HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

How well Pakistanis have done in the last 60 years?

This is a question often posed in our chai parties, or any gathering of sorts. People seem to be so negative about Pakistan that we need to provide them a reality check. This check can be accomplished using empirical as well as formal methods. I call the empirical method as “border test”, and one of the possible formal methods is “budget factor”. The following essay elaborates on the two and then suggests some examples for Pakistan’s economic future.

Border test
What has a “border test” anything to do with Pakistan? Just to help you out, Look across Canada US border and you will see somewhat similar living. No border jumping, no illegal aliens dying to get in. Look at US Maxican border and situation is different.

This is what I call “border test”. This is the most effective and true test to compare Pakistan with its neighbors and you do not need a degree from Harvard to figure this one out.

I simply ask you to stand on the border and look at your neighboring areas all around Pakistan. That needs real work instead of cut and paste job from some Gross Domestic Product (GDP) numbering mumbo jumbo.

People just criticize Pakistan only for criticism sake. They say Pakistan is “far behind” compared to his “peers”. The best peers for anyone are his immediate neighbors. So I ask you to perform the border test and look for answers for the following:

Do you find 100 story sky scrappers on the other side of Sindh border?
Do you find better and shinier airports and mansions on the other side of Punjab border?
Do you see Iranian Balochis flying private jets on the other side of Balochi border?
Do you see canals filled with milk and honey on the other side of Sarhad border?

It doesn’t matter if India is big or small. If they are governing their territories better, it should have shown up in the last 60 years. If Afghanis were doing better job in governing their people, it should have shown up in 60 years. Same way if Iranians were better at managing their Balochistan, it must be evident after 60 years of Pakistani existence.

Pakistan’s critics must show some documentary evidence or go back and do more homework. I hate whiners especially those who whine about Pakistan.

Why GDP is not a good criterion to compare Pakistan with her neighbors

As far comparing Pakistan on per capita GDP, it is helpful to look at the numbers broadly rather than focusing on the absolute number because of different accounting methodologies, assumptions, base year etc. for example it cant be concluded that a country with per capita GDP of $900 is much better off than a country with per capita GDP of $930. What can be ascertained is that both countries would enjoy fairly similar standard of living which would be lower than that of a country with per capita GDP of say $1,500. [Thanks to fellow guppies for this paragraph]

Also important to remember that area now Pakistan was not exactly and industrial hub before partition. Fast forward to current times and Pak is now one of the biggest cotton, wheat and dairy producers in the world. And given the poverty in the rural areas and population dependent on agriculture, its very important for Pak to pay attention to this sector rather then getting caught in some sort of phony economic competition with India.

Annual Budget is a better metric that GDP

I’d dare to add different criterion that is relatively better (and hence realistic) for comparing different economies. It is the annual budget of a country. Yes there is a fudge factor in budgets as well so one has to take it with a grain of salt. However the fudge factor in annual budgets is relatively small compared to the GDP and other measures. This is due to many reasons:

  1. Budget numbers are small compared to GDP so hera phairy is smaller as well.
  2. Budget deals with revenues and expenses divided in specific categories
  3. Budget numbers are only for one year and must be updated every year at a predetermined time.

So a budget per person for country is a better measure about the state of economy compared to other measures.

Here are some examples of budget based comparisons (the figures are available on many sources such as CIA factbook).

Most of these numbers (income or expenses whichever is larger and rounded) are from 2006

  1. American budget is roughly $2660 billion / population 300 million
  2. Japanese budget ………….. $1650 billion / population 130 million
  3. Pakistani budget…$26 billion /… 160 million
  4. Indian budget …$145 billion/… .1,130 million
  5. China …$490 billion/…1,322 million
  6. Bangladesh $9 billion/… .150 million

**Budget factor: **
Budget/population (larger number means the better economy and higher taxes)

  1. USA ……..= 8.87
  2. Japan……. = 12.69
  3. Pakistan ….= 0.16
  4. Indian …= 0.13
  5. China……. = 0.37
  6. Bangladesh = 0.06

Times Pakistani budget (more than 1 good, less than 1 not good)

  1. USA = 54.56
  2. Japan = 78.11
  3. Pakistan = 1.00
  4. India = 0.79
    5.China = 2.28
  5. Bangladesh = 0.37

It simply shows that in future we have to do what Japanese have been doing since the end of WWII. Study them, copy them and our budget factor will soon be 78 times where we are now. This translates to our budget as whopping $2 trillion a year. Think about the wonders this level of budget could do our standard of living, our defense forces, our schools, and our road infrastructure.

However we must not do what India is doing. Their budget factor is 21% lower than Pakistan’s. And never ever do what Bangladesh has done, they are 63% lower than Pakistan’s.

Just for the sake of discussion, if we do what China is doing, we’ll roughly double our budget. That will show up as our budget to be around $50 billion a year.

So it is up to us to follow Japan, or may be China. But never India or Bangladesh (until Indian or Bangladesh ratio is more than 1).

Can we copy anything from our neighbors especially India?
Yes off course. Indians are blessed with few things that Pakistan should copy. Economy however is not one of them.

Here are India’s strengths.

  1. Indian nationalism (for internal cohesion at the expense of minorities)
  2. Indian humility (nice people with sidways shaking heads)
  3. Indian mega-industrialist dynasties (Tata, Birla, Mittels and the list goes on)
  4. Indian army as it is an exact replica of the Pak army.

Indian show-shaw-lism (socialism) and secularism are pathetic so I didn’t mention them.

Bottom line is that Pakistanis should be proud of what they have ( Pakistani mega-farmers, one of the finest armies in the world), and Pakistan’s prosperity that puts every neighbor to shame. Even Chinese province adjacent to Pakistan is not much better than Pakistani side. However Pakistani side is much more open.

Dear readers, you can see I have presented both simple and complex comparisons. In summary we should admire Pakistan for what it has, and strive to get what it doesn’t have. That’s what I call constructive attitude (instead of whining all the time - Mar gayee main baajee mar gayee).

** p.s. This essay came to be what it is now thanks to the discussions in gs. So thanks to everyone who either critiqued it or contributed in it.

**

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

“cotton, wheat and dairy” come under “agricultural products” not under “industrial products”, right?

BTW, according to thisdocument Pakistan is in top 6 importers of wheat, no? Where does Pakistan stand in dairy production globally?

I don’t want to sound pessimist, Pakistan has progressed a lot in last 60 years, there is no doubt. A lot of damage has been done by both civilian and military governments which hampered the growth, we might have been in really good shape had we not nationalised industries/institutes in 1970s (thank you Bhutto for shooting the nation in foot), then the exponential growth of corruption and militancy in 80s, then again corrupt regimes in 90s and still continuing.

If we can contain corruption, lawlessness then I don’t think Pakistan is far behind in its progress, but these two elements sort of define the social/moral strength and make or break someone’s belief in the nation IMO. Of course there are many other elements which account for the overall downfall of the governance, society but these two are at the top I think.

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

Excellent thread!! Parh kar kaafi khushi hui. :k: Haris Bhai. I agree with AntiObl brother/sister too- he has points. People just go to sites like wikipedia or something and see the numbers- I guess Pakistan has done well in last 60 years. Let us also not forget this great man who did a lot to bring Islamic values lost(thanks to aethists like Ayub/Bhutto) in us and making Pakistani military strong.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/imagehosting/thumb_4938846bfb4056db59.jpg

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/imagehosting/4938846bfb3f4bf35f.jpg

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/imagehosting/4938846bfb3c3219a0.jpg

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

No doubt, Ziaul Haq was one of the greatest man, probably very close to Bhutto, I am sure people like you will continue to salute him for life but I am very hopeful that a specie like yours is a rare one and I sincerely hope it becomes extinct for you can’t realize the damage caused to the nation by him. You only see “dramatic” steps by Zia like “no women on TV without dupatta” but you fail to see the weaponization of politicial parties, involvement of ISI/military in supporting retard elements like Altaf Hussein, you fail to see the spread of corruption and militancy and what not. Yes, thank you Ziaul Haq, (na)mard-e-momin (na)mard-e-haq Ziaul Haq Ziaul Haq, 11 years of illegal rule!. His traditions are being carried over by his son Ejazul Haq :clap:

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

Arrey kaptaan sahib, let us not forget its because of zia-ul-haq that India feels threatened of Pakistan. Bhutto would have made country like Netherlands or something- do you want that where people dont pray, girls walk without hijaab or guys listen to loud music. Had Zia would have been alive he would have taken the country to a different direction. Atleast Zia didn’t have 46 pre-marital relationships like Imran and he has faithful with his moti bhens jaisi biwi. Ejaz-Ul-Haq is a good guy too… He was in tears on Geo TV after Lal masjid- The good thing with Zia and Ejaz is that they are not corrupt and love(d) the country. My uncle who was in the Army described how jovial and easy-going Zia was and used to crack jokes with his juniors- he was a very brave soldier too! I dont think he was a buzdil commando like kala mushy.

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

haha

My top three leaders of Pakistan are:-

Quaid-e-Azam, Mohammed Ali Jinnah

[thumb=H]jinnah0_6431735.JPG[/thumb]

Quaid-e-Awam, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto

[thumb=H]ZAB0_5470365.JPG[/thumb]

General Pervez Musharraf

[thumb=H]Musharraf0_5048321.JPG[/thumb]

:jhanda: :jhanda: :jhanda:

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

So you think India is afraid of Pakistan because Pakistani people pray, girls walk with hijab and guys don’t listen to loud music? :hehe: bhai mian, aap konsi tehsil/chak se talluq rakhtay hayn?

Ziaul Haq only continued Bhutto’s tradition of Pakistan’s downfall. You are only happy because of his slogan-Islamisation, his Islamisation was just a slogan, nothing less nothing more.

Is Imran Khan prime minister/president of Pakistan? How did he figure in ‘governance’ of Pakistan? You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing someone’s wife with an animal (even if for size) especially someone who you so much love.

See, you continuously fail to see the corruption, it was Ejazul Haq who let Ghazi go with all the weapons/ammunition to his “jamia”, he is the one who continuously pushed (alongwith some ISI) Ghazi to continue with their crimes.

This is the only reason you love Zia, because your uncle painted good picture of him, otherwise you are completely ignorant of Zia’s “accomplishments” or lack thereof.

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

I am from Sheikhupura, Punjab teh: Nanakana Sahib. Aap kahan se ho? Aap ke dil ke andar zia ke liye itna zaher kiyoon bharra hua hai? Unless and until one changes social structure, nothing is going to change, Zia tried bringing religion in the lives of ordinary Pakistani so that they could become good muslims. Zia tackles Soviet invasion with mastery. I guess didn’t have a lot of ammunition with him in Lal masjid and his brother said after the capture that there were only a few AK-47 rifles and bombs etc. for self protection- they didn’t have a pile of weapons- so Ejaz-ul-haq didn’t do a bad job. Zia pushed for Sharia- had he implemented sharia, Pakistan would have become advanced like Saudi Arabia by now.

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

What you are seeing as “poison” is just an expression of disgust with what he did to Pakistan and Karachi, thats all.

Bringing religion in the lives of ordinary Pakistan? like how? The only thing he did in name of “Islam” was cover the women on media with “scarf/dupatta”, did that change society? The other thing he did was try to “Arabize” the country by adding Arabic as subject in classes, how much did that add up to learn “Quran” or “Islam”?

It wasn’t Zia, it was Akhtar Abdul Rehman who was the master mind from Pakistani side supporting CIA tackle Russian invasion of Afghanistan, try learning history from some books not your uncle.

Yeah, few RPGs, grenades and other weapons was there, but for self-defence against who? Indian army?

Saudi Arabia an advanced country? :rotfl: what “advancement” do they have to show for billions of oil barrels flowing out mother earth? Their labor still suffers because of lack/implementation of laws from “Saudis”, there tons of other issues but I don’t want to go there, lets just analyse ourselves without putting anyone else down.

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

What did Zia do to Karachi and Pakistan in general?? Care to explain please? You yourself are admitting that he introduced Arabic- I guess that’s a very good step. Every1 should know Arabic in Pakistan. I am sad I dont know- as a good muslim, we should all know Arabic and should talk in Arabic from time to time apart from Punjabi.

The weapons in Lal masjid were for self-defence against Qadianis as far as I know although I am not sure or DVD/Video shop owners whose shops were destroyed by Lal masjid ppl cud have taken revenge. Again, I am not exactly sure why the weapons were in the lal masjid.

Saudis(Arabs) gave Islam to the world, Captain Saab. They have built their country with their strength and one can’t miss to see advancements in Jeddah or Riyadh. They are a very friendly country and they honor muslim laborer from Pakistan and treat him nicely. Plus, a lot of arab sheikhs are trying to make Pakistan rich by adopting poor Pakistani kids, Orphans etc and/or donating large sums of money to built mosques.

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

Usually I just ignore your joke posts, but in this case I would ask you to spare a moment for the poor pakistani kids (many from your pUnjab) who are used as camel jockeys by your arab masters.

Re: 60 Years of Pakistan: Guiding Light, Hope and Inspiration

kitni baar bataaon? :smack: Look at what he did to Karachi, he raised MQM, provided them weapons and supported them, now they are a monster.

You should know the difference between spoken arabic as well as literature arabic (the one in Quran).

just like the Ghazis you know how to lie but you can’t back up your words, what were Qadianis doing to Lal Masjid for which they needed all that weaponry?

The DVD/video shop owners were far more peaceful than these Ghazi brothers and their militants, their shops were destroyed but they didn’t bomb the masjid/jamia hafsa in retaliation.

:rotfl: Saudis didn’t give us Islam, Saudis are the latest dacoit rulers installed in 1910s, there were no “Saudis” 1400 years ago.

The only “development” you see is because of oil money, you take away their oil they will become Congo, Swaziland etc.

Did your uncle tell you this as well? :rotfl: I lived there for 10 years, Pakistanis are at the bottom of their “respect” list… oh wait, we are not even on the list. They are the most racist nation I have ever seen.

Thats why you think they “respect” Pakistanis and donate “money”.

Re: Howwell has Pakistan done?

**How well has Pakistan done during the past 60 years?

With discussion on this subject initiated by antiobl in the other thread it seemed there should be a separate thread for it.
A good debate.

How can we evaluate Pakistan's performance during the past 60 years?
How well has Pakistan done?
If Pakistan has done well at all that is, because the common belief is that Pakistan hasn't done very well.

While at it let's also list and discuss areas where we think

a) Pakistan has done well
b) Pakistan has not done well at all
c) Pakistan has at times done well and at times poorly
d) Pakistan needs to focus most

Also. How do we visualize Pakistan in the next 60 years, in the year 2067?**

Re: HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

:smack:are yaar when you see other side of border, one side it is Big Desert Thar and other side it is Rann of Kutch and at the top it is mountaineous how can you see a skyscrapers there :CareBear: , that soil is not suitable to build skyscrapers

Re: HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

Finally a creative thread about Pakistan (notwithstanding the zia arguement between captain1 and moin which don't have anything to do with antiqobl's first one). I'll start my objections stating it is a well known trick of spinmasters to change the metrics and goalpost if they find the cause too tough and hopeless. Rejecting gdp, inventing things like border test etc is exactly that. 1st the border test - if peoiple sneaking into a neigboring country is the measure of success, that implies China is no better than Pakistan since there's no illegal immigration. Secondly mexico and usa do not have an enmity as here. The test therefore simoly doesn't hold water.2nd - annual budget is a very bad indictor to compare countries. Everyone except antiiobl know that what $1 can buy in NYC is completely different from what it can do in Karachi or elsewhere. Also the budget is a number controlled completely by the govt and not an indicator of how economy has performed. (Think about deficit budgets etc).The 3rd part (budget factor) that antiobl is using is simply a derivative of the budget and stands equally invalid therefore.The essay therefore may be given pts for creativity and motivation but fails on facts and sense.

Re: HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

:salam:

If your motto behind this thread was do tell Pakistani’s to start thinking positive and quit whining but do something to change it and fix their problems then I think I would promote your thread.

However on the content on how to compare and achieve progress I think it is very shallow and more symptomatic.

Still we need people to start thinking this way and build upon their achievements and have some respect for what they have achieved and quit whining over what they have not achieved yet. Get rid of people who are in the way of that progress and be thankful to Allah SWT that they are still better than many others.

Follow religion and also follow worldly progress in short.

And people who are debating Zia, Mush, Bhutto etc, please understand what was said in this thread. Quit complaining and highlight what are our achievements and how we can improve upon them. Determine what we do not have and how we get it.

Re: HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

^ mistating and exaggerating as part of motivation speech get applause but when people find out the lies, the depression that follows is worse than before.

Re: HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

Self pity is what we lack.

Re: HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

BTW for #3 Pakistan has similar industrialists/groups like Dewan, Saigol, Jang and many other for #4 they are NOT replica of each other.

I am not sure what criteria you used for comparing Pakistan army, but there is one contrast difference, as obvious as daylight, Indian army doesn't like to interfere in civilian matters whereas our army is hungry for power, power, power with no accountability.

Tariq Akhtar, US Resident... you can ignore my "discussion" with Moin, I just can't resist when someone tries to make a hero out of an ass.

Re: HOW WELL HAS PAKISTAN DONE?

thinking more positive is great, pakistan even yet isnt really competing on the global marketplace but we are very new entrants to industrialism. the figures at the moment are woeful, nothing can mask that. i was speaking to an elderly gentleman who has just returned from pakistan so i thought i'll quiz him about the current mentality and he told me many people still had a negative attitude towards work. also inflation (menghaiee) is going through the roof