Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!!
Nice spin.
Senate passes Women Protection Bill
Off to the Presidency for final signing into law! :k:
Senate passes Women Protection Bill
The Senate Thursday passed the Women Protection Bill with a majority vote, rejecting all the amendments moved by the MMA members. The amendments were moved in various sections of the Bill by Senators Kamran Murtaza, Rehmatullah Kakar, Sajid Mir and Maulana Samiul Haq which the house rejected with a voice vote. ** The only political party which abstained during the voting, as per their leadership instructions, was PML (N) while the PPPP voted in its favour.** Before the second reading of the bill, Kamran Murtaza moved that it should be referred to the Council of Islamic Ideology to get its opinion on the issue. However, during the head count ordered by the chairman, the house rejected it by 20 to 40 votes.
Earlier Minister for Law Wasi Zafar said the government has not changed even a comma or a full stop in the Hudood Ordinance. He said the government has put back those clauses of the Hudood Ordinance into the Bill which were actually part of the Penal Code. The Minister termed the Hudood Ordinance un-Islamic and said it was being misused for exploitation of women. He said the government has been studying the ordinance for the last three years and urged the religious parties not to mislead the public in the name of religion. “They have tried their best that the democratic institutions should not work and the elected assemblies complete their tenure. But the people are now aware of their tactics.” Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs Kamil Ali Agha thanked all the political parties for their in-depth discussion on the bill in line with the democratic traditions. The MMA Senators in their speeches were critical of the Bill and said it was against the spirit of Islam.
Re: Senate passes Women Protection Bill
Yep... Hopefully the first step in the long journey towards an extremist and fundamentalist Pakistan...
Re: Amended Bill Protects Rapist
This law is atleast some what effective in most other countries, but obviously laws are never perfect. Even murderers get away with it sometimes, but I doubt there is any law that would blame the victim for the crime they endured, which is often the case with the Hudood laws.
Re: Senate passes Women Protection Bill
Excellent. May this be a Guided step in the Right direction.
Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!
I think if you have read the Jung Article by Maulana Taqi Usmani, you will see that he said that under the existing law they used to take DNA test too if need arises… i am not sure if Mullahs were against it too.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Women’s bill sails through Senate
*** MMA displays some fireworks but no resignations***
The Women Protection Bill (WPB) sailed through the Senate on Thursday amid soft peddling of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA)’s protest and rejection of more than a dozen amendments moved by different senators. Unlike the National Assembly, the MMA neither staged a walkout nor boycotted the proceedings. Its senators rather took part in a spirited and exhaustive debate till the last moments of the proceedings on the WPB. After the bill was passed, a couple of MMA senators half-heartedly raised slogans against the bill.
Except for MMA’s visible change of mind or strategy, other parliamentary parties stuck to the positions they had taken in the National Assembly on the crucial legislation. The Pakistan People’s Party- Parliamentarians (PPPP), Mehmood Achakzai’s PKMAP and Awami National Party supported it, while the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) abstained.
In the 100-member Upper House, a total of 48 senators of the ruling coalition were present at the time of the final passage of the bill. At times, the debate witnessed fireworks with some PML women senators taunting the MMA speakers over their assertions. However, they were not provoked and participated in the debate. MMA’s tall claims to quit notwithstanding, none of its members resigned, as they seemed dragging their feet on the issue. The Upper House of parliament, with a majority vote, rejected an MMA motion tabled by Kamran Murtaza to refer the bill to the Council of Islamic Ideology. The MMA could get only 20 votes and remained short of 20 votes for admission of their motion. **The PPPP, Awami National Party and nationalist parties from Balochistan did not support the MMA on this motion. Only PML-N voted in favour of the MMA on this issue. **Taking part in the debate, ruling PML senator and eminent constitutional expert S M Zafar advised the MMA to consult the Federal Shariat Court and seek advice whether the bill was in conformity with Islamic lines or not.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Again this time you had the government parties of the PML, MQM and PPP (Sherpao) and the opposition parties of the PPP-P, PKMAP and ANP supporting the WPB. While all other parties in the Senate - i.e. the nationalist Senators of Balochistan also opposing any MMA amendemnts to the bill.
It seems that save for the PML (Nawaz) the entire opposition united against the MMA! :k: 
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
This is most unexpected! Ayaz Amir writing something quite smart and right, and my agreeing with him!
What classic opening lines :k:
http://dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm**
Yesterday’s battles**
By Ayaz Amir
** WAS there no Islam before the Hudood Ordinance, 1979? Will there be no Islam after this iniquitous law is amended? What storm of absolute nonsense are the mullahs trying to whip up?**
Not that they are succeeding but that’s beside the point. We have other problems that need attending to. But trust our talent for irrelevance to raise a tempest over non-issues.
** Some of our more imaginative clerics have warned that the Women Protection Bill (which amends the Hudood law) will lead to sexual anarchy.** Funny and not a little titillating. Sexual anarchy in God’s own republic? Ghalib comes to mind: “Keh khushi say mar na jatay gar aitbar hota…” (Wouldn’t we die of joy were we to believe this.)
To see the way we go on about things relating to women, it would seem that women are our biggest problem, bigger than democracy, bigger than anything else. The more we have segregated and separated them, the more they seem to ride our imagination. Nature’s revenge, if you look at the matter judiciously. An attractive woman walks through a bazaar and even though she be veiled and dressed in a burqa, most men will be trying to x-ray her through their eyes, mesmerised by her ankles and hands if nothing else is visible.
We must be the foremost country on earth as far as staring at women is concerned. Foreigners coming to Pakistan notice this immediately. It could be flattering in the beginning but surely a bit trying after some time.
The periodic fuss in India, among Indian Muslims to be precise, over tennis star Sania Mirza’s on-court apparel is scarcely surprising. It is typical of the attitude of the subcontinental Muslim male to the grave threat posed to his equanimity by the attractive female. And Sania Mirza, as we all agree, is very attractive, besides being good at tennis, making her the best thing to have happened to subcontinental sport for a long time.
We are great hypocrites when it comes to these matters — I’m afraid I can’t be more explicit — but the prize, as far as hypocrisy is concerned, goes to our holy fathers. The general perception about them is that between their precepts and their practice the distance is great.
** We have always known this and our best poetry — whether Ghalib’s, Iqbal’s, Bulleh Shah’s or Ghulam Farid’s — treats the mullah with scant respect if not, quite often, with outright mockery. Strange therefore that because of General Ziaul Haq and his attempts to mullah-ise the country, the clergy in Pakistan has become the political nuisance that it is.**
**
I come from a typical north Punjab village and I know that in our social set-up mullahs were always tolerated — because they had to officiate at ceremonies of birth, death and marriage — but never considered of any social importance, as they still are not.
In politics they had no voice. In village disputes their opinion was neither sought nor considered and, mercifully, still isn’t. It might be different in the Frontier province which is more conservative but not in rural Punjab. The alliance of the holy fathers, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal, has come to power in the Frontier (with no little help from our military godfathers). That the Pakhtoons may be regretting their choice is a different matter. Not in a hundred years can the MMA come to power in Punjab.
**
Gen Ayub Khan (1958-69) had no time for the holy fathers, one of the few good things in his repertoire of folly and shortsightedness. But when after his departure conflict erupted in East Pakistan — the Awami League sweeping to an historic victory and the army resolved not to accept it — an alliance, born out of mutual necessity, was forged between the army and armed militias (Al-Shams, Al-Badr) allied to the Jamaat-i-Islami.
Both were on the same wavelength, the army convinced it was performing its patriotic duty, and the Jamaat that it was doing God’s work, in quelling the popular upsurge in East Pakistan, the land which gave birth to the Muslim League and was in the forefront of the demand for the creation of Pakistan.
That alliance formed in the killing fields of East Pakistan went underground during the Bhutto years only to emerge from the shadows during the anti-Bhutto agitation of 1977 and come fully into its own when Gen Zia seized power soon after. He was a closet mullah himself, sympathetic to the Islamic ideology of the Jamaat’s founder, Syed Abul Al’a Maudoodi.
As Zia went about consolidating power on a string of broken promises (elections in 90 days, etc), humility and hypocrisy his most effective weapons, the Jamaat virtually acted as his civilian auxiliary, its student wing, the Islami Jamiat-i-Tulaba, ever ready to use violence against Bhutto’s supporters.
The Afghan ‘jihad’ strengthened this alliance by drawing other religious parties into its fold. As Saudi and CIA money poured in to fight the Soviets, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), the conduit of this assistance, went from strength to strength, eventually becoming a behemoth with its tentacles in everything, including politics.
Kashmir ‘jihad’ came later when Zia had departed from the scene and Gen Aslam Beg was army chief. When the Soviets exited from Afghanistan, the mujahideen fell to fighting amongst themselves. But some elements were drawn to distant Kashmir where a popular uprising had erupted in 1989.
Pakistan did not invent or manufacture the Kashmir revolt. It couldn’t have done so. Ayub had tried to foment trouble in Kashmir back in 1965 but with what results we all know. It was Indian misrule which pushed Kashmiri youth into picking up the gun. Not that most Indians are inclined to accept this argument, rationality flying out of the window when it comes to Kashmir. Of the many forms of patriotism, denial is one of the most powerful.
India, however, can thank the ISI for messing up the Kashmir uprising by trying to take it under its wing. This was a replay of the Afghan ‘jihad’, a military victory turning into a political disaster. Tactical skill to be of any use must be accompanied by a gift for reading the larger picture.
Gen Musharraf was very much the usual military product, extolling ‘jihad’ and the philosophy underpinning it until his forced conversion to a different mode of thinking post-Sept 11, 2001. Had he been the Ataturk he imagined himself to be, he would have lost no time in reshaping the political landscape and doing away with the nonsense-in-the-name-of-Islam Pakistan had accumulated since the Zia years and which none of his immediate successors — Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif — had had the courage or vision to sweep away.
If nothing else, the whole of the Hadood Ordinance should have been thrown into the dustbin. But he didn’t do so, losing the momentum every incoming leader enjoys. The result is that he is trying his hands at being a social reformer, donning the mantle of Ataturk — albeit, in truth, a tinpot version of Ataturk — six or seven years too late, that too in small, hesitant doses. The battle now being fought with the mullahs, and indeed precipitated by their own folly, should have been initiated long ago.
But better late than never and let’s hope he doesn’t lose his nerve, nor pays too much heed to the siren counsels of the Q League president, Shujaat Hussain, who has his own axe to grind and who is opposed to the quest for exploring new political options because that would undermine his own importance.
The circle around Musharraf is split between the status quo-ists who want him to keep all his eggs in the Q basket and those pressing him to reach out to other elements (for which read Benazir Bhutto’s PPP). It is still an open question which side prevails.
** Will the MMA walk out of the National Assembly? Hard to say but it would be a good thing if they do.** It should help Musharraf make up his mind and it just might give that small push towards some form of creative disorder which our politics desperately needs. Next to women — as I have said our acutest problem — our other two problems are mullah nuisance and military dominance. Fighting both together is difficult, therefore a good thing if they have split, allowing both to be dealt with one at a time. Indeed, cutting the holy fathers down to size is an essential prelude to the struggle for democracy.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Xcom_Cheetah:
[quote]
question is whether we are ready to surrender to Allah's command and will whether it looks outdated or wotever..
[/quote]
Actually, most Pakistanis are ready to surrender to Allah’s command and they do. The problem is that no one is ready to surrender to the command of some retarded self-proclaimed muftis (and cult that started few generation ago), who interpret Islam according to their retarded mind and made some ridiculous laws coming out of their imagination and associating them with Quran and sunnah and wanting people to believe them as laws of Allah.
Since you wanted us to read what you posted in that article, please read below too and comment after reading all of it, rather commenting without reading.
These so-called Muftis (like Mufti Taqi) are doing what Prophet (SAW) told Muslims that these retarded would do. According to one hadith, Prophet (SAW) said that time would come when Muslims would do same, what Yahud and Nassara did with the religion of Allah. It was so-called mufti and ulema of Yahud and Nassarh that made the message of Allah sent to Musa (AS), Issa (AS) and other prophets corrupted and that is what retarded Muftis and Ulemas of these days are doing to Islam.
Mufti Taqi whole article is classic example showing ignorance of our muftis along with state of our judiciary, that have such people as judges.
Mufti Taqi in his article is talking about laws and seems he does not know that a law that demands impossible proof is not a law, but a big joke, mostly used by police, influential, or state, to exploit innocents (Mufti Taqi was once member of penal of shariet court judges, still he seems so ignorant of this fact). If a country has a law that, ‘any human that would fly using his hands as wings, would get death punishment’, what would you call such law, other then farce law? Now, since no human could fly using hands as wings, no one would get punish (but surely, police and influential might exploit innocents using that law). Similar happened in Europe, when European lawmakers under the influence of retarded from church, allowed witch hunt.
Thus, such law means nothing but joke, with no purpose other then increasing misery of already miserable. Same way, *asking or demanding four pious witnesses for rape from woman victim is impossible proof, as no human would do rape in front of four pious witnesses that can be sure that rape happened, that means four pious adult men of good character saw the rape. They were so close that they saw rapist literally entering the women (as being eyewitness, they have to be sure rape happened). *
Actually, if these pious were there at rape scene and were watching rape so closely to see entering of rapist in woman, it was their duty to stop such act, and if they had done to stop such act, woman would not have been raped. So, these pious witnesses being witnesses to such rape in their confession, literally confesses that they allowed rape to happen and thus become partner to that rape instead of being witnesses, and hence, they deserve punishment as much as rapist.
Mufti Taqi whole article is full of contradictions, unintelligent comments, absurd arguments, and ridiculous remarks. Probably, his article is for those ignorant Pakistanis who would not question anything but read him and believe him without questioning. Article has so many ridiculous statements that it is tedious to point out all of it. Regardless, he divided his article in broadly four points of objection and I will try to comment on them.
Mufti Taqi points and comments on his points:
Mufti Taqi point one: He writes that according to present ordinance, punishment of zina-bil-Jabar as written in Quran and sunnah would not be applicable, rather people involved in Zina-bil-Jabar would only get punishment under Tazeeraar-e-Pakistan (Pakistan penal code).
Comment on point one: Mufti claims that Pakistan hudud ordinance of Zia’s imagination was laws of Allah, is fabrication of Mufti mind. Past hudud laws was nothing to do with laws of Allah or Islam.
Rape verdict under ‘Pakistan hudud law of Zia’s imagination’ (that also included group rape) demands 4 eye witnesses, else case has to be dealt with under tazeer-e-Pakistan, anyhow. Does he know of any case in Pakistan, where after proof of zina-bil-jabar, hudd punishment given to rapist?
[Even today, punishment for group-rape case is death and thus this punishment is more severe then hudd cases, where even group-rape case cannot be proven]
I do not know if Mufti is intelligent enough to be aware that, requirement of four eye witnesses is literally impossible to get in any rape cases or even in adultery cases. Thus, past hudud ordinance was doing nothing other then victimising the victim (women because they had to confess of rape and if not proven, then it has to be adultery) and exonerating (freeing) the rapists (as four witnesses cannot be found). Thus, Pakistan Hudud ordinance was licence for rapists to rape innocent women with immunity of punishment, as long as they make sure that rape case stays under hadud and do not go to tazeer.
Since, haad law could not have punished rapist, shariet judge could have sent cases to tazeer adaalat, if judge wants to (not compulsion but they had this option). Judge sending the case to tazeer was under his jurisdiction (judge’s control or power, thus it was not compulsion but optional). Taking that power out of judge, making all rape cases to go straight to tazeer court automatically is best and most appropriate, what is wrong there?
[Just imagine that a Shariet judge’s close relative or friend raped an innocent woman, or judge was bribed, or that he is acting under influence of someone influential, or that girl is poor and judge is indifferent (maybe, he does not care), then judge would not be bothered to pass the case to tazeer. Thus, letting police registering case against women under adultery charges (just to make life difficult for the girl who accused someone of rape, to get bribe, because of being bribed by rapist, under the influence of influential rapist, or whatever, and thus punishing the girl). Would that be fair and acceptable? Present law took away that anomalies and made things more just, for all.
In most cases where poor and uneducated are involved, police registers cases the way they like. From his article, it seems that Mufti Taqi is not even happy that police got their power of registering such cases curtailed and thus now could not misuse their power]
Nevertheless, in his article Mufti Taqi contradicts himself at several places. He admits that zina-bil-jabar that has no witnesses as required, hudud ordinance give jurisdiction to shariet judges, to transfer the case, to tazeer. Now, when government has realised that it is impossible to find eyewitnesses for zina-bal-jabar, they transferred all cases automatically to tazeer.
Thus, his argument that if such cases would be transferred automatically to tazeer, it is going against Quran and sunnah, is contradictory and ridiculous, as that is recommended in hudud ordinance too. Only difference is that, government has taken away the jurisdiction of Shariah court judges by removing zina-bil-jabar cases from shariah court and made the case go to tazeer automatically.
Mufti Taqi point two: In hudud law, zina to go under Tazeer, has been given name of lewdness and punishment is reduced.
Comment on point two: I do not know if he is more concerned of word lewdness or Zina-bil-jabar cases going to tazeer court, automatically. What I know, in tazeer-e-Pakistan, cases related to immortality are under lewdness, and if zina is made part of immorality cases, what is wrong? Question is that, does Mufti Taqi consider zina as immorality or not? If Mufti Taqi considers that zina is not an immoral act but very pious act, than that is different matter (he seems master of interpretations). I believe that most Pakistanis consider that zina is an immoral (lewdness) act, thus there is nothing wrong to call such act lewdness.
Obviously, there are different degrees of lewdness and punishments given according to degrees (severity) of lewdness. In his article, Mufti Taqi assumes that, since Zina is part of lewdness that has soft to harsh punishment sentences, people involved in rape cases may get soft and short punishment allowed for lewdness. His comment shows Mufti Taqi mistrust of other judges and their capability to give appropriate punishments. That is ludicrous assumption. Actually, if judge of tazeer court would give lower punishment, lawyer could still appeal against that judgment to higher court.
Under past hudud law, there was no punishment for zina-bil-jabar cases, as proof was impossible to achieve. The best that a shariet judge could have done was to send the case to tazeer, where punishment would be according to tazeer law (Pakistan penal code). Problem is that, sending a case to Tazeer was at the discretion of shariet judge, so if judge wants to send the case they can, and if they do not, they do not have to, and in many cases they did not, letting the girl keep suffering in prison for no crime other then trying to get justice.
Thus, nothing changed other then the case going to tazeer straight from the beginning, leaving no possibility that a case enters shariet court and than left on shariet judge to send the case to tazeer, giving rapist opportunity to take advantage of shareit court and hudud laws. In past, this anomalies, and irregularities caused rapists and police, both taking advantage of victim misery. Probably some judges of shariet court might also have taken this opportunity to have some bribe money on the side.
Mufti Taqi point three: In past zina ordinance, laan procedure is binding on husband but in present ordinance it is not binding, and thus, according to Mufti Taqi, women blamed of adultery by her husband is bounded to stay in marriage (what he says, bay-basee say uss mard kay saath shadi may latki rahay gee) even when accused by him.
Comment on point three: According to new laws in Pakistan, Qazaf is still punishable. If husband would not take part in laan than wife can register case against him on qazaf (wrong accusation of zina), and husband would be punished under Qazaf law. So what is the big deal? Husband accused his wife. Laan is asked (that happens when accused is husband). Husband refuses laan, so case would go under qazaf and husband gets punished. Why Mufti Taqi believe that this should not (or would not) happen?
Mufti Taqi statement in his article: ‘Agar laan per shouhar amadah na ho tou aurat bay-basee say latki rahay gee’ means that Mufti Taqi (who was once judge) does not know that present government has made khula law appropriate and easy, and thus no woman in Pakistan has to stay with her husband if she does not wants to. [Today, a woman in Pakistan only has to apply to court for khula and that application itself becomes proof that woman need khula, and thus court grants khula].
Under laan case where her husband does not want to agree for laan, she can register case against her husband on Qazf. Regardless, no woman in present Pakistan needs to stay trapped with a husband in bay-basee (as Mufti says). When a wife can sue her husband of Qazf (wrong accusation), why force husband to come to laan (that is better for husband as it only results in divorce, nothing else), rather let her sue on Qazf charges, resulting husband to get severe punished of prison and fine (that could be 10 years in prison plus huge fine)?
Mufti Taqi point four: If Shareit court finds that a case cannot be proven under hudud but crime is done, they could have transferred the case to tazeer but present law demands separate application of case under tazeer.
Comment on point four: Yea, Shareit court could send the case to tazeer, but not necessarily. That is why many women in Pakistan punished for no reason under adultery accusation when they are rape victim, because Shariet court did not transferred the case to tazeer. Now, since such case would not come to Shareit court but would go to tazeer court directly (as it should), there would be no chance of injustice to raped woman (and thus no raped women would go to prison on adultery charges).
Since, haad law could not punish rapist (due to witness requirements), shariet judge can send cases to tazeer adaalat. Judge sending the case to tazeer was under his jurisdiction (judge’s control or power). Taking that power out of shariet judge, making all rape cases to go straight to tazeer court automatically is best, and would help raped victim the most.
Actually, there are many things that Mufti Taqi wrote in his article is ridiculous, illogical, absurd, and preposterous. One cannot go on all his points, as they are too many, so I just commented on few major points mentioned.
I wonder if most Pakistanis know where Zia’s Hudud ordinance came from and what sort of mental level thought went into this hudud ordinance. Well, Zia’s hudud ordinance formulated in Saudi Arabia by misguided who had extremely retarded minds 20th century has seen. To understand the level of their retarded mind, a person just has to look at fatwa of one of those leading personality that was involved in most of Saudia’s shariah laws, and ponder what can come out of such retarded minds and their preaching of Islam.
They love to misguide Muslims and make them believe idiocy. Let show some absurd things these Sheikhs and Muftis (and their likes) could say and would want Muslims to believe. Actually, they even try to give their idiotic interpretation to Quranic ayahs and make Allah look ridiculous (even though it is not Allah but their idiot mind is ridiculous).
Here is fatwa of Sheikh (grand Mufti) Bin Baz, one of the most influential and famous official grand Mufti of Saudia, who was involved enacting most of Saudi Shariah laws: According to his fatwa, Muslims who disputes that earth is flat, are atheist and deserve punishment (that is his interpretation of Islam). For him only those idiots are Muslims who believe that earth is flat. Here is the fatwa.
*"In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Merciful, The Bestower of Mercy. "The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished." [Muslim religious edict, 1993, Sheikh Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baz, Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia. Fatwa came through the Permanent committee for Islamic Research and Fatwa, whose head was Bin Baz]" *
Do you believe that earth is flat? Do you think Allah asked Muslims to believe that earth is flat? Do you think that Islam teaches us that earth is flat? Now, how many Muslims believe that earth is flat? If disputes that earth is flat, Mufti Bin Baz considers them atheist, and wants to punish them too. *In effect, this retard from Saudi Arabia has called most Muslim atheist deserving punishment, that includes me, as I do not believe that earth is flat, and I believe most Muslims other than retards do not believe that earth is flat. *
[If one is doubtful about above such fatwa, one can find out easily. Year Bin Baz gave fatwa and book reference is given, and I believe one could even search internet regarding that fatwa, as it is famous fatwa of Bin Baz.]
Clarification: I believe that earth is not flat. After reading ‘flat earth’ fatwa by Bin Baz, I have only two choices. I believe that Bin Baz was retarded and incapable of giving any opinion (fatwa), or consider that his opinion has some weight and thus earth could be flat and my believing that earth is not flat means I am atheist. Well, I am not atheist, I believe on Allah, Prophet (SAW), Quran, angels, akharah, taqdeer, jaza-saza, etc an thus he must be retard.
Actually, Bin Baz (similar to Mufti Taqi and people like him) used wrong interpretations of Quranic ayahs and certain hadiths to form his opinions resulting in fatwa as Bin Baz gave above (that the earth is flat). Problem is not fatwa, problem is that these retards want that their fatwa should be imposed on Muslims (and in this way, these people are trying to introduce and impose ignorance and in cases kufr, amongst Muslims).
Bin Baz further writes in his book:
Title of the Book: "Evidence that the Earth is Standing Still."
Author: Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz.
Editor: Islamic University of Medina.
Year: 1395 AH. City: Medina, Saudi Arabia.
On page: 23 of that book: "If the earth is rotating as they claim, the countries, the mountains, the trees, the rivers, and the oceans will have no bottom and the people will see the eastern countries move to the west and the western countries move to the east."
He wrote what he wrote above, because Bin Baz little intelligence could not understand that, when a person is part of a moving object, object looks still while other things around the object looks moving. Thus, for us, earth and all on earth looks still and things around earth, like sun and stars looks moving, though actually with respect to earth, sun and stars are still and earth is moving. Sight of stationary and moving things is not real, but perceptive (what out eyes perceive), based on comparative movement with us as centre, though reality is what one can observe after taking oneself out of that observation. Since Bin Baz and people like him do not understand that, they give fatwa from their misguided understanding as below:
"In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Merciful, The Bestower of Mercy."
*"The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished." *[Muslim religious edict, 1993, Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia]
Just imagine that Bin Bazz fatwa (that all Pakistanis should believe that earth is flat or get punishment as atheist) becomes part of Pakistan shariah law, what would happen? Most Pakistanis would have to believe absurd that earth is flat, or get hanged as apostate.
**
[Though one can prove from Quran and Hadith that death for apostate in present time (or forbidding of music, present day bank interest being ribah, stoning death punishment for adultery, etc) is nothing to do with Islam, but are introduced in Islam because of influences of retarded muftis like Bin Baz.]**
Who is Sheikh Bin Baz? He was born in Riyadh, 1910 (Dhul Hijjah 12, 1330). His father died when he was eight years old. Sheikh Bin Baz was able to recite entire Qur'an when he was eleven years old. He lost his sight when he was sixteen. In addition to memorization the Qur'an, he memorized all major hadith and many other important texts.
His first position was as a judge in Kharj from 1936-1950. He taught at the Religious Institute of Riyadh and then at the faculty of Shariah. He became Deputy Rector at the Islamic University of Madinah in 1950. He was promoted to Rector in 1970. A royal decree was issued which appointed him President of the Administration of Religious Research, Ifta, Da'wah, and Guidance at the rank of a minister. Sheikh Ibn Baz was appointed Grand Mufti by King Fahd in 1994. *
*** [one should note that Bin Baz promotion to Grand Mufti came after Bin Baz gave fatwa of 'flat earth', shows the level of King Fahd and Saudi government level of intelligence too. Instead of sending him to hospital of lunatics, they made him Grand Mufti of the Kingdom.***
So, one can see that worldly positions and successes do not mean that, a person could not be a retard, as only mentally retard in 20th century can believe that earth is flat.**
**Even if a person has no knowledge of world (never travelled and completely uneducated), still knowing that world has different time period at different places, such that at the same time there are places where it is day and places where it is night (that any idiot with a phone facility could know), shows that earth is not flat.
For these retards, they would not even understand that if earth was flat, than, when sun is out and shining, day would be everywhere, and when there would be no sun, it would be night all over the world. Probably, they believe that world has either day all over the world or night all over the world and thus timing of fajar, zuhar, asar, magrib and Isha must be happening same time all over the world, probably that is why they advocate Eid same day all over the world.]**
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
This is most unexpected! Ayaz Amir writing something quite smart and right, and my agreeing with him!
What classic opening lines :k:***
Yeah, a classic opening of a great article, but you seem to have forgotten to mark the crux of the article. Let me do it for you…
***Gen Musharraf was very much the usual military product, extolling ‘jihad’ and the philosophy underpinning it until his forced conversion to a different mode of thinking post-Sept 11, 2001. Had he been the Ataturk he imagined himself to be, he would have lost no time in reshaping the political landscape and doing away with the nonsense-in-the-name-of-Islam Pakistan had accumulated since the Zia years and which none of his immediate successors — Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif — had had the courage or vision to sweep away.
If nothing else, the whole of the Hadood Ordinance should have been thrown into the dustbin. But he didn’t do so, losing the momentum every incoming leader enjoys. The result is that he is trying his hands at being a social reformer, donning the mantle of Ataturk — albeit, in truth, a tinpot version of Ataturk — six or seven years too late, that too in small, hesitant doses. The battle now being fought with the mullahs, and indeed precipitated by their own folly, should have been initiated long ago.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Br Sa1eem you shud learn to debate in a civilized manner without resorting to words like Jahil, retarded etc, it wud make u sound more reasonable.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Shawaiz, yes, these portions are quite right too, but i dont agree that Mush is a tin pot version of Atta Turk. Actually when he was new to power he was largelly being dubbed "Atta Pak" due to his own admission regarding great inspiration from Mustufa Kamal. But later on he also went to declare that "I'm no Zia, or Ayub and I'm no Ata Turk, I'm Pervez Musharraf and I have my own reasoning and I do what I think is right for my country and people..." this was said in a TV interview 2 or so years ago.
So the constant whining about how Mush took a 180 degree turn after 9/11 is aalways coming from ppl who seem to forget the basic principle of foreing relations, best described by George Washignton when he said that nations dont have permanent friends or allies, all depends on national interest. The whole world follows this. As did Pakistan under Musharraf. Plus one should get a realty check about what other option could have been weighed. Its all well explained in "In the line of fire".
Then about the 'repeal' of Hudood Ord; Repealing would have broken hell and it was never really a practical option. Ammendment has brought such storms, repealing would have made Mullahs declare jihad under the impression that they are the last of the muslims left in Pakistan.
And, if Mush were to become a platinum ( as opposed to tin pot) version of Ata Turk, like Ayaz Amir longed for, or for him to take 'action' while he had the 'momentum' against all like Mullahs, career feudal politicians and so on, would he have accepted it!? Does Ayaz Amir or those who raise this point, realize that it would have meant hanging for all the bearded so called mullahs, firing squad for Nawaz Sharif, life term for small time crooks and PMLN ticket holders like Ayaz himself and taking over control of all land from the feudal lords. I think Mush should have done all this! But i'm sure ayaz amir doeasnt realyy mean what he's saying here regarding Gen Mush and what he should/could have done accroding to him...
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Shawaiz, yes, these portions are quite right too, but i dont agree that Mush is a tin pot version of Atta Turk. Actually when he was new to power he was largelly being dubbed "Atta Pak" due to his own admission regarding great inspiration from Mustufa Kamal. But later on he also went to declare that "I'm no Zia, or Ayub and I'm no Ata Turk, I'm Pervez Musharraf and I have my own reasoning and I do what I think is right for my country and people..." this was said in a TV interview 2 or so years ago.
Yes, mushy is not a Pakistani version of Ataturk. Mushy is mushy, a tinpot military dictator. He can be compared only with other military dictators like Zia, both the dictators used religion to sustain their rules. Mushy can never be Ataturk because Ataturk never rigged the elections to bring the Mullahs into power, Ataturk never used the Mullahs to amend the constitution. Ataturk won wars for its country and had a vision for which he is still admired in his country.
Mushy often burst out to prove how patriotic he is, no wonder patriotism is said to be the last resort of scoundrels.
So the constant whining about how Mush took a 180 degree turn after 9/11 is aalways coming from ppl who seem to forget the basic principle of foreing relations, best described by George Washignton when he said that nations dont have permanent friends or allies, all depends on national interest. The whole world follows this. As did Pakistan under Musharraf. Plus one should get a realty check about what other option could have been weighed. Its all well explained in "In the line of fire".
Then about the 'repeal' of Hudood Ord; Repealing would have broken hell and it was never really a practical option. Ammendment has brought such storms, repealing would have made Mullahs declare jihad under the impression that they are the last of the muslims left in Pakistan.
Everybody has done almost the same thing what the military dictator mushy did. And which country wants to be bombed back to the stone age. :)
And, if Mush were to become a platinum ( as opposed to tin pot) version of Ata Turk, like Ayaz Amir longed for, or for him to take 'action' while he had the 'momentum' against all like Mullahs, career feudal politicians and so on, would he have accepted it!? Does Ayaz Amir or those who raise this point, realize that it would have meant hanging for all the bearded so called mullahs, firing squad for Nawaz Sharif, life term for small time crooks and PMLN ticket holders like Ayaz himself and taking over control of all land from the feudal lords. I think Mush should have done all this! But i'm sure ayaz amir doeasnt realyy mean what he's saying here regarding Gen Mush and what he should/could have done accroding to him..
Yaar, only person who really deserves a date with any firing squad is nobody else but our little commando Mushy. I'm a law-abiding citizen and will support hanging all those Mullahs and Sharifs who really have commited any such a crime which is punishable by death in this country. Lets begin with mushy.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
[QUOTE]
Yaar, only person who really deserves a date with any firing squad is nobody else but our little commando Mushy. I'm a law-abiding citizen and will support hanging all those Mullahs and Sharifs who really have commited any such a crime which is punishable by death in this country. Lets begin with mushy.
[/QUOTE]
Then I guess they should go in order right? the last or least one to commit a 'grave sin' should go last. If one talks about the constitution, Mush actually did whatever he did through a legal process involving the legal experts and officials fit for the job through the SC. The others, NS or BB, ravaged it as they liked, one even broke in to the SC with his 'bouncers', the other has been involved in acts against the constitution and PPC much graver than merely ammending.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
One newspaper after another has applauaded President Musharraf for hsi bold stance in getting the WPB passed.
WPB: a turning point
The Women’s Protection Bill will provide much-needed protection to the women of Pakistan against the oppression unleashed on them by male chauvinists in the garb of religion. **The president ought to be commended for getting the bill passed in parliament and helping the cause of women’s liberation from the excesses of our male-dominated society, held hostage for years by bigoted minds not interested in the welfare of the people. **According to these self-proclaimed champions of faith and morality, women are to be treated like chattel whose salvation lies in slavishly obeying everything that they are told to do. The Musharraf government and its allies have taken a bold initiative by pushing this bill through parliament and in the process breaking all the misperception that the legislation was somehow anti-religion. Not even the majority parties enjoying heavy public mandate could dare to take up this challenge although it was direly needed years back. The passage of the bill is a turning point in the country’s socio-political history. Let’s try to evaluate the things objectively leaving aside all the rampant biases and preconceived notions especially the ones revolving around religion as preached by different religious scholars. The yardstick that should be applied, at least in the first instance, is common wisdom that is based on the ordinary public’s considered opinion and convictions. Even that would suffice leaving no room for trying the yardstick of western thought (which is usually condemned by our scholars without sound reason for most of the time).
Picking up the common wisdom, one is made to believe only one thing that despite the fact that sections of Hudood ordinance pertaining to rape of women put the onus for proving the allegation on the victims (the women). That is why most Pakistanis did not agree with these ordinances. If they did not protest vocally or forcefully against those particular sections of the Hudood Ordinance, it was only for the reason of their own haplessness and for the fear of wrath of religious elements that have always tried to impose their own interpretation of Islam threatening the people that if they failed to comply with their directives, the wrath of God would fall upon them. In passing the Women’s Protection Bill the National Assembly and the Senate have reflected this popular belief that the Hudood ordinances had to be amended because they were being grossly misused and abused to harass women. **Even the single largest political party, the Pakistan People’s Party Parliamentarians (PPPP) led by Benazir Bhutto, has supported the passage of this legislation. The president has acknowledged this support and paid tribute to it. In this context, parties like the MQM, the PPP-S, the PML-F and the PKMAP must also be commended for their support in getting the bill passed. **Support of the PPPP is especially worth commenting upon since it serves as a source of inspiration and encouragement for the president and his aides, though it does not necessarily indicate the finalisation of a ‘deal’ between Ms Bhutto and Musharraf. Nevertheless, it probably be indicative of a shift and may mean a lot in that context to the ruling establishment. The country needs the resoluteness of an iron man to put an end to these evils that have ruined the entire social and moral fabric, besides leading to oppression not only of the womenfolk but also of the entire lower and middle strata of our society. The president will be doing an excellent job by hitting hard at these evils.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Involving legal experts like Sharifuddin Peerzada :)
Following are Mushy's some 'legal' acts which he did through a legal process involving the legal experts and officials who were more than fit for the job.
-Overthrew an elected government only because the prime minister had fired him.
-dismissed judges, not one or two or three judges but 18 of them, just because they had denied the edicts of the military dictator.
-accredited the madrasa degree equivalent to Bachelor degree, thus the military dictator made it possible for his cronies, Mullahs, to take part in the elections and the Mullahs very much reciprocated by giving the military dictator support in crucial moments ( could he amend the constitution without Mullah's support?)
-blatantly rigged the elections.
-held a fraudulent referendum.
-holds the COAS and president offices which is unconstitutional.
These are only few of his many acts he did "through a legal process".
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!!
Because islam mandates it...unequivocally. Case closed.
In any case, only when knowledge of an adulterous affair becomes public does the government get involved...Islam and so an Islamic state has no business spying on people in their bedrooms.
It's only fair to persecute people based on what they do within the public eye.
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)
Hah…these boozer loosers are probably guilty of adultry themselves, hence their opposition to Hudood. Just speculation, of course…
Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!!
In any case, only when knowledge of an adulterous affair becomes public does the government get involved...Islam and so an Islamic state has no business spying on people in their bedrooms.
It's only fair to persecute people based on what they do within the public eye.
[FONT=Times New Roman]It is a bigoted approach to say that such and such thing is bad per se because “Islam mandates it”. You have to prove it by way of reasoning. And it’s ‘unfair’ to persecute people based on what they do in the public eye. If they are not harming the public in anyway, what does the public has to do with an individual and his freedoms? Only when people do something harmful to the society then they should be punished.
[FONT=Times New Roman]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Public eye vs. An individual is the same as State vs. A citizen. This is why we have a Bill of Rights in every Constitution to protect the citizens rights and freedoms from the State and the public. The State is too powerful compared to an individual, it can persecute or prosecute him, that’s why these safeguards of citizen’s rights are necessary.