What are the reasons why some Pakistanis (in Pakistan or freshly out of Pakistan) are more liberal than Pakistanis who were either born/raised abroad or have been living abroad for awhile (say, 10+ years)?
I’m not talking about ameer baap ki bigri hui aulaaden who have gone rogue from early childhood. No, I’m talking about nice, shareef looking fobby guys who come from middle or upper middle class, conservative families.
Two extreme examples that come to mind:
Met this guy who immigrated to Canada less than a year ago. He is from some small town in Pakistan but moved to Karachi for Masters and traveled internationally for a brief time for work. I asked him how he feels about his potential wife wearing western style dresses. He told me, he believed haya aurat ki aankhon main hoti hai so it really doesn’t matter what clothes she is putting on as long as they are stylish for her figure and overall look. Seeing as how all women in his family had a dupatta on their head in all the family pics he had shown me, I was really surprised by his views and asked him to elaborate. He continued by giving me examples of various forms of dresses (short skirts, mini skirts, super mini skirts, low cut dress, or even a bikini) that he deemed appropriate, provided the style suited the wearer. I asked him if he considered himself religious. He said: “yes, I’m not judgmental.”
My family introduced me to this Pakistani/Saudi guy who had come to Canada not too long ago. Both mom and dad were very sophisticated. I had a long chat with his dad about Urdu poetry and literature. His mom told us she used to wear an abaya in Saudia. The guy himself was fluent in Urdu, Arabic and English. Overall impression of the family = suljhay hue log, very much Pakistani!
A few conversations later, I found out that he doesn’t fast and in fact, he has never observed a fast in his life. I had to push him to get an answer. He kept saying, it’s between Allah and him and how it’s personal and I have no business asking him this.
Anyhow, his reason was, he needs to eat every few hours and he eats Big-Mac size meals, so he simply cannot give that up and doesn’t believe it makes him any less of a Muslim. He then proceeded to give me examples of so-called practicing Muslims who fulfill the five pillars but are otherwise bad human beings. He called himself spiritual, not practicing.
My question is, what drives people to such bold views when their home environment/schooling/culture is more on the traditional, conservative side?
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
It’s good you’re asking the questions that matter to you. But everything you’ve described about the parents has little correlation to the answers provided by the sons in question?
In the first example, a picture with dupatta on head isn’t really proof for much. But also, because he’s just so freshly out of Pakistan, he is probably trying hard to convince you he is open-minded and that you don’t have to worry about him being a strict chauvinist.
In the second example, none of the descriptions of him or his parents have any relevance to his views being conservative or otherwise - dress-code or religion wise. He is multi-lingual, good for him. His mom wore an abaya because everyone there pretty much has to, great. Dad knows poetry, and what? If you want to know where men stand in terms of their values in relation to Islamic dress codes, ask and observe other relational facts. Do you pray often? Do you go to the mosque often? Are you involved in the Muslim community? Have you gone for umrah? What was your experience like, etc.
p.s. Good topic; not sure if the title does it justice.
I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
Agreed Madzz, maybe mods can change the title to something else along the lines of “Spirituality vs. Islam.” I thought the thread was something else.
A lecturer mentioned this once about the new generation of kids asking him about being a good person over being a devout Muslim by following the pillars and then engaging in actions that go against basic teachings and general consideration for others.
Don’t have a lot of time to go into details to much but I personally feel that a part of it is people’s interpretations are completely different from one person to the next. I think young people are tired of the “two faced” behavior by many religious individuals in different levels of power as well as regular people in our lives and the bad reputation that has come on Islam by people preaching so passionately about one thing but lacking a basic understanding of humanity and the general good. Meaning they don’t practice what they preach? Maybe. We are reminded so much about praying this and that and respecting our parents and our wives and etc but how often do we hear people harpooning about being a good Muslim as well as a good human being. I don’t get those reminders about simple behaviors like that. Not often enough at least. Things that are relatable to everyday life. Then you see all of the corruption in Islamic communities and sometimes it’s almost hard to defend against somebody who wouldn’t understand. With more bad examples than good, I think people are tired of the corruption. I think this is very a tiny part of this. I know this is how I feel a lot.
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
Agree with S&S..
I also think Pakistanis place a disproportionate emphasis on womens’ clothing and behaviour in general..
There are a LOT of sins which aren’t that uncommon in our culture (eg forced marriages, living with inlaws) yet the ones people seem most bothered concern the way women dress or behave, even if those sins aren’t necessarily hurting other people.. I’m NOT saying they aren’t sins because obviously they are but our attitudes towards them are very skewed imo..
You see girls like that Arab Miss USA, Lilly Ghalichi or even Rita Ora who are all Muslims but don’t get anywhere near the amount of abuse that a Pakistani celeb would.. Look at their IGs and see how many ‘what kind of Muslim are you?’ comments there are in comparison to someone like Faryal Makhdoom who in comparison is a** lot** more modest in terms of dress..
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
Ok as we all know either extreme is no cool. I certainly wouldnt like the idea of wife wearing bikini in public as well as be a full fledge wear ninja costume in public. Not sure where we going with this…but being classy and stylish in moderation is the go. Jeez yo…i mean its seems everyones defination of moderation is different. It is like using moderation to their own advantage.
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
I find that a very weak argument/justification, if someone uses it. Corruption and ‘two faced behavior’ are universal things and it happens everywhere and anywhere, in every social layer of every society. The problem is that a lot of people forget that religious individuals are just individuals like any other individual, humans who also make mistakes like any other mortal. They are expected to be perfect, but no human is perfect. They may wear the tag of Islam, but that does not necessarily mean that they also represent the true message of Islam.
A good/devout muslim is per definition also a good human. You can not be a good muslim without being a good human. There are not more bad examples than good ones. It is just that the bad ones get more media attention and more attention in general.
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
Yes attitudes of people (not just Pakistanis) towards different matters, sins in this case, are skewed because us humans view it from our own subjective point of view.
Some people see living with inlaws as a major sin, but wont mind slooty clothes etc. Others prefer a joint family system, but what is the problem if you live like that and stay within limits of religion… and hey I am one of the skewed people just like anyone else.
A lot of people don’t even know that Rita Ora is muslim. I am sorry but these girls do get abused a lot online. You are checking on the wrong forums/places
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
Who knows as she might be seeing a lot of pakistani dramas where bhabis to nands to devranis and all in between are having affairs with young and old and poor and rich in-laws?
Agree with you for the most part. I don’t think there is much to argue just opinions to be discussed. We all have our own observations in the environments we have grown up in and observed around us. Corruption does exists everywhere, but in regards to our communities since this is what the thread is about, there is plenty to go around in ours alone. What are people doing to counter it? Most continue in their ways because everyone is in a fight for power. If you feel that argument is weak, my question is well what is really being done to bring about a change for these weaknesses that have plagued us? I very much agree that even religious individuals make mistakes and this is where I find that aspect weak. I am not the one who puts them on any type of special level, they themselves do. Everyone feels the need to shove their beliefs down your throat but pretty much don’t lead by their own examples. I have no problem with religious individuals, it’s just hard to come across genuine individuals that make you proud to know them and look up to their examples. I think culture and religion clash so much that yes it is a turn off. I am only referring to people who feel disconnected and that these could be the reasons for it. For people who don’t follow religion at all, I have no clue because I don’t know anyone on that end of the spectrum who are born and bred by Muslim parents. For the individuals that OP is referring to, I am not sure what their reasoning is.
Then why do we give them so much power? Why are they the ones holding the flags representing Islam. That’s exactly what I mean. Where are the good examples? I know not everyone can be generalized but for those who do wear the tags of Islam but cannot be trusted to lead in good faith (be it an Imam or a regular person in our everyday circles) then who can we look up to? Do you see what I mean? By the way, I am not talking about extreme terrorists groups. Not at all. I am talking about everyday people. I think most people in the Islamic world are greed about those people who commit crimes against humanity in Islam’s name.
Sorry, folks. I am a bit busy at the moment. Let me reply to you all in detail later.
Scherbatsky, guy #1 wasn’t trying to please me. You know how I know? Because he put forth the requirement that he would want freshly made roti and salan daily + expect his wife to work. That us what his mom and sis did their whole life and that is what he considers gold standard. I may have put up with this unreasonable demand but the religious bit was a huge turnoff for me. I didnt want such a father figure for my kids. So yeah if he was trying to please me, he would have said everything I wanted to hear.
Someone mentioned about guy #2 that the things I mentioned about his family dont indicate religious affiliation. I didnt want to give away too many details, but I was trying to say that the way his family interacted with my family, they gave us the imptession that they were practicing muslims and cultured. And yes they all had done umra. The guy does go to jumma and listens to islamic lectures. But as I learned in the process, they consider themselves good humans and that to them is above the avg pakistani muslim who prays and fasts but is otherwise a lying, two faced fraudiya.
Someone suggested the title, spirituality vs islam. I am sorry but how is spirituality not a part of islam? Why would we put them on opposite ends?
I will change the thread title once I think of something more suitable. This one was used for its shock value.
I am honestly quite shocked after these experiences. I have given only two examples here but in general I find people come across one way and turn out to be total opposite. I wonder what in their environment, upbringing or experiences is responsible for driving these extreme views.
I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
I think you mentioned one of the guys saying he was more spiritual than Islamic or practicing therefore the name suggestion. Did you ask him exactly the same question you just asked here, how is being spiritual not the same thing as being a practicing Muslim? Someone who believes theres a difference would be able to explain their thought process.
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
Hope this site and forum will help you answer that question a bit - great diversity and variation in opinion is evident all over - and ideally along with personal experiences of your own.
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
There are all kinds of people in Pakistan, and somehow that’s a surprise to people who grew up abroad. We rationalize what we like just like people in other places.
We don’t wanna give up on religion either because it’s so intertwined with our culture. We wouldn’t know what to do if we ceased to be Muslims. Abandoning religion outright would result in complete isolation from our people, our family, our everything. That might be why a lot of people believe in things that are paradoxical like Bikinis and Islam.
Re: I am Pakistani but I don’t mind my wife wearing a bikini in public
And I’m pretty sure there are people, of Pakistani origin, over here who okay with strutting in a Bikini on a public beach or are okay with their partner doing the same. People who were raised here. So there goes your comparison.
just like anyone else.