophethood did not finish. He is although dead but he still is our last Prophet.

Just as we say he is Khatam An Nabiyeen. He is still khatam an nabiyeen.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *

lets start with good examples to support ur statement....
[/QUOTE]

So you have asked me to give examples of (i) un-scientific and (ii) Illogical things in the revealed text.

Ok I try to give one example each while trying to keep my tone positive (i.e. not much strait-forward):

(i) Un-Scientific:

According to revelations:

Universe has been created out of nothing.

According to science; Universe is made up of matter/ energy. Matter/ energy can neither be created nor can be destroyed.

** So it is un-scientific to say that universe has been "created".**

And if you say that God can over-rule science then why you also claim that God's revelations are all scientific. Then you should accept that revelations are "un-scientific" also.

(ii) Illogical Example:

1- According to the revealed text, Hazrat Noah, despite being a prophet was a common human being. i,e. he was not a super natural being.

2- Being an ordinary human, he made such a huge "boat" and then he "loaded" pairs of all the animal species living on the earth.

3- In this modern information age, we know that there live hundereds of thousands or even more of animal species on this earth.

4- We also know that even today, it is impossible for ordinary human beings to built such a huge "boat" and then load pairs of all the living animal species. such a boat cannot be built using the most advanced technology in which you have to load millions of pairs of animal species.

In the light of above mentioned facts, following can be concluded:

1- Despite the claim of revelations, Hazrat Noah was not an ordinary man. He was a supernatural being because he did such a work which was not possible by an ordinary man. (i.e. was possible only by super natural being/s).

2- If Hazrat Noah was a Super natural being, then revelation's claim that he was an ordinary man proves wrong.

3- If Hazrat Noah was an ordinary man and he still built such a huge "boat" and sucessfully loaded all the pairs of animal species then we can conclude that revelations do not talk of the world in which we live. Because ordinary men of this world cannot do these things.

4- If revelations does not talk of the world in which we live then it must be talking of some other world, perhaps an imaginary world. So such teachings which do not talk of this world are not applicable to this world.

5- These teachings are then applicable to only that imaginary world where ordinay man can built such a huge boat or that in that imaginary world number of animal species are so much limited that an ordinary man can "load" pairs of all of them in a single boat.

So above are the illogical (things which are not possible in a real world) aspects of ancient secred teachings.

As long as there is a ‘is’, there will not be another ‘is’…There was only one last Prophet of Allah :swt: and he is Mohammed :saw:…

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *

According to revelations:

Universe has been created out of nothing.

[/QUOTE]

and where did u find this in the revelations????
give references so we can know more precisely what u r talking about....

Quran 21:30
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

perhaps the "millions of species" did nt exist during the time of Noah(as) and he did not actually build such a large boat....
do u know the size of the boat????
do u know how many species boarded it????
or did he really load creatures from all the species on to the boat????
perhaps the flood was limited only to the area that was coevered by the 'nation of Noah" because the others who were not of his nation r not to be punished cuz of thir faults....
so he had to take with him only the species that wud be extinct if the flood covered them all up....
or perhaps he loaded only the animals that were required by them (i.e. horses for a ride, cows for milk, and goats for milk/meat etc etc)....

how can u go to conclusions without going thru all the possibilities....
what sort of scientific method is that????

Regarding Noah and the ark, to the best of my knowledge the Quran, doesnt say that the flood was global.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *

and where did u find this in the revelations????
give references so we can know more precisely what u r talking about....

Quran 21:30
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

perhaps the "millions of species" did nt exist during the time of Noah(as) and he did not actually build such a large boat....
do u know the size of the boat????
do u know how many species boarded it????
or did he really load creatures from all the species on to the boat????
perhaps the flood was limited only to the area that was coevered by the 'nation of Noah" because the others who were not of his nation r not to be punished cuz of thir faults....
so he had to take with him only the species that wud be extinct if the flood covered them all up....
or perhaps he loaded only the animals that were required by them (i.e. horses for a ride, cows for milk, and goats for milk/meat etc etc)....

how can u go to conclusions without going thru all the possibilities....
what sort of scientific method is that????
[/QUOTE]

Quran 21:30
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

So God is not "Al-Khaliq" and is only an "Organizer" of already existed matter/energy.

Now first you have to accept that God is not Al-Khaliq, then I shall quote the reference.

If God is only an Organizer then why his name is Al-Khaliq also. I think you need to update your beliefs in the light of your own quoted verse.

A God who is only an "organizer" of matter/ energy is the BARHAMA of Hinduism. According to Hinduism, Barhama, matter and soul are non-created beings/things. I think India Pakistan are really coming closer. This is a good sign for me and so I must appreciate your attempt that you are proving that God is not the creator. How can he be? It is un-scientific - after all. This is first positive thing I have seen in you.

So I should also be positive (in your response). A God who is not the "creator" but only the "organizer" is understandable to me. As far as only this charactristic of God is concerned, I am ready to accept the possibiliy of exsistence of such a God. But for this you have to remove/omit/cancel the word "khaliq" from your holy text, if it is there .(If word "khaliq" as a charactrstic of God is really not mentioned in holy text then it is all right - you only have to ensure me that this word is not written in your holy text as a charactristic of God.)

perhaps the "millions of species" did nt exist during the time of Noah(as) and he did not actually build such a large boat....

Parhaps Hazrat Noah is only a story hero just like Tarzon. Existence of millions of species of animals even before the time of presence of humans on this earth is a proven scientific fact. Earliest human remains found in the world are 1 million year old. And all the present animal species have been present in this world in still ancient times.

If in the time of Hazrat Noah, the number of species of animals were really much limited Then why and how this number has been increased upto the present level. It should not be so. Because all the present species have to be the children (merely the next generations) of only those species.

Where so many new species have come from:

Are they created after the time of Hazrat Noah.........???

But God is not the creator. And if really created then what was the need to save those few species? God could easily create whole new set of all the species.

Have those few species have been evolved into present day millions of species..........???

So evolution theory is a possibilty. Humans can be an evolved form of apes. And after the time of Noah this evolution process continues and those fewer animal species have been evolved into present day millions of species. Why God has not told us this very important aspect of the story of Hazrat Noah...??? Since God has not told that all the present day species are/ may be different from those which were present in the time of Hazrat Noah, so we are bound to conclude that all the present day animal species are the same which were saved by Hazrat Noah. Since all the present day's animal species are impossible to load on a single "boat" so it was also impossible for Hazrat Noah to load all the animal species of his time in a single boat. Because number of present day's and that time's species have to be same.(Or even present day number of species should be less than that of Hazrat Noah's time because of extinction of so many species in previous centuries)
Because God has not told us clear situation on this issue. All your explanations or only your speculations. Since clear cut situation is not told by God so it has resulted in an ambiguous situation. Why should I believe in ambiguities or on your own speculative explanations.

do u know the size of the boat????

What should be the size of a boat in which you have to load millions of species of animals....???

do u know how many species boarded it????

I have shown previously that all the present day species are only the next generations of those species who were saved by hazrat Noah. Present day species are millions in number so the species that were to be loaded on the boat were also millions in number as per the information provided by the Holy Text.

And if any important information/ clarification in this regard is not mentioned in the Holy Text, then it is not my fault. It is the ambiguity created by that text. And why I believe in ambiguities..?? Why clear cut situation is not mentioned there...?? Why I accept your explanations...???

or did he really load creatures from all the species on to the boat????

If all the creatures were not to load then what was the need to load only a few from all....??? And that few from all must also be millions in number because after all all the present day species are merely the next generations of those which were saved by Hazrat Noah.

perhaps the flood was limited only to the area that was coevered by the 'nation of Noah" because the others who were not of his nation r not to be punished cuz of thir faults....

If flood was limited then there was no need to load the pairs of species. Because No species was in a real threat of extinction in a localized flood. Loading of pairs of species in a localized flood is an irrational thing.

so he had to take with him only the species that wud be extinct if the flood covered them all up....

Yes he had to make a survey of which species is in dangor. Then he has to decide which species to load and which not to load. **Mr. Mughal these important things should have been described in the Holy Text. **Holy text is ambiguous on this issue. I am not going to believe in ambiguities. I am also not going to accept your own self made explanations.

or perhaps he loaded only the animals that were required by them (i.e. horses for a ride, cows for milk, and goats for milk/meat etc etc)....

Then what was the need to load pairs of all of them. Because species then were not in dangor. In this case they could only load "healthy" and "useful" animals whether they were male or female no matter. What was the need to load the "pairs". Flood was only localized. All other species/ animal on other areas were safe.

how can u go to conclusions without going thru all the possibilities....

And why you believe in this ambiguous story without considering the drawbacks associated with it...???
what sort of scientific method is that????

And what sort of your illogical idealogy is.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by the real AK47: *
Regarding Noah and the ark, to the best of my knowledge the Quran, doesnt say that the flood was global.
[/QUOTE]

Yes Holy text do not clearly says that flood was globalized. I also doubt whether the "concept" of "globe" existed in the mind of author of Holy Text or not.

Ok! If the flood was not "globalized" but was "localized", then there was no need to load the "pairs" of all the animal species. Because in a localized flood, no species was in extinction threat. Why "pairs" of animal species were loaded in the boat without any real threat to those species...?? This is not a rational theory.

^^

:salam:

Remember reading about it in Harun Yahya book, where he discusses this. Source

Was the Flood a Local Disaster or was It Global?

Those who deny the reality of Nuh’s Flood, support their stance with the assertion that a worldwide flood is impossible. However, their denial of any flood whatsoever is also directed as an attack on the Qur’an. According to them, all the revealed books including the Qur’an, appear to defend the reality of a worldwide flood and are thus mistaken.

Yet this denial of the Qur’an is not true. The Qur’an was revealed by Allah and is the sole unaltered divine book. The Qur’an looks at the Flood from a very different viewpoint than do the Pentateuch and the other flood legends narrated in various cultures. The Pentateuch, a name for the first five books of the Old Testament, says that the flood was cosmic and that it covered the whole world. Yet the Qur’an does not offer such as assertion, indeed on the contrary, the relevant verses imply that the Flood was regional and did not cover the whole world but only drowned Nuh’s people who had been warned by Nuh and so were punished.
When the Flood narrations of the Old Testament and the Qur’an are examined, this difference is plain. The Old Testament, which has been subject to so many alterations and additions throughout its history that it can truly be said that almost nothing of the original remains, describes how the Flood began as follows;

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD (Genesis, 6:5-8)

However, in the Qur’an, it is clearly shown that it was not the whole world, but only Nuh’s people who were destroyed. Just as Hud was sent only to 'Ad (Surah Hud: 50), Salih was sent to Thamud (Surah Hud: 61) and all the other prophet prior to Muhammad were sent only to their own peoples, Nuh was sent only to his people and the flood caused only Nuh’s people to disappear;

We sent Nuh to his people (with a mission): "I have come to you with a Clear Warning: That ye serve none but Allah: Verily I do fear for you the penalty of a grievous day." (Surah Hud: 25-26)

Those who perished were people who totally disregarded Prophet Nuh’s proclamation of the message and persisted on rebellion. Relevant verses are explicit enough to leave no room for discussion:

But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark: but We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people! (Surat al-Araf: 64)

We saved him and those who adhered to him. By Our mercy, and We cut off the roots of those who rejected Our signs and did not believe. (Surat al-Araf: 72)

Besides, in the Qur’an, Allah remarks that He does not destroy a community unless a messenger has been sent to it. Destruction can only take place if a warner has already arrived among a particular people and the warner is belied. Allah states in Surat al-Qasas;

Nor was thy Lord the one to destroy a population until He had sent to its centre a messenger, rehearsing to them Our Signs; nor are We going to destroy a population except when its members practice iniquity. (Surat al-Qasas: 59)

It is not Allah’s Way to destroy people whom He has not sent any messengers. As a warner, Nuh had been sent only to his people. Therefore, Allah did not destroy the communities who had not been sent a warner, but only Nuh’s people.

From these statements in the Qur’an, we can be certain that Nuh’s flood was a regional disaster, not a cosmic one. The excavations made in the archaeological region where the flood is supposed to have happened - which we will examine here below - show that the flood was not a cosmic event affecting the whole world, but a very broad catastrophe which affected a certain part of Mesopotamia.

Were all the Animals Taken on Board?

The interpreters of the Bible believe that Nuh took all animal species on earth on board the Ark and that animals were saved from extinction thanks to Nuh. According to this belief, a pair of every animals species on earth were brought together and put on board.

Those who defend this assertion doubtless have to face serious difficulties in many respects. The question of how the animal species taken aboard were fed, how they were housed on the Ark, or how they were isolated from each other are impossible to answer. Moreover, the question remains: how were animals from different continents brought together - mammals in the poles, kangaroos in Australia or the bison peculiar to America? Moreover, there follow more questions as to how very dangerous animals - venomous ones like snakes, scorpions and wild animals - were caught and how they could be sustained away from their natural habitats until the flood abated.

These are the questions which the Old Testament faces. In the Qur’an, there is no statement implying that all the animal species on earth were taken on board. As we have noted before, the Flood took place in a certain region. Therefore, the animals taken on board could only have been those living in the region where Nuh’s people resided.

However, it is evident that it is impossible even to collect all the animal species living in that region. It is difficult to think of Nuh and a few number of believers beside him (Surah Hud: 40) going in all directions and setting out to collect two each of hundreds of animal species in their surroundings. It is even more highly improbable for them to have collected specimens of the insect species living in their region, and, moreover, to discriminate the males from the female! This is the reason why it is more probable that the animals collected were those that could easily be caught and sustained, and were, therefore, domestic animals especially useful to man. The prophet Nuh was most likely to have taken on board such animals as cows, sheep, horses, poultry camels and the like, because these were the primary animals that would have been needed for establishing a new life in a region which would have lost a great deal of its livestock because of the Flood.

Here the important point is that the divine wisdom in Allah’s command to Nuh to collect the animals lies in its being directed to the collecting of the animals required for the new life to be established after the flood rather than to protecting the genus of animals. Since the flood was regional, the extinction of animal species could not have been a possibility. It is most likely that after the flood, animals from other regions would have migrated to that area in the course of time, and re-populated the region with its old liveliness. What was important was the life to be established in the region right after the flood, and the animals gathered would have been collected basically for this purpose.

Just another thing, there will be documentary on today called ‘Noahs Ark’ in the UK on BBC 2 at 7pm.

Heres more info about it

Noah’s Ark
Sun 21 Mar, 7:00 pm - 8:00 pm 60mins

Could Noah have built a 500 foot Ark and loaded it with thousands of species? Was there a global deluge or is the whole story a tall tale?

Starring Peter Polycarpou (Birds of a Feather) as Noah, Souad Faress (The Archers) as Noah’s wife, and presented by Jeremy Bowen, the programme uses drama, CGI and scientific detective work to put the great myth to the test.

Remarkable finds from Iraq reveal traces of a catastrophic flood in ancient Mesopotamia. Other versions of Noah’s story also appear in Babylonian clay tablets allowing Bowen to piece together the dramatic story of the real life figure who inspired the Biblical epic.

Bowen himself is transported back to Biblical times to relive Noah’s desperate efforts to build the Ark, load the animals in a week, and survive on the runaway Ark. Could Noah and his family have survived the global warming caused by a flood?
Bowen investigates which animals Noah could have taken with him, and he examines whether remains of the Ark lie buried under the ice cap on Mt Ararat. http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/listings/programme.shtml?day=today&service_id=4223&filename=20040321/20040321_1900_4223_19941_60

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *

Yes Holy text do not clearly says that flood was globalized. I also doubt whether the "concept" of "globe" existed in the mind of author of Holy Text or not.

Ok! If the flood was not "globalized" but was "localized", then there was no need to load the "pairs" of all the animal species. Because in a localized flood, no species was in extinction threat. Why "pairs" of animal species were loaded in the boat without any real threat to those species...?? This is not a rational theory.
[/QUOTE]

whast ur religion . i'm ready to convert..

oh bhayee u seriously need to read Quranwith explanaton .not just the direct traslation ... cuz "english s not an indepth language :) like arabic.

Basic Force, don;t take this personally, but I think people who jumble up logic, science and faith together are idiots…

Faith says for Allah :swt: anything is possible, science limits Allah :swt:'s powers…Science is created by man with the brain that Allah :swt: created…How can it be that a creature like man, which is so limited that it can’t se what is behind him perceive how or what Allah :swt: did or didn’t do?

Perhaps the animals were shrunken, perhaps not all the animal pairs were loaded except a few while the others were in a sort of suspended animation, a statis of sorts or perhaps Allah :swt: created many animals after the flood…Millions of suppositions to millions of questions…

All we know, is that Nuh :as: built a boat, loaded it with all the pairs of animals, and after the flood released them…That is all faith says, and I am not about to be confused by a man-made thing such as science to go around confused…That’s my faith and science can go to hell…

Mr.M,

These are self-made explanations that only Noh's people were to destroy or that only few animals were to board tha ark etc. My point is that quran is not clear on these issues. You have drawn some conclusions on the basis of other quranic verses. It is good. But what if really you are right in all your conclusions..?? Only Noah's ppl were to destroy and only few animals were to save. What is important in that....??? What should I do of this information...?? Is this information is mentioned in the holy text to make me afraid of god...??? Well! but I am not afraid of such things. This story is merely a claim of the holy text. This is not a proved story. Why should I believe in un-proven stories/myths....??? Story is doubtful on so many respects. You ppl are on the defensive side. You ppl are are tring to make one or the other suitable explanation. But it is impossible for you to remove all the doubts. Why should I believe in doubtful things and why you ppl really believe on doubtful things.

You yourself have talked about those ancient clay tables which have been found as archeological evidence from ancient city of Babylonea. The global flood as mentioned in those clay tables is basically an ancient summerian mythological story. This same mythological story was lateron adopted by Jews with "proper" modifications and they mentioned this "modified" story in bible. Later on this biblic story was further modified and improved and then described in your holy text. This is all understandable background of this story.

The story you are supporting with your self-made or derived explanations is not understandable. This cannot happen in a real world. It is also doubtful. I acknowledge that my own explanation in previous paragraph may also be considered doubtful. But I do not believe in that explanation. There can be other better rational explanation. But you believe in your doubtful story.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by akbarkhan: *

whast ur religion . i'm ready to convert..

oh bhayee u seriously need to read Quranwith explanaton .not just the direct traslation ... cuz "english s not an indepth language :) like arabic.
[/QUOTE]

Arabic is the only indepth language...

Who told it to you...???

Perhaps your parents in your childhood. Or the moulvi of your mosque told it to you when you was a child.

You only consider Arabic to be the only indepth language just because you have been edjucated and trained in this way. Had you been born in Hindu Barhaman family then you would be considering Sanskrit to be the only indepth language.

How much arabic you yourself know...???? How much commond you have on other languages...??? How did you concluded that arabic is the only indepth language....?? It cannot even pronounce the word "Pakistan" and it has to say "Bakistan" which is a wrong word.

And I do not need to study quran. There are other more important (and new) things to read.

I do not go after logic, science and faith simultaneously. I exclude faith from this list. I do not need faith. It is all doubtful. No one can be certain on his “faith” and those who claim that they are certain on their “faith” only tell a lie with themself because they cannot prove it.

I am fighting against the view that logic, science and faith have been combined in Islam.

However, yours is a different case. You prefer faith over science/logic. Ok its your right. But I must tell you that by rejecting science/ logic, you are allowing the western nations to take over you. Only faith cannot save you from their invasion. And this already has happened in Afghanistan where (your) faith lost a bettle with science.

The Quran states that death is the biggest curtain that divides the ultimate truth from that which is a momentary truth...The true results of victory lie beyond that curtain, for in the end, it is only you has to pay for your deeds upon the earth...True, science and followers of science may have achived victory in the battle on this side of the divide, but on that side the true victors revel in the bounty which they receive of their Lord for having laid down their lives for Him, a small price for something which all must forsake...

True, faiths can be shaken by victories coming from the Kuffar and his death dealing sciences, but that is the test of faith for the believers, and it is not surprising as the Kuffar were prophesied to be victorious, but in the end, who is the true victor?

Holy Quran has clearly prophesized the Islam would Inshallah prevail over every other religion.

We read in Holy Quran, Surah Taubah:

[QUOTE]
'He it is Who has sent His Messenger, with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over all other religions.'
[/QUOTE]

It is evident from the above verse that Islam would Inshallah be victorious over all other religions even in this world as promised by Allah. It is true that true reward for a Muslim is in the hereafter but Muslims would also be rewarded even in this world.

when you are giving the example of hazrat noah....
do you know, hazrat noah was the prophet of the whole world and the world was limited to the area where hazrat noah nation was.The wotld was not so much larger as it is today.there were not so much population of man or animal at that time.

second thing when the world was small the species of the animals was also limited.its true that noah had saved those pair of animals present at his time.

yes of course god is a creater and he could create the species again.If he ordered noah to carry the species along with him just to maintain the life cycly or food chain, (god knows better why he said) and quran is not only astory book, so it just give you the each and every detail of the story.its a book who shows us the real path and where some stories are present they are just present to give us the summary of what happened at that time.

regrding the point of number of the species at present... i'd like to ask you one thing, don't you know that there were lot of species that we lost today... there are lot of species which has born by the old species as a new species.if you beleive on it why don't you believe about the pair of species saved by noah. why are you arguing about the number of the species saved by him.

we all know that there is a power who is responsible for everything going happen in this world.science also do belief on a hidden power, if its not true then why don't a doctor saves a person's life by his knowledge of science (but says as prey to god he may save the life). if you don't believe then you are lying.
A doctor knows each and every thing about a desease, he also knows what medicine will cause a positive/negative effect to a person who is suffering from a particular desease.then why sometimes an apropriate medicine for aparticular desease do positive reacton on one person and negative to another.

I tell you why, because whatever happens in this world is just happen by the order of god , and in every order of GOD there is a reason that he knows better.He knows better what's good for us and what's bad for us.we don't know about it.if we face something worse that is because of our sins that we committed.

By the way to which religion you follow???

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *

. And this already has happened in Afghanistan where (your) faith lost a bettle with science.
[/QUOTE]

our faith won the battle against science in soviet afghan war . and it'll win this one too.

by the way what are u trying here anyways.. are u trying to change ur faith or just cuz no one listen to ur bs in real world u come hit the puter . start workin out its good for burning fat that covers brain. :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *

How much arabic you yourself know...???? How much commond you have on other languages...??? How did you concluded that arabic is the only indepth language....?? .
[/QUOTE]

i have command over arabic , english , pashto ( my mother language), farsi and urdu .. and i know arabic grammer and i can tell you its deeper and more understandable than ny languages inda world..but thast if only u knew .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
science and followers of science may have achived victory in the battle on this side of the divide, but on that side the true victors revel in the bounty which they receive of their Lord for having laid down their lives for Him, a small price for something which all must forsake...

True, faiths can be shaken by victories coming from the Kuffar and his death dealing sciences, but that is the test of faith for the believers, and it is not surprising as the Kuffar were prophesied to be victorious, but in the end, who is the true victor?
[/QUOTE]

Yes! you will be awarded the victory as a reward of your failure in life. I am not interested in this type of victory.