Recently, French and esp. Parisians were advised by their government to learn some driving sense from British. They were also shown the courtesy of British drivers and French were shocked to see how British drivers stop to let people cross the road. It's all can be improved by educating masses in a better way.
Faisal yaar, the countries of the Persian gulf that mentioned (excluding Saudi Arabia), if we take all their population and bring it to Lahore, it will fit in Shadman Colony, and will still spare a lot of houses. We are talking about Lahore. Saudi Arabia is like a cemetery (call it Miani Sahib) of Lahore, except Saudi Arabia is twice as dead. So brother we can’t compare other places with Lahore (I am just using Lahore as an example, as I am very familiar with the driving scene there). In Qatar and Kuwait, you don’t have Rickshaw, Tangas, Motorcycles, Bicycles, Trucks, Cars, Tanks, Cows competing for space. If you bring those Arab Bedouin in Lahore and give them Rickshaw and Tangas and motorcycle to drive, see how long their discipline lasts. Besides they won’t even know how to read the road signs (not that that is a requirement). I hope you see where I am coming from.The whole organizational argument goes out the window when you try explaining the traffic scene of Lahore. Even traffic education is like a Band-Aid approach to fixing the real problems. It is only treating the symptoms. You can’t expect a population where only about 2% of the people own any kind of motor transport, think of hundreds of thousands in Lahore who only ride bicycles. Sure you can teach them traffic rules and stuff, but will they ever get to use them?
Traffic rules is not a big problem. There are other bigger pressing problems. You know that an average civil servant in Pakistan makes less money per month than electricity bill for running an airconditioner? I am sure you do. A WAPDA UDC makes 4000 rupees, that’s price for 10 meals at a restaurant. Ask them if they want orderly traffic on the streets or more money to eat meals? It’s a tough world.
NYA yaar.. you first mentioned Saudi Arabia in your earlier post, so I continued on that example. But the essence of the argument remains the same. Their bedouins are still capable of understanding lanes/lines and other traffic etiquette. The question is how did they teach these uneducated desert people to have traffic etiquettes on the road.
However, I am sure all your arguments will be music to the ears of all urban town planners in Pakistan. I bet in meeting after meetings, these people must give similar reasons to justify that (1) there can never be an improvement in our traffic system, (2) we are incapable of ever having a realistic chance of improving anything till we increase our country's GDP, (3) with an illiterate populace no one should expect any change in anything, and most importantly (4) even to talk about improving the traffic system is a waste of our resources cz its a hopeless cause anyway and we have bigger issues to deal with.
I, for one, feel differently. We have zillions of government departments, and each has different role to play. They can't all inter-mingle everything and blame it all on low per capita and high illiteracy. Each issue must be addressed, and if we think about it, there are bound to be solutions. There are abundance of highly educated, highly trained Pakistanis all over the world. Why should they not be brain-storming to address issues faced everyday by the man on the road.
Like khan_sahib mentioned, even Parisians are being told to have some kinda road manners. This is not something which we should sweep away in face of other issues.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
NYA yaar.. you first mentioned Saudi Arabia in your earlier post, so I continued on that example. But the essence of the argument remains the same. Their bedouins are still capable of understanding lanes/lines and other traffic etiquette. The question is how did they teach these uneducated desert people to have traffic etiquettes on the road.,
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huh bub saudi arabia...driving etiquettes? every single weekend when the home soccer team won, their would be several fatal accidents. people drive like maniacs on roads as well as highways.
also, the reason the traffic there is not as bad as it could be..better infrastructure and the danda of shurta (cops), teh fact that women ar enot allowed to drive may contribute to it too ;) (lemme prepare to get beaten up by Ana now)
please go to saudi arabia and see those manners yourself, theya re no model country when it comes to driving.
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*Originally posted by Jagjeevan: *
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now thats a "to the point" post..literally. :D
I think our general attitude that "its not cheating if u dont get caught" should change to some sort collective dignity.. Since not many people want such change, so it should be enforced by the government.. if everything is left for God to do there is no need for govts/laws/muslim-countries as opposed to non.. You see we tend to believe that "only God is watching when cops/other drivers are not" which is true.. With such mentality retribution will only come after death.. government has to make people believe that the transition to retribution can be expedited (whether cops were watching or not).. Also a stiff penalty here on earth and punishment from God is whatever God wills.. Such attitude adjustment that govt will sooner or later catch up if u do break the law.. Also the trust that govt thrives on Justice and is above race/gender/color/religion.. if our justice system can achieve such credibility that alone shall cure many ills found in our society.. But sticking to the topic.. i propose "How am i driving and the Ph#" stickers on the back of at least every commercial vehicle.. so its not only a hide'n'seek matter between cops and the law-breaker.. in this way it will be more of a collective thing since anyone can report the ill-behaviors on the road..
Man made laws and man has to enforce them.. dont wait for God to enforce them for us..
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
now thats a "to the point" post..literally. :D
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sorry! I thought I wrote something to the effect that the lack cleanliness and road sense is something pakistan also seems to have inherited from India. either someone in power didn't like something in this innocuous but factual comment or I did something to blank the same out.
but it is a fact - you drive in Mumbai ...may be in the selected highways there is some semblance of sticking to your lane - but in most other parts of the country you gusav through any gap (real or perceived) in the traffic!
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*Originally posted by Jagjeevan: *
either someone in power didn't like something in this innocuous but factual comment or I did something to blank the same out.
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you prolly did something to blank it out otherwise if someone would have edited it, there would be an automatic note showing edited by whom and when. dunn be so paranoid :)
mumbai sounds a lot like karachi in terms of traffic. motorbikes squeeze through any space they find and even rickshaws, teh drivers forget that although they have one wheel in teh front, that there are 2 wheels in the back :)
Re: How to improve?
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Is the answer lies in the following:
- Better driving tests to ensure only good drivers get license?
- Making sure there is no corruption to get drivers license?
- Get more traffic cops on the road to develop this good driving etiquettes through tickets and challans?
- Better roads, less congestion, less road rage?
Any opinions
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we dont have driving tests do we?
n as far as the corruption is concerned....it'll remain as long as there is poverty!
u give the police guy 10 rupees or a cigarette n he'll let u off without a challan!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
you prolly did something to blank it out otherwise if someone would have edited it, there would be an automatic note showing edited by whom and when. dunn be so paranoid :)
mumbai sounds a lot like karachi in terms of traffic. motorbikes squeeze through any space they find and even rickshaws, teh drivers forget that although they have one wheel in teh front, that there are 2 wheels in the back :)
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that's true of auto-rikshas also (3 wheelers). they many a times drive in such packed formations that from a higher seat (such as a bus) if you look outside it'd seem like walrusses beaching! I sometimes have wondered how the roads gets dirty at all because there is no space for dirt to seep through!
as to pan spitting - don't knowck that too much. some walls in some old sections of Mumbai are held together only by layers of movie posters and pan spit. In fact in many of them I don't think there is any brick or mortar inside any more!
Faisal, a few points:
NYA yaar.. you first mentioned Saudi Arabia in your earlier post, so I continued on that example. But the essence of the argument remains the same. Their bedouins are still capable of understanding lanes/lines and other traffic etiquette. The question is how did they teach these uneducated desert people to have traffic etiquettes on the road. <<<
Give them Arabs the same kind of traffic variety as found in Pakistan, and see how long their etiquette lasts. Why do you think that Pakistanis who drive overseas quickly learn how to drive in the lane? Do you think that all of sudden something happens to them soon as they move out of Pakistan?
However, I am sure all your arguments will be music to the ears of all urban town planners in Pakistan. I bet in meeting after meetings, these people must give similar reasons to justify that (1) there can never be an improvement in our traffic system, (2) we are incapable of ever having a realistic chance of improving anything till we increase our country's GDP, (3) with an illiterate populace no one should expect any change in anything, and most importantly (4) even to talk about improving the traffic system is a waste of our resources cz its a hopeless cause anyway and we have bigger issues to deal with. <<<
Here I totally agree with you, these my friend are the same people who wanted a separate country based upon religion. Go figure.
Now I would like to ask you one question. When you talk about driving in lanes, what kind of roads are you talking about? What kind of traffic do you have in mind? Lahore for example, has at least five times as many (if not more) motor bikes, Rickshaws than Cars. Are you suggesting that there should be only one lane (on a half lane road) for cars and the remaining for the other traffic to share? Sounds good to me. Make 6 smaller lane (painted if possible) for motorcycles, and let cars drive in just one lane. Will take about 8 hours to get from Lahore airport to Neela Gunbad. Not everyone is fortunate to have a car, so to fix the problem for only 1 % of the population is like going to a surgeon for a pimple on your face.
On motorway in Pakistan, drivers do drive in lanes. Every 3 mile or so when you see a car, it is usually in lane.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bilal_Tarar: *
n as far as the corruption is concerned....it'll remain as long as there is poverty!
u give the police guy 10 rupees or a cigarette n he'll let u off without a challan!
[/QUOTE]
that poverty-corruption link is there but not as strong as people say it to justify police corruption. I have a lot of respect and sympathy for the cops, specially traffic police cuz they get abuses hurled at them and stand and do their job in those hot filthy conditions. Thank god the govt is giving them masks to protect them from all the smoke.
anyways, coming back to the poverty issue, while I am in full support of increasing police wages, they also need to start finding better ppl (linked with salary and benefits) and have better enforcement of anti-corruption measures. its not just poverty but also cops knowing thatthey can get away with stuff, abuse of power. poverty is one part, but not the one root cause for this.
Jagjeevan
I was talking to auto-rikshaws, I think cycle-rikshaws were abolished some time ago. I have not seen one in Pakistan, but there may be some in rural areas.
I wonder if we send our rikshaw drivers to formula one how they will do.
Interesting points. I'd rather focus on the solutions, than to recount problems, which we do so at every available opportunity anyway.
One solution maybe to improve public transportation system, which will result in less traffic on the streets (by presumably enticing people to leave their cars at home), and this providing more space on the streets for the remaining vehicles. I think, in addition to this, once the public transportation is drastically improved, the government should levy much higher automobile taxes, to serve as a disincentive for people to buy more cars and drive them on the roads. Singapore, although much smaller, has conceptually the same model. Get cars off the road.
Enhance police qualifications and improve their status. Make it clear, that no one is above law (sounds so neat, but will be very hard to implement considering the prevailent thinking)
*]Education, education, education!
More ideas?
Faisal, there already is a huge import tax and the gasoline price is among one of the highest in the world, and people still drive cars (rich people will contine to do it). But the majority still drives Motorcycles. Now you are talking about modernizing and upgrading the traffic enforcement (thru higher wages, and better education and training),,,well that’s needed in every discipline, and not just in traffic enforcement. Everyone in Pakistan can do with higher wages and better training. As I said earlier, the problems are inter-connected, and you cannot try to solve “one problem” at a time, that’s why the buzz world these days among economists is “integrated policies”. Trust me it works. It’s being practiced in countries in South America, in south East Asia, and east and West Africa among other places. The results of such policies are a phenomenal success in terms of payback and a steady path to getting out of poverty and dependence.
I know you want to talk about traffic, but if you ask the majority of Pakistanis, they are happy with the traffic and it will probably be the last item on the things they want to see improved in the country. I was in Faisalabad and few months ago, and my cousin was motorcycling me around to visit relatives. The roads there sucked big time, but he was so happy that the roads have gotten so much better and that the previous government actually did a great job widening the roads. It all depends who you talk to. It is my experience that some of us live overseas for two month and return back to Pakistan and find that everything is decaying. I wonder why don’t we realize it when we live there? All of sudden we start noticing pollution, garbage in the streets, unsanitary plates at the local Dahi Bhalla stand….
NYA, actually I like the term "integrated policies" as long as its not used as a excuse not to do anything. I suspect a lot of bureacracies will like it for that very reason.
People in Pakistan face many problems. High illiteracy, high unemployment, environmental pollution, no access to drinking water, famine, congested streets, corruption at all levels and over all bad management by our bureacracy are just some of the everyday problems. Yeah, an integrated approach sounds very nice, but only when it actually accomplishes something.
Whether one by one, or integrated, we should devote more of our energies in brainstorming the solutions, providing them to those in the decision-making positions and doing our part in helping implement these solutions. Giving up is the easy way out. Atleast thats how I think.
So what is the solution? Or is this thread another one for the, "woe is us" archive?
Faisal, I am in connect with many a technocrats in Islamabad, and number of them my ex class mates. They are all aware what needs to be done, and welcome any input from whatever sources. The bottomline is not just the commitment of people, but the piece of the cake. The allocation of resources is a huge (main) problem. We still spend less on education per capita compared to 9/10th of the world. Our fiscal policies are driven by greed of the influential class, and our economic policies are gathering dust in the secretariat because such and such province does not like such and such item. Sure we can still look for creative solutions to our problems such as traffic congestion. But the question is why not try to address the reasons that result in creating such problems?
Chaltahai,,,i think if not for solution, this is a good thread to highlight what different people think the problem is.
But NYA, this has been neaten to death for like five years..is there no solution? I am sure as quick as people are to condemn masturbation or spout out facts against the west, they mustn;t hold back on such trivialities as a plan for the motherland. :(