Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

So finally the bill was passed. The MMA’s so called maulanas kept whining as usual, opposing everything and even after 6 months or so, remained unable to explain exactly how the bill is unislamic…PPP, a part of the opposition sided with the govt in this decision; now this is called constructive politics, where regardless of agendas and intentions, atleast once in a while smthng is done for the people. Meanwhile Chowdry Shujaat has submitted a resignation with Chowdry Amir Hussain, which will be accepted if ever the Bill is proven to be against Islamic teachings.

**Some respite for women, at last: Protection of rights bill gets through NA
**http://dawn.com/2006/11/16/top1.htm

**Musharraf finds kind word for PPP
**http://dawn.com/2006/11/16/top2.htm

**Shujaat has ‘resignation’ pending
**http://dawn.com/2006/11/16/top4.htm

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

It is definitely a step in the right direction. Wonder why MMA is against DNA testing, could it be because a lot of them might get convicted. :)

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

Rapist must be sentenced to death then this bill can be acceptable to me at least. Otherwise this is going to harm our society specially our women.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!


may be because: DNA Test = firangi (infidel) ki ijaad hai

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

:D

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

I found the article I mentioned above;

http://www.dawn.com/2006/04/20/fea.htm

****Courts, ulema debate admissibility of DNA tests


By Irfan Ahmed

LAHORE: **Although Pakistan has fine DNA testing laboratories, these facilities remain closed to the public and results obtained from them are not recognised by the Islamic clergy and the judiciary.
**
Fierce debates are going on in the country among clerics, jurists and social scientists on the admissibility of DNA tests — that establish genetic links — as evidence in court. There are apprehensions of adverse fallouts from allowing the people free access to the tests.

The concept of DNA testing in criminal cases is relatively new in Pakistan and was introduced by the government to meet security challenges facing the country as well as global powers engaged in the ‘war-on-terror’ in Afghanistan.

In 2001, the research laboratory of the Centre for Excellence in Molecular Biology (CEMB) at the Punjab University was suddenly notified as the first official laboratory for DNA testing. The CEMB director, Dr. S Reazuddin, was declared director of the laboratory for conducting crime-related DNA testing and for determining paternity cases.

While the utility of DNA testing cannot be denied in Pakistan where suicide bombings and anti-terrorist raids— including those against Al-Qaeda terrorists — are common, its advent has raised serious concerns in this highly conservative society.

DNA technology has wide application and can be used for identity determination in mass disasters such as an earthquake, in searches for missing persons, solving inheritance issues, medicine and in scientific and archaeological research.

There were no objections when DNA testing was used to identify the remains of Wall Street Journal reporter, Daniel Pearl, who was kidnapped and beheaded by terrorists in Karachi, in 2002. Similarly, the people were unconcerned when DNA tests were used to determine whether Ayman al-Zawahiri, Al-Qaeda’s second-in-command, was among those killed in a US military air-strike inside Pakistan’s territory, in January.

** But eyebrows are invariably raised whenever there is a demand to resort to DNA testing in deciding cases that touch on adultery and paternity — sensitive issues in the Pakistani society.**

Muhammad Imtiaz, a criminal lawyer, told IPS that so far there is no clear-cut policy on admissibility of DNA tests as evidence in Pakistani courts. Different courts have come out with different observations, he pointed out. The Lahore High Court handed over a two-year-old child Rohail to Sahazad Ali on April 27, 2005, after a DNA test proved him to be the biological father. Shahzad had told the court that he had been living with the mother of the child without marrying her.

But, in another case, the same court observed on May 20, 2005, that DNA testing is not acceptable as evidence to establish adultery for which Hudood laws (Islamic jurisprudence) call for the direct testimony of four ‘pious’ male eyewitnesses against an accused.

To make matters worse, the government has not yet amended the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC) to allow DNA test results to be made admissible as evidence in criminal cases. Civil and family courts of the country, that are burdened with cases of inheritance and paternity disputes, cannot benefit from DNA tests.

As the debate goes on, the government succeeded, earlier this month, in establishing its first DNA test laboratory in Islamabad, meant solely to investigate complicated terrorism and criminal cases. The one at CEMB is basically an academic research laboratory.

The newly-established laboratory has facilities for testing cases related to microbiology, ballistics and explosives, chemical examination and toxicology. It has been established by the National Police Bureau, under its National Forensic Science Programme (NFSP), with the help of China that provided the technology and the basic equipment.

Amjad Ali, a social activist, says that giving the people access to DNA testing laboratories can prove disastrous. “In a society where people can kill their wives on mere suspicion of being disloyal, what will they do once they have irrefutable evidence is anybody’s guess,” he says.

The rights lobby Amnesty International has noted that in Pakistan hundreds of women are known to die each year as a result of honour killings. Many more cases go unreported and almost all go unpunished. Police almost invariably take the man’s side in honour killings and rarely prosecute killers. Even when men are convicted, the judiciary ensures that they get off with a light sentence, reinforcing the view that men can kill their female relatives with impunity.

Ali thinks that DNA testing was promoted in Pakistan at the behest of the US without consulting local groups and creating awareness among the masses. Had this been done, the level of tolerance and acceptance among people would have been higher. “They just want to equip Pakistan to fight their war against terror. Beyond this, they have no concern whatsoever,” he said.

** Siddique Akbar, a cleric, told IPS that replacing the condition of eyewitnesses in establishing adultery charges with DNA test results would be like waging a war against God. “The condition to provide four eye witnesses cannot be done away with. Technology or no technology, we have to stick to the divine dictates.”

On the use of DNA tests to determine a child’s paternity, he says this would create problems for many. “Our religion prohibits us from publicising others’ sins. Publicly declaring someone illegitimate or of having fathered a child outside marriage is no service at all.”**

Reazuddin, said that, initially, his laboratory was open to the people but the facility is now restricted. Depending on the sensitivity of the issue, the laboratory has been directed by the government to conduct tests only on samples forwarded by courts or in cases registered with the police.

“In the past, several private tests conducted here have removed doubts regarding their legitimacy. While this is a great service, problems arise when the situation is otherwise,” said Reazuddin. “Telling someone that the child he is bringing up was fathered by someone else is difficult. Besides, we cannot hide facts as this would be tantamount to committing professional dishonesty.”—Dawn/IPS News Service

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

They say theyd rather have 4 dishonest witnesses than a blunt and honest scientific solution. Whose fault is it that the 4 witnesses today cant be trusted and a scientific solution is more honest and reliable?
Plus, if they fear women being killed etc when DNA tests prove things, why dont they realize that many falsely accused would also be saved from death, or a miserable life, when proven innocent or clean...

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

I'd like to point out that DNA evidence was acceptable before this passing this Bill in the NA, and that 4 male witnesses was never needed to prove a rape.

The main difference this Bill will make is not having the automatic accusation of adultery on a woman who can't prove a rape. This is the good thing

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

thats good to hear. why is this one of the major points used to desrcribe the outgoing system in all the newspapers?

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

you tell me..all newspapers have an agenda, some are on government payrolls. but 4 witnesses were never a requirement to prove a rape in Pakistan.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!


roadrunner actually 4 male witnesses were required to prove it, failing which the woman would be charged on adultery and punished. Thousands of innocent women are languishing in Pakistani jails on this very failure of Hudood law.

Also if I'm not wrong, the onus of providing the 4 witnesses was on the woman.

Even if we assume the law to be infallible, there was not provision to charge the man or men with adultery!! Why is only the woman at fault?
So this law was totally flawed and unjust at the outset itself even WITH the 4-male-witness rule.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

I am quite confused on what the previous law actually was and what arethe changes made.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

come up with some intelligent answers.

Haris, they are saying that a DNA test does not rule out the possibility of adultery.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

^ What does that mean?

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

If you dont understand something, it is better to not say anything rather than show your ignorance. 4 witnesses were NEVER required to prove a rape in a court in Pakistan. Try and take this on board if possible..4 witnesses were required to secure a HADD conviction, but not to produce a TAZIR conviction of the rape. DNA evidence was permissible in TAZIR rape cases.

Just to prove your 4 witness theory as incorrect, you should read non aligned articles.

The Zina Ordinance provides two different punishments for the same offence depending on the nature of the evidence against the accused. For the hadd punishment of rajm (stoning to death), the offensive act should have been witnessed by four male, Muslim witnesses of good repute. If, however, the offence is proved by any other form of evidence, the Court can award punishment that may include a prison sentence as well as whipping. The latter category of sentences is subsumed under the heading of tazir, the technical term in Islamic Law for punishments that fall in the discretion of the state. The popular perception of the Zina Ordinance, largely based on the image carried in the press, is that a raped woman must produce four male witnesses against the accused for a conviction. The legal position that a conviction leading to a tazir punishment can be maintained on the basis of other evidence, including that of the woman herself, is generally absent in the popular understanding of the Zina Ordinance.
http://www.southasianmedia.net/Magazine/Journal/islamisation_laws.htm

Re: Hadood ordinance Ammended!!

title: challo yaar, halwa kha kar gham ghalat karna paray ga

Re: Hadood ordinance Ammended!!

so u mean that they can not be civil to the opposition?
if Imran Khan wants to be a kurrak murghi and not be civil to others that s his business, but that is not how politics are run anywhere. moon phulla kar bethnay say kya hota hai.

and especially after opposition and govt has collaborated on something that was a national shame, why cant they jointly celebrate the fact that they made a positive change in the country’s laws.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

Actually, people if you notice, the death sentence is only for married couples engaging in adultery or rape. I do not know whether there is a death sentence for singles involved in rape.

But as I said, if you pay attention, for a married man to be convicted of adultery or rape, the hud is the same, death. The difficulty is on the woman part where you cannot confirm whether it was adultery or rape, in which case the hud may be poles apart. No punishment for getting raped but punishable by death if proven as adultery. If you look back in our history, in the Prophet SAW time no one was ever convicted for adultery but out of their own admission.

So permitting DNA testing absolutely eliminates confusion on the part of the man being involved or not, which is why all these Mullahs are jumping up and down but still a woman may get away if she is able to convince her adultery was a rape situation. So the issue should be how do you prove an adultery from a rape incase of a woman other than her own admission or very fine judicial logic.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

As is they (molvi party) have shown great intelligence when making laws

[quote]
Haris, they are saying that a DNA test does not rule out the possibility of adultery.
[/quote]
DNA is done to find out "who", not "how", this test is usually accompanied by other tests to find out "how" which can reveal if it was rape or otherwise.

Re: Hadood ordinance Amended!!

There is one ambiguity here though, the hadd punishment is only enforced when it is proven that intercourse takes place. Sorry for getting a little explicit here but one difficulty I see with DNA is that you cannot prove intercourse unless ejaculation took place, in which case neither rape not adultery can be proven without either confession or witnesses.