Ehsan Bhai, can you suggest any alternative to Mush? No one wants to live in Past but if all the struggle is JUST TO BRING BACK the culprits of Past, I'll be more than happy with lesser evil.
If you dont have a fresh alternative and you want to bring back one of NS BB QAZI dumbs, its like you are ready to forgive their mistakes but is not ready to forgive Mush's mistakes
are you denying any of what I wrote in my first post.If not, than how is he any better than them. if not prove to me that he has not done these things or what Minerva wrote.
its NOT the past, is it..
it is the past kartoot of our present choices
i mean right now who gives a rats ass what liaquat ali did, or gen zia did, or ayub did. now that would be getting stuck in the past.
but here we are talking about the track record of your current choices.
if we want to put blinders on thats fine
you dont have a new crop of leaders, you have teh current regime and the previous 2 regimes.
ignoring what was done then is not only naive but its dangerous.
on the contrary it is telling ppl that no matter what you did, as long as you are more popular than the current guy, then all is forgiven.
and I ask the same question. so where does that leave pakistan?
well who has given those two leader a chance again - Mush in his desperation to hold on to power has done a deal with BB. So who is the guilty party - Mush of course.
ehsan uncle, mush does enjoy the tacit support of US/UK govts. even tho on paper they say they want to see a democracy return to pakistan, but its quite obvious that for their own interests they want to see mush hold on to the power as long as possible and throw in a traitor like BB (with statements like where she will allow US forces to attack inside pakistan and offer her butt to them as well as bonus) in the mix and it will make sure their interests are always taken care of.
personally i would like to see him walk away from this right and retire before he is forces to retire in some mysterious way.
and fine musharraf is wrong in making us deal with these goons, but what about the alam bardaar of jamhooriat. the political parties cant get rid of these clowns? why not?
I already said about that, addint to that these guys are "known" vote making machines so why not?
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they depend on military to force their leader out, they cant do it themselves?
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It doesn't have to be "military" to force their leader out, rather make it part of constitution that any participating party should hold elections within certain period of time and no "chief" can stay "chief" for lets say 8 years (bye bye Bibi, Altaf, Qazi etc)
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so the 'choices' are choices not just because musharraf made a huge error and took down that rule, but also because our thekay daar if jamhooriat dont have the balls or teh sincerity to do what is right. but why would they shoot themselves in teh foot, their dana paani in govt is written because theya re aligned with these ppl.
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One of the other reasons is that government has turned a corrupt politician into a hero (forced exile), he should've been taken to court, prove his crimes then may be people would've given up on him.
well thank you for reading my mind sarkaar. it was not an attempt to derail, it was a reality check.
and experience has taught me that people dont like reality checks. thus my thread about who people would support has not seen input from some :)
It wasn't a reality check more an attempt to justify the unjustifiable acts of Mush and co.
little bit of perspective does help. musharraf was given three years by the supreme court after the coup to get the political house in order. considering that musharraf was a military chief and not a political leader, i think he has been successul in achieving his goal especially if you consider pakistan's role in gwot which has hampered musharraf domestically more than anything else . because of musharraf leaders of the two main parties were sidelined for eight years and there is little to suggest that either of the two will be allowed to become pm. also both parties have been weakened which is another positive.
now that musharraf can devote more time to politics, he will be in a better position to provide political leadership and carve out an alternative to existing parties. in the short run however musharraf will have to deal with the existing cast of jokers because otherwise he will be opening too many fronts. pathans are already in arms over army in tribal areas. musharraf could not afford to alienate sindhis by taking on ppp . similarly if he cracked down on mqm, karachi would have turned into a sore spot for him. moreover musharraf had tried to weaken bb's hold on ppp by offering makhdoom fahim the job of pm after last election. however bb did not give permission because she does not want to create rivals to her leadership within ppp. its a sad comment on pak politics that parties claim to be democratic but are in reality nothing more than cult of personalities.
musharraf not being a magician cannnot alter the psyche of awam. the other option for him would be to build the political system from scratch by getting rid of all the senior politicians. that would be a very risky option. the best course of action is to bring about gradual change. given the turn around in the economy, mush's strategy has worked well so far despite incorporating corrupt element into the fold of government.
It is naive and wrong to suggest that Musharraf's supporters give excuses to his mistakes. Let's get over the 'holier than thou' mentality. Past leaders references is necessary as it helps us understand perspective. Moreover, to be fair mention some of the good things, which are not hard to find.
No one is denying the wrong doings, but lets not look for scape goats and go on witch hunt. We are Pakistanis and only we can make the country better. After a long time, Pakistani politics is focused on issues rather ethnicity and we should continue on same path.
For Musharraf supporters like me, he is not a name or person rather mentality. He has made Pakistan a better place, moderate and patriot. He has change the language and land scape of our country, which is progress and we need just that.
Ehsan Bhai, can you suggest any alternative to Mush? No one wants to live in Past but if all the struggle is JUST TO BRING BACK the culprits of Past, I'll be more than happy with lesser evil.
I will ask again, before 1999, did we know about Musharraf's "awesome" leadership skills? The constitution had the provision of "2 term limit" but then Musharraf eased it out, why? We don't have to look at the same idiots over and over again if we can keep the laws we make.
I will ask again, before 1999, did we know about Musharraf's "awesome" leadership skills? The constitution had the provision of "2 term limit" but then Musharraf eased it out, why? We don't have to look at the same idiots over and over again if we can keep the laws we make.
Who is giving Mush clan chit? I have always called him a lesser evil as compare to NS,BB, QAZI and others. My point was that people of Pakistan will only come out for a change IF they can see a clear alternative.
little bit of perspective does help. musharraf was given three years by the supreme court after the coup to get the political house in order. considering that musharraf was a military chief and not a political leader, i think he has been successul in achieving his goal
which political house he got in order? and in what kind of order? can you elaborate? I know you have history of running away from threads, hope this time you will reply. Negotiating with old criminals? or letting go of the criminal he knocked off? or pardoning all old criminals?
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because of musharraf leaders of the two main parties were sidelined for eight years and there is little to suggest that either of the two will be allowed to become pm. also both parties have been weakened which is another positive.
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If "pardon" ordinance go ahead, what do you think will BB do? Sit on sidelines and clap for Musharraf's presidency?
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pathans are already in arms over army in tribal areas. musharraf could not afford to alienate sindhis by taking on ppp . similarly if he cracked down on mqm, karachi would have turned into a sore spot for him.
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So it means Musharraf has really failed to win anything on political front if he can't face a single "ethnicity"! He simply can't stand in political arena without 'wardi', fact.
It is naive and wrong to suggest that Musharraf's supporters give excuses to his mistakes. Let's get over the 'holier than thou' mentality. Past leaders references is necessary as it helps us understand perspective. Moreover, to be fair mention some of the good things, which are not hard to find.
No one is denying the wrong doings, but lets not look for scape goats and go on witch hunt. We are Pakistanis and only we can make the country better. After a long time, Pakistani politics is focused on issues rather ethnicity and we should continue on same path.
For Musharraf supporters like me, he is not a name or person rather mentality. He has made Pakistan a better place, moderate and patriot. He has change the language and land scape of our country, which is progress and we need just that.
very well said. i was working as a foreign exchange trader in pak when musharraf took over. back then sbp governor had a heart attack everytime the country had to make oil purchase. and that was the time when oil was trading at $20/barrel. these days oil trading at $80 and yet our reserves keep increasing. pak has gone from being bankrupt to a country that has taken serious crises such a earthquake in its stride.
It is naive and wrong to suggest that Musharraf's supporters give excuses to his mistakes. Let's get over the 'holier than thou' mentality. .
Works both ways, Mush supporters need to get over this mentality as well that Mush is the best thing since slice bread. The reality is that he is the biggest liar in the history of Paksitan. Don't believe me, look at the promises he made when he came into power and how he has reneged on them and all to keep himself in power. He is a power crazy dangerous ruler.
Who is giving Mush clan chit? I have always called him a lesser evil as compare to NS,BB, QAZI and others. My point was that people of Pakistan will only come out for a change IF they can see a clear alternative.
I don't think anybody can give clean chit to Musharraf, the point I made is that nobody knew that Musharraf can provide better leadership (for those who think he is better) then without letting other people chances how can we know that there is no alternative. With that "2 term limit" rule in effect, we knew that atleast two haramkhors can't make it, but it was probably unacceptable to Mushy that he eased out that rule making those 2 available as choices.
Besides, he isn't doing anything to help "democracy" setup and prosper, he is playing his own games.
captain1, look at the results of last elections which were held because of supreme court requirement. musharraf had to work with politicians elected from those elections. it took one year for the first assembly session to take place. the reason it took so long was because musharra was trying to come to arrangements with diferent parties including ppp. reality was that he had to deal with people who were elected rather than the politicians who he wished had been elected.
Works both ways, Mush supporters need to get over this mentality as well that Mush is the best thing since slice bread. The reality is that he is the biggest liar in the history of Paksitan. Don't believe me, look at the promises he made when he came into power and how he has reneged on them and all to keep himself in power. He is a power crazy dangerous ruler.
Ok, for last time. Mush is not the best thing since slice bread. However, he has done an admirable job in handling Pakistan since '99. Pakistan is in midst of a change because of him. People are being empowered and we need a leader who has the experience and intelligence to guide us through tough time. Iraq and Afghanistan war will be there for next 10 year the least and latest news suggest that United States is planning bombing campaigns against Iran's bomb making factories. We need a leader who can hold the country together. Inshallah during these times we will see a person emerge from the dull and pathetic culture of Pakistan politics who will bring about the change in the minds of politicians and give the much needed alternative for our politics to move forward.
people keep looking at someone’s pocket to judge how good he is… keep it up man, I am sure people lick Saudi boots too.