How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

Thats just baseless. I am speaking without assumptions, you are the one who is suggesting he has less than perfect grasp of language, when you say that he would talk about an anomaly as if it represented the class. When ordinary people say 'birds fly' they dont mean the ostrich. It is perfectly believable that this is how you talk, but it is not believable that Allama Iqbal, a person quite well versed with Urdu, would talk like that.

I take his quote as he expressed it, you take it as you believe yourself.

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

oh and with respect to his poem on Hindustan, he wrote that poem well before partition, well before he formulated his two-nation theory, in 1910. there is no reason why he wouldnt once find it completely appropriate to write patriotic poetry about his country even if twenty years or so later he advocated its partition.

[diwana]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

Thats just baseless. I am speaking without assumptions, you are the one who is suggesting he has less than perfect grasp of language, when you say that he would talk about an anomaly as if it represented the class. When ordinary people say 'birds fly' they dont mean the ostrich. It is** perfectly believable** that this is how you talk, but it is not believable that Allama Iqbal, a person quite well versed with Urdu, would talk like that.

I take his quote as he expressed it, you take it as you believe yourself.

That is not the answer to my post.

What do you think of first part of the shayr above?

Do you agree with

*Deen e kafir fikr o tadbeer e jahad
*
Keep avoiding. ;)

I said, like statistics, poetry is not solid science either.

You seem to have concrete mind my friend. Jo Shairy mein parha Woh Samajh Liya. You take poetry literally I do not. (It is an insult to a poet if his poetry is taken literally)

What do you mean by his words as Sare jahan Se Accha Hindutan hamara?

You take his words as perfectly believable since he was well versed in the language?

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

if you read shikwa, he did believe that kafir, broadly speaking western kafir, did have ascendancy and were leading in spheres of thought. that shairy is often not literal is not disputed. however it is mere speculation for you to insist that Iqbal is referring to a ‘minority of a minority’ when there is nothing indicated in the shair to say so. That being the case, the non-speculative, grounded in basic language interpretation, would be that this is a reference to the archtypical mulla, and not some anomaly of your own creation.

Wrt saray jahan sai acha… like I said, when he said those words, he believed them. If you read its history, he wrote it before he went to Germany, where he became more of a Muslim nationalist (and after which he did most of the poetry relevant to us Pakistanies). He later disavowed this poem:

In spite of its creator’s disavowal of it, Saare Jahan Se Achcha has remained popular in India for over a century.

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

oh and its completely retarded to edit your post, add bits to it, and then say 'you didnt answer', 'keep avoiding'. i will need to start quoting your posts, every time i reply, i look up to see something else in your post.

[diwana]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@ravage

if you read shikwa, he did believe that kafir, broadly speaking western kafir, did have ascendancy and were leading in spheres of thought. that shairy is often not literal is not disputed. however it is mere speculation for you to insist that Iqbal is referring to a ‘minority of a minority’ when there is nothing indicated in the shair to say so. That being the case, the non-speculative, grounded in basic language interpretation, would be that this is a reference to the archtypical mulla, and not some anomaly of your own creation.

Wrt saray jahan sai acha… like I said, when he said those words, he believed them. If you read its history, he wrote it before he went to Germany, where he became more of a Muslim nationalist (and after which he did most of the poetry relevant to us Pakistanies). He later disavowed this poem.

Hence not all what he said be considered literally.
Only a fool will think he neant All Mullahs. Right?

Then you came a little closer to me by saying he meant the median kind.

You need to come further since what you are saying is

1- In a perfectly symmetrical bell curve, half of mullahs are fake. Not true. In that case we would be seeing one of two on average being fake. In reality not even one in four are fake. A lot of muslims witness that in their lives.

2- In an skewed population of mullahs, that median may be anywhere. so I do not think you meant median of skewed bell curve.

Both ways you are wrong when saying “he talked about median residing mullahs”. Yo just made it up to make a point. Got it?

---

So do you or do you not agree with:

Deen e kafir fikr o tadbeer e jahad

Third time

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

Hence not all what he said be considered literally. Only a fool will think he neant All Mullahs. Right?

And only a fool will keep defending 'All Mullahs', when he is the only one talking about 'All Mullahs'.

[quote]

Then you came a little closer to me by saying he meant the median kind.

You need to come further since what you are saying is

1- In a perfectly symmetrical bell curve, half of mullahs are fake. Not true. In that case we would be seeing one of two on average being fake. In reality not even one in four are fake. A lot of muslims witness that in their lives.

2- In an skewed population of mullahs, that median may be anywhere. so I do not think you meant median of skewed bell curve.

Both ways you are wrong when saying "he talked about median residing mullahs". Yo just made it up to make a point. Got it?

[/quote]

with respect to both 1 and 2, those are your opinions on what the 'fake' Mullahs are. Im not sure what fakery has to do with anything, where the question of them being fake came from, and what standards we are judging fakeness against. Your attempts at statistical definition are laughable.. the bell curve wont mean that 'half of mullas are fake' (why?!). Suffice it to say, in everyday discourse neither median, nor typical are hard to understand words.

You wish to obfuscate the issue when it is very plain and simple. Iqbal referred to Mullas as a class. No he wasnt referring to every single Mullah on Earth. Simultaneously there is no basis to assume that he was excluding most mullas and only referring to the mullay YOU find objectionable. The common sense view would be that just as I say birds fly and dont mean Ostrich and that is easy to understand for most people, without expecting people to launch into speculations on how I could mean Ostrich, how birds might not be literal, how we might want to consider the distribution of birds yada yada yada.. Iqbal says Din-e-Mullah fee sabilillah fasad. Its a simple misra, without any qualifiers that would leave room for your interpretive dance.

[quote]

---

So do you or do you not agree with:

Deen e kafir fikr o tadbeer e jahad

Third time ;)
[/QUOTE]

I agree to the extent that intellectual and technological endeavour is in the hands of those whom Iqbal would regard as 'kafir'. I am more of a fan of the second misra, has a real ring of truth to it.

[diwana]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@ravage

And only a fool will keep defending ‘All Mullahs’, when he is the only one talking about ‘All Mullahs’.

**Never defended all Mullahs merely said there are fake mullahs and real ones. Those who are real are not talked about sadly. That is what I said. I know you do not know how to scroll so helped you there. **

with respect to both 1 and 2, those are your opinions on what the ‘fake’ Mullahs are. Im not sure what fakery has to do with anything, where the question of them being fake came from, and **what standards we are judging fakeness against. **

If you do not know then why even worry about discussing about them my educated friend?

What gives you even a slight bit of right to even talk about mullahs and when you do not even know what real or fake could mean?

Either you are pretendng to be naive or are really naive. Which one is it???

Your attempts at statistical definition are laughable.. the bell curve wont mean that ‘half of mullas are fake’ (why?!). Suffice it to say, in everyday discourse neither median, nor typical are hard to understand words.

In what context you used word median?

I predict, you will come up with third answer since two are refuted.

You wish to obfuscate the issue when it is very plain and simple. Iqbal referred to Mullas as a class.

Says someone who does not even know what mullah means as real or fake one.

No he wasnt referring to every single Mullah on Earth.

There you go. Great.

Simultaneously there is no basis to assume that he was excluding most mullas and only referring to the mullay YOU find objectionable.

**You mean he was INCLUDING most mullahs? **

**If so then how so? Did he tell you so? **

I mean have you read his other parts of poetry? He would not include most mullahs in this category.

The common sense view would be that just as I say birds fly and dont mean Ostrich and that is easy to understand for most people, without expecting people to launch into speculations on how I could mean Ostrich, how birds might not be literal, how we might want to consider the distribution of birds yada yada yada.. Iqbal says Din-e-Mullah fee sabilillah fasad. Its a simple misra, without any qualifiers that would leave room for your interpretive dance.

**Yes, as he also says something about musalman being bad, did he mean most muslims? I have given yo thatexample before. **

**My friendm he only talked about fake and minority of mullahs. Period. **

I agree to the extent that intellectual and technological endeavour is in the hands of those whom Iqbal would regard as ‘kafir’. I am more of a fan of the second misra, has a real ring of truth to it.

**Not so fast. You deliberately omitted second part of this first misra. And also taking cover by saying you are "more fan of the second misra. **

Admiit ravage, you have no real substance when discuss.

1-You use your signature as a general rule but deny it.

2-You used word median and any person who knows simple statistics, knows in a symmetrical curve that means 50%.

3- You say you have no idea about who is fake and what context real or fake mullah term will be used.

4- You deliberately ommited the second part of first misra.

5- You say you are more of a fan of second misra which is basically saying that you do choose what you like without reading the full context. And you are trying to avoid making comment on

tadbeer e Jahad part.

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@diwana

Never defended all Mullahs merely said there are fake mullahs and real ones. Those who are real are not talked about sadly. That is what I said. I know you do not know how to scroll so helped you there.

Its irrelevant. I never made any statements about ‘all’ Mullahs. Therefore any discussion that centers around ‘all’ Mullahs is completely irrelevant and uninteresting for me. Please dont include me in your thoughts about all Mullahs. When you say things like:

@diwana

No he wasnt referring to every single Mullah on Earth.

There you go. Great.

That gives a false impression to you that you have proved something I was contesting, whereas you have simply affirmed something that was never in dispute, and that is a completely uninteresting and irrelevant discussion for me.

If you do not know then why even worry about discussing about them my educated friend?
What gives you even a slight bit of right to even talk about mullahs and when you do not even know what real or fake could mean?
Either you are pretendng to be naive or are really naive. Which one is it???

The question of ‘fake’ and ‘real’ is one you’ve started. Its a silly characterization, makes molvies sound like goods produced in China. Right/wrong, correct/incorrect, mental/normal, fasadi/anamolous are fine by me

In what context you used word median?

I predict, you will come up with third answer since two are refuted.

I dont even know what ‘two’ you are referencing. Its very simple, I used median and typical (every time) in close proximity, and that should give you an indication of how to understand the word. Please google the wordstypical and median, and understand that when people say typical that does not mean ‘minority of a minority’.

Says someone who does not even know what mullah means as real or fake one.
You mean he was INCLUDING most mullahs?
If so then how so? Did he tell you so?
I mean have you read his other parts of poetry? He would not include most mullahs in this category.

That sounds like a it is so because I say it is so statement. I wouldnt go so far as to characterize majority vs minority.. I’ll stick with the word typical, since it has less assumptions, and has a clear, English-language meaning. A typical person is Han Chinese, but a majority of people are not Han Chinese.

Theres plenty of poetry by Iqbal critical of Mullay, and in no way is it specified that hes talking about a ‘minority of minority’. See here for a collection of Iqbal poetry specifically criticizing the influence of Mullay.

ON EXPOSING CHARACTER OF SO CALLED MUSLIM SCHOLARS

just one example:

Ishq say paida nawa hai zindagi main zer-o-bam
Ishq say mitti ki tasweeron main soz-e-dam badam
Aey Musalman! apney dil say pooch, mullah say na pooch
Ho gaya Allah kay bandon say kyon khali Haram

another one:

Dil hai Musalman tera na mera
Tu bhi namazi, main bhi namazi
Main janta hun anjaam uss ka
Jis maarkey main Mullah ho ghazi

oh.. and another one

Andaz-e-bayan agarchey mera shokh nahin hai
Shayad kay terey dil main uter jayye meri baat
Wo mazhab-e-mardan-e-khud agah-o-Khuda mast
Ye mazhab-e-mullah-o-jamadat-o-nabatat

:hehe:

1-You use your signature as a general rule but deny it.

A general rule to the extent that it is Allama Iqbal’s view of typical mullay.

2-You used word median and any person who knows simple statistics, knows in a symmetrical curve that means 50%.

Lol. A median means 50%. 50% of what? You’re such a dolt, symmetric curves are not symmetric because the mean is 50% or that 50% of the distribution is equal to the mean. You can make claims like 68% of the population lies within one standard deviation from the mean and 95% lie within two standard deviations… not 50% of the population is equal to the mean.

Your overconfidence never ceases to amaze me.

4- You deliberately ommited the second part of first misra.

5- You say you are more of a fan of second misra which is basically saying that you do choose what you like without reading the full context. And you are trying to avoid making comment on

tadbeer e Jahad part. :hehe:

Thats a lie. I commented twice on the first misra. Nevertheless, if you had any grounding in Urdu you would know that it is perfectly alrite to quote misray instead of complete shairs. ‘bari dair kardi mehrbaan atay atay’ etc.

[Jafri]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

Jeo ravage waalon

[diwana]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@ravage

Its irrelevant. I never made any statements about ‘all’ Mullahs. Therefore any discussion that centers around ‘all’ Mullahs is completely irrelevant and uninteresting for me. Please dont include me in your thoughts about all Mullahs. When you say things like:

**Here the discussion merges. Neither me nor you talk about all. **

That gives a false impression to you that you have proved something I was contesting, whereas you have simply affirmed something that was never in dispute, and that is a completely uninteresting and irrelevant discussion for me.

I asked you earlier what problem you had with my position that there are minority of minority and fake mullahs. That is being discussed now.

The question of ‘fake’ and ‘real’ is one you’ve started. Its a silly characterization, makes molvies sound like goods produced in China. Right/wrong, correct/incorrect, mental/normal, fasadi/anamolous are fine by me

**Again you have failed to get what fake mullah means and lets just use your terms here.

Wrong, incorrect, mental, fasadi ‘mullahs’ are Fake!

Did that help?

**
I dont even know what ‘two’ you are referencing. Its very simple, I used median and typical (every time) in close proximity, and that should give you an indication of how to understand the word. Please google the wordstypical and median, and understand that when people say typical that does not mean ‘minority of a minority’.

**The post 46 and yor answer in 47 talks about these two points.

Now it is you to prove these fake ones are so common that you are hell bent on using term like median or typical.**

That sounds like a it is so because I say it is so statement. I wouldnt go so far as to characterize majority vs minority.. I’ll stick with the word typical, since it has less assumptions, and has a clear, English-language meaning. A typical person is Han Chinese, but a majority of people are not Han Chinese.

**I almost fell off the chair looking at this video telling me a 28 years old Han is typical person in the world.

Did you even read why these dorky people think this person is typical person in a population of 7 billion?

Forget about 7 billion, just read the reasons they gave.

If you and I sit at home and change those parameters, even you and I can become typical persons in this world. (I know it is a stretch but the essential point remains same)

Another absurdity you brought in simple discussion which reality based people can easily refute.

That is why statistics is not solid science.

ravage! Seriously, which school did you attend being so gullible?**

Theres plenty of poetry by Iqbal critical of Mullay, and in no way is it specified that hes talking about a ‘minority of minority’. See here for a collection of Iqbal poetry specifically criticizing the influence of Mullay.

http://www.allamaiqbal.com/webcont/393/ONEXPOSINGCHARACTEROFSOCALLEDMUSLIMSCHOLARS.html

just one example:

Ishq say paida nawa hai zindagi main zer-o-bam
Ishq say mitti ki tasweeron main soz-e-dam badam
Aey Musalman! apney dil say pooch, mullah say na pooch
Ho gaya Allah kay bandon say kyon khali Haram

another one:

Dil hai Musalman tera na mera
Tu bhi namazi, main bhi namazi
Main janta hun anjaam uss ka
Jis maarkey main Mullah ho ghazi

oh.. and another one

Andaz-e-bayan agarchey mera shokh nahin hai
Shayad kay terey dil main uter jayye meri baat
Wo mazhab-e-mardan-e-khud agah-o-Khuda mast
Ye mazhab-e-mullah-o-jamadat-o-nabatat

A general rule to the extent that it is Allama Iqbal’s view of typical mullay.

And now yo know that there is no such thing as typical mullah which fits in to description of being bad or evil. **

Iqbal was never the discussion center as I said before, it is you (or those like you) who take of his poetry as a means to bash mullahs which is a problem.**

Lol. A median means 50%. 50% of what? You’re such a dolt, symmetric curves are not symmetric because the mean is 50% or that 50% of the distribution is equal to the mean. You can make claims like 68% of the population lies within one standard deviation from the mean and 95% lie within two standard deviations… not 50% of the population is equal to the mean.

Your overconfidence never ceases to amaze me.

**Now that you mentioned about typical then let me add here,

Median (typical) does not get affected by some outlier right?

Mean does get affected.

I say, bad or fake mullahs are outliers. Not the norm.

Hence your term of using median (typical) was again incorrect, since you seem to be including good mullahs as your target of your criticism when talk about median or typical.

Ideally you should not even use statistics and just bash the bad outliers, but if you really want to then use mean as your target not median/typical.

**** The Mean vs. the Median **

As measures of central tendency, the mean and the median each have advantages and disadvantages. Some pros and cons of each measure are summarized below.

• The median may be a better indicator of the most typical value if a set of scores has an outlier. An outlier is an extreme value that differs greatly from other values.

• However, when the sample size is large and does not include outliers, the mean score usually provides a better measure of central tendency.

To illustrate these points, consider the following example. Suppose we examine a sample of 10 households to estimate the typical family income. Nine of the households have incomes between $20,000 and $100,000; but the tenth household has an annual income of $1,000,000,000. That tenth household is an outlier. If we choose a measure to estimate the income of a typical household, the mean will greatly over-estimate the income of a typical family (because of the outlier); while the median will not.

**http://stattrek.com/AP-Statistics-1/Central-Tendency.aspx?Tutorial=Stat

**
Thats a lie. I commented twice on the first misra. Nevertheless, if you had any grounding in Urdu you would know that it is perfectly alrite to quote misray instead of complete shairs. ‘bari dair kardi mehrbaan atay atay’ etc.
**
No you did not. Quote me where you really made comment on the whole misra?** **The comment you made on it was wrong and incomplete. **

.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@X2

have an everyone must go sale on the miltant minded.

I have no issues with religiously inclined, or even those who are then religiously motivated to make a change, Pakistan can use all the help it can get. Lets have them infused with more effort towards other needs like 'real' education, health,

have them focused on building hospitals and providing healthcare to the poor, build real universities and colleges and schools. If hakim Saeed and Edhi can do it, why cant they?

sadly the mullahs are either just purity police or political mouthpieces with the thinking limited to US, Israel, UK, India, .... abay gadho, there is a world beyond that you know.

The problem is that the matter isn't so black and white. They're arresting Imams and people involved in any religious involvement, saying that somewhere along the line they donated money or helped build a school or clinic or something where some Taliban's wife's chacha-zad kid ended up being a student or getting treatment.

It gets to be VERY SCARY to donate any money anywhere, or start any initiaves in Pakistan and in underdeveloped areas. And it's not like there is some board you can go in front in the government and get a project or organization improved so down the line it doesn't get slammed for being involved in promoting terrorism.

I've known/heard of cases of people getting arrested under the patriot act, their case closed to the public, and the entire community left in schock because we all thought that the person was totally harmless. You just don't know who to trust anymore. And we're all at risk of being accused of being involved in terrorism. Pakistanis have notoriously used trace-able technologies to transfer money back to Pakistan to support their family members, and how this money has been used or manipulated down the line - who knows. People you think are harmless are probably getting in trouble for just sending money to a relative and that relative ends up giving it to some madrassah in donation, and maybe there is some suspicious activity at that place, and bam, you're accused of sponsoring terrorism. Our own methods of counter-terrorism here are faulty, and it puts everyone at edge and unease.

I think the poster has a point. We need to create a culture of understanding and peace, just as our reliigon asks us to, and then, you never know, brilliant idea, but maybe God might start helping us out when we actually follow his orders to be reasonable normal human beings that don't promote hatred and discrimination.

[X2]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

.....except this thread is about Pakistan and so was my post

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@diwana

Here the discussion merges. Neither me nor you talk about all.
I asked you earlier what problem you had with my position that there are minority of minority and fake mullahs. That is being discussed now.

No, what is being discussed endlessly, and completely unnecessarily on your part, is whether ‘all’ Mullahs are ‘fake’. You say ‘here’ the discussion merges. Unfortunately you are the one who goes on that specific diversion, on your own, and you will do once again. I’ll point out when that happens.

Again you have failed to get what fake mullah means and lets just use your terms here.
Wrong, incorrect, mental, fasadi ‘mullahs’ are Fake!
Did that help?

Fake means that they are non-representative of the whole class, where whether they are representative of Mullay is the question to be addressed. Its called begging the question. Anyway, so long as this point is clear, that in calling them fake I in no way acknowledge that they do not represent the Mullah class, im fine with fake/counterfeit/knocked off/made in china whatever.

The post 46 and yor answer in 47 talks about these two points.
Now it is you to prove these fake ones are so common that you are hell bent on using term like median or typical.

I dont intend to prove to you ‘that these fake ones are so common’. All I intend to say is that unless a qualifier is given, a comment about a category of people addresses the typical representative of that class, instead of a ‘minority of minority’ or an anomaly within that class. That is how language works, even poetic language, absent convention or metaphor. Therefore Allama Iqbal was addressing the typical mullah in his many poems referencing them, not the outlier or the anomaly or the minority of minority. To prove that Mullas who deserve Iqbal’s characterization are infact so common would go into the realm of speculation. And I, unlike you, do not speculate.

I almost fell off the chair looking at this video telling me a 28 years old Han is typical person in the world.
Did you even read why these dorky people think this person is typical person in a population of 7 billion?
Forget about 7 billion, just read the reasons they gave.
If you and I sit at home and change those parameters, even you and I can become typical persons in this world. (I know it is a stretch but the essential point remains same)
Another absurdity you brought in simple discussion which reality based people can easily refute.
That is why statistics is not solid science.

Ofcourse nobody in the world knows statistics except for you. With your glorious definitions of symmetric curve (median will be 50%!), Im perfectly confident that you have now caught the nat geo researchers unawares that there is someone who truly understands statistics, as it was meant to be, still alive.

Nevertheless, the example is just to say that what is ‘typical’ may not form an overall majority. Seven balls, three red, 2 green 1 blue 1 black. Typical ball: red. Majority of balls: not-red.

Theres plenty of poetry by Iqbal critical of Mullay, and in no way is it specified that hes talking about a ‘minority of minority’. See here for a collection of Iqbal poetry specifically criticizing the influence of Mullay.

http://www.allamaiqbal.com/webcont/3...MSCHOLARS.html

just one example:

Ishq say paida nawa hai zindagi main zer-o-bam
Ishq say mitti ki tasweeron main soz-e-dam badam
Aey Musalman! apney dil say pooch, mullah say na pooch
Ho gaya Allah kay bandon say kyon khali Haram

another one:

Dil hai Musalman tera na mera
Tu bhi namazi, main bhi namazi
Main janta hun anjaam uss ka
Jis maarkey main Mullah ho ghazi

oh.. and another one

Andaz-e-bayan agarchey mera shokh nahin hai
Shayad kay terey dil main uter jayye meri baat
Wo mazhab-e-mardan-e-khud agah-o-Khuda mast
Ye mazhab-e-mullah-o-jamadat-o-nabatat

A general rule to the extent that it is Allama Iqbal’s view of typical mullay.
And now yo know that there is no such thing as typical mullah which fits in to description of being bad or evil.
Iqbal was never the discussion center as I said before, it is you (or those like you) who take of his poetry as a means to bash mullahs which is a problem.

Hah. This is the most telling response. You completely ignore Iqbal’s poetry, damning of mullay and their influence, and insist that simply stating his poetry, without ANY speculative interpretation by me is a problem. I have produced many poems of his that bash mullay, you have produced nothing. I am using the conventional interpretation any language speaker would use, you are arguing, without basis, that HE intended as YOU see the world i.e. addressing a ‘minority of minoritys’. You offer no reasoning for that except that you dont think there are that many fake mullas. Well Im sorry, but Iqbal didnt think with your brain, or we would have far more poems on how the bell curve’s average must always be one, how the central limit theorem is really wrong etc etc.

Just produce some evidence that Iqbal intended to praise the good mullay and condemned the bad ones, and that he believed only a minority of a minority were fake. A little shairy on why people should listen to the majority of mullay please

Now that you mentioned about typical then let me add here,
Median (typical) does not get affected by some outlier right?
Mean does get affected.
I say, bad or fake mullahs are outliers. Not the norm.
Hence your term of using median (typical) was again incorrect, since you seem to be including good mullahs as your target of your criticism when talk about median or typical.

Thats what you believe where the fake mullay lie. This is where you make your mistake, you believe that Iqbal must have been using your thought process. The evidence for typicality comes not from any fictional distribution of mullay on some curve in your head. The evidence for typicality comes from: this is how people talk. When they talk about a class of people they refer to what typifies the class, not what is anomalous in it. Unless there is basis to assume so, which you only give from your own opinion of mullay, something I dont believe Iqbal ever had access to.

Just as you were self-centered when you thought I was posting that misra because I was responding to whatever point you were making, you are self-centered when you believe because they conflict with how you see mullay, Iqbal’s words could not mean what someone speaking those exact words on the street would mean, what someone writing those words anywhere would mean, what someone thinking those exact words would mean. Im sorry, but the world does not revolve around you, Iqbal was not constrained to think with your worldview, and many would feel that is a great blessing.

No you did not. Quote me where you really made comment on the whole misra? The comment you made on it was wrong and incomplete.

You mean the whole shair. This is from the three posts where talked about the first part:

if you read shikwa, he did believe that kafir, broadly speaking western kafir, did have ascendancy and were leading in spheres of thought.

I agree to the extent that intellectual and technological endeavour is in the hands of those whom Iqbal would regard as ‘kafir’. I am more of a fan of the second misra, has a real ring of truth to it.

Nevertheless, if you had any grounding in Urdu you would know that it is perfectly alrite to quote misray instead of complete shairs. ‘bari dair kardi mehrbaan atay atay’ etc.

[diwana]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@ravage

No, what is being discussed endlessly, and completely unnecessarily on your part, is whether ‘all’ Mullahs are ‘fake’. You say ‘here’ the discussion merges. Unfortunately you are the one who goes on that specific diversion, on your own, and you will do once again. I’ll point out when that happens.

If you concur on, not all, then how many do you think are bad mullahs? Any idea? Time for you commit.

Fake means that they are non-representative of the whole class, where whether they are representative of Mullay is the question to be addressed. Its called begging the question. Anyway, so long as this point is clear, that in calling them fake I in no way acknowledge that they do not represent the Mullah class, im fine with fake/counterfeit/knocked off/made in china whatever.

**There is NO such thing as class of mullahs. Get over it. Mullah is a term which specify people who have religious degree. Read the definition.

Term Mullahs is not like birds, species or class.

**

I dont intend to prove to you ‘that these fake ones are so common’. All I intend to say is that unless a qualifier is given, a comment about a category of people addresses the typical representative of that class,

**This is where I absolutely differ. The poetry of Iqbal and your understanng of his poetry are two diferent things. Instead of using term typical, whch gives an impression of generalized concept you need to clearly specify which mullahs are your target?

If you say those who are talked about in Iqbal poetry then they are not really typical of mullahs.

Those are the one who are hypocrites and surely they are not common!

If you do not agree then explain which Mullah Iqbal talked about here?

**Fikr-e-Arab ko dey key farangi takhayyulaat
Islam ko Hijaz-o-Yaman say nikaal dou
**
**
Afghanion ki ghairat-e-deen ka hai ye ILaaj
Mullah ko un kay koh-o-daman say nikaal dou

instead of a ‘minority of minority’ or an anomaly within that class. That is how language works, even poetic language, absent convention or metaphor. **Therefore Allama Iqbal was addressing the typical mullah in his many poems referencing them, not the outlier or the anomaly or the minority of minority. **

lol. Not true. Same question as above. Which Mullah he talked about above?

To prove that Mullas who deserve Iqbal’s characterization are infact so common would go into the realm of speculation. And I, unlike you, do not speculate.
**
Yes you do speculae when think Iqbal talked about typical mullahs. Its like calling Iqbal stupid. I told you you take everything on its apparent face value including the myth of chinese man as typical!
**

Ofcourse nobody in the world knows statistics except for you. With your glorious definitions of symmetric curve (median will be 50%!), Im perfectly confident that you have now caught the nat geo researchers unawares that there is someone who truly understands statistics, as it was meant to be, still alive.

**If one places all values of percentage in series from 1 to 100, what is the median?

It truned out you meant median as typical. And in my above post I refuted that. You should not use statistics at all here to begin with.
**

Nevertheless, the example is just to say that what is ‘typical’ may not form an overall majority. Seven balls, three red, 2 green 1 blue 1 black. Typical ball: red. Majority of balls: not-red.

Read above and please learn once for all, there is no such thing as typical mullah. ** If you have dreams of typical mullahs then no need to think everyone should agree with your dream.**

Hah. This is the most telling response. You completely ignore Iqbal’s poetry, damning of mullay and their influence, and insist that simply stating his poetry, without ANY speculative interpretation by me is a problem. I have produced many poems of his that bash mullay, you have produced nothing.
**Again read this and tell who are those mullahs he is referring to?

****…
**Afghanion ki ghairat-e-deen ka hai ye ILaaj
Mullah ko un kay koh-o-daman say nikaal dou

I am using the conventional interpretation any language speaker would use, you are arguing, without basis, that HE intended as YOU see the world i.e. addressing a ‘minority of minoritys’. You offer no reasoning for that except that you dont think there are that many fake mullas. Well Im sorry, but Iqbal didnt think with your brain, or we would have far more poems on how the bell curve’s average must always be one, how the central limit theorem is really wrong etc etc.

**Just produce some evidence that Iqbal intended to praise the good mullay **

Just did.

and condemned the bad ones, and that he believed only a minority of a minority were fake. A little shairy on why people should listen to the majority of mullay please
**
Do not be too over confident. I just did. :)**
**
Sorry repeated question produces repeated answer.**

Thats what you believe where the fake mullay lie.

Yes that is true. You need to bring what you think where they lie? Like I asked above, time for you to commit and not hide behind bushes.

This is where you make your mistake, you believe that Iqbal must have been using your thought process. The evidence for typicality comes not from any fictional distribution of mullay on some curve in your head. The evidence for typicality comes from: **this is how people talk. When they talk about a class of people they refer to what typifies the class, not what is anomalous in it.

**Iqbal talked about fake mullahs.

Unless there is basis to assume so, which you only give from your own opinion of mullay, something I dont believe Iqbal ever had access to.

Just as you were self-centered when you thought I was posting that misra because I was responding to whatever point you were making, you are self-centered when you believe because they conflict with how you see mullay, Iqbal’s words could not mean what someone speaking those exact words on the street would mean, what someone writing those words anywhere would mean, what someone thinking those exact words would mean. Im sorry, but the world does not revolve around you, Iqbal was not constrained to think with your worldview, and many would feel that is a great blessing.

You mean the whole shair.

No. I meant the whole misra.

This is from the three posts where talked about the first part:

if you read shikwa, he did believe that kafir, broadly speaking western kafir, did have ascendancy and were leading in spheres of thought.

I agree to the extent that intellectual and technological endeavour is in the hands of those whom Iqbal would regard as ‘kafir’. I am more of a fan of the second misra, has a real ring of truth to it.

**This is not the meaning of the whole misra as

“Deen e kafir fikr o tadbeer e jahad”

What you wrote is not what he said my fake Urdu Daan!**

Nevertheless, if you had any grounding in Urdu you would know that it is perfectly alrite to quote misray instead of complete shairs. ‘bari dair kardi mehrbaan atay atay’ etc.

OK. I need to pull the bull, by the horn here.

1- You have misunderstood Iqbal’s reference to mullahs as if he is talking about some typical mullahs which you have created in your mind.

2- He is referring to hypocrites and fake mullahs.

3- You have not come up with how many do you believe fake mullahs are. Use terms majority or minority. You can use percentage too in rough estimate.

4- There is no need to bash mullahs as so called class as you have somehow created out of nowhere.

5- The essence should be on educating people on what is the property of good mullah versus fake or bad mullah, not just making silly rhetorics of ‘eliminating’ or getting rid of mullahs’ as the title suggests.

6- Need to bring good mullahs in to spotlight and not just the bad ones.

7- Iqbal was towards having to see action on the part of people and not just rhetoric and speeches. He used words like Sheikh in lieu of mullah as well.

8- He was also inclined towards Sufi-ism and even Socialism. As a poet he said what he felt appropriate a the time and his words should not be taken literally.

---

Restored attachments:

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@diwana

If you concur on, not all, then how many do you think are bad mullahs? Any idea? Time for you commit.

Firstly my own opinion on this proportion is not relevant to what Iqbal meant in his shairy. This is the basic mistake in comprehension you have repeatedly been making. People do not share brains, I have a separate brain, Allama Iqbal had another one.

That being said, if you are asking just out of personal interest (and not because it bears to the interpretation of the misra), then I’d say I dont know of any mullay active in politics, to whom it does not fit, and a good many mullay who are indirectly political.

There is NO such thing as class of mullahs. Get over it. Mullah is a term which specify people who have religious degree. Read the definition.
Term Mullahs is not like birds, species or class.

:hehe: that my man, is a classification :D. Im sure you were thinking class… why is he talking about school, but no… a class is defined as: A set or category of things having some property or attribute in common and differentiated from others by kind, type, or quality. You have specified what property/attribute Mullas have in common.. some sort of religious degree etc.

This is where I absolutely differ. The poetry of Iqbal and your understanng of his poetry are two diferent things. Instead of using term typical, whch gives an impression of generalized concept you need to clearly specify which mullahs are your target?

If Iqbal does not specify any particular sort of Mullah, why do I need to put words in his mouth? You repeatedly make the mistake of making an interpretation yourself, and expecting that this is what Iqbal is saying.

If you say those who are talked about in Iqbal poetry then they are not really typical of mullahs.
Those are the one who are hypocrites and surely they are not common!

Once again, you’re attributing your own perspective of Mullas on Iqbal.

If you do not agree then explain which Mullah Iqbal talked about here?

Fikr-e-Arab ko dey key farangi takhayyulaat
Islam ko Hijaz-o-Yaman say nikaal dou

Afghanion ki ghairat-e-deen ka hai ye ILaaj
Mullah ko un kay koh-o-daman say nikaal dou

Now you’re talking. Now lets put this shair together with some of his other ones. First, we have my signature:

Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad

You have Iqbal’s recommendation for Muslims, when it comes to seeking understanding of their religion:

Aey Musalman! apney dil say pooch, mullah say na pooch
Ho gaya Allah kay bandon say kyon khali Haram

We have his disparaging descriptions of the religion as expounded by clerics

Wo mazhab-e-mardan-e-khud agah-o-Khuda mast
Ye mazhab-e-mullah-o-jamadat-o-nabatat

Alfaaz-o-maani main tafawat nahin lekin
Mullah ki azan aur hai, Mujahid ki azan aur
Parwaaz hai dono ki issi aik fiza main
Girgis ka jahan aur hai, Shaheen ka jahan aur

Then we have the shair you’ve contributed:

Fikr-e-Arab ko dey key farangi takhayyulaat
Islam ko Hijaz-o-Yaman say nikaal dou
Afghanion ki ghairat-e-deen ka hai ye ILaaj
Mullah ko un kay koh-o-daman say nikaal dou

Iqbal exhorted religious nationalism and personal struggle (Khudi). He combined German idealism (in the mould of Kant and Nietzsche) with Sufism (as you mention). To that effect, he promoted a personal relationship with God, with a view to producing Muslim supermen. To that extent he exhorted that Muslims deny Mullay the role they usually like to grab, as leaders of men as the source of Godly authority. He wanted Muslims in general to elevate themselves to an intimate connection with Allah instead of seeking religious outlet with their mullay and peers.

This is not to say he wanted to cleanse the world of Mullay. This is not to say that he did not see (a much more restricted than they have in our country) role for them. The couplet you mention is in the voice of Shaitan, who wishes to remove Islam entirely from the world. The parallel might be drawn with Chinese or Stalnist eradication of religious institutions.

So in summary, while he disparaged the role Mullas play in our society, and wanted Muslim religious development to be personal and a catalyst for action (as opposed to the hidebound orthodoxy of the clerics) he at the same time did not want a cultural invasion where religious institutions and culture were removed with a view to eliminating religion in general.

Do not be too over confident. I just did.
Sorry repeated question produces repeated answer.

You did NOT produce evidence that Iqbal talks about most Mullas being good and only criticies a small minority of ‘fake’ mullay. All you did was give evidence that Iqbal did not want the elimination of Mullas as a whole, which I wholeheartedly endorse.

Your principal claim is unsubstantiated i.e. that his many many poems on what Mullay do, what their religion is like etc etc refers to a ‘minority of minority’ fake mullay.

This is not the meaning of the whole misra as
“Deen e kafir fikr o tadbeer e jahad”
What you wrote is not what he said my fake Urdu Daan!

In what way am I incorrect?

If one places all values of percentage in series from 1 to 100, what is the median?

How is this equivalent to a symmetric normal distribution :smack:. Bhai rehne do, you really should just stay out of technical fields, if you are still in school and havent chosen a major yet.

1- You have misunderstood Iqbal’s reference to mullahs as if he is talking about some typical mullahs which you have created in your mind.2- He is referring to hypocrites and fake mullahs.5- The essence should be on educating people on what is the property of good mullah versus fake or bad mullah, not just making silly rhetorics of ‘eliminating’ or getting rid of mullahs’ as the title suggests.

I have not made any assumptions in my interpretations. You have morphed your own worldview and claimed it as Iqbals. He doesnt qualify that he is only talking about fake mullas, he doesnt makes that distinction to begin with. He doesnt educate on properties of good mullas vs bad mullas. This is all your creation, and you rely on nothing but repetition to make your case.

8- He was also inclined towards Sufi-ism and even Socialism. As a poet he said what he felt appropriate a the time and his words should not be taken literally.

haha. so because he was inclined towards sufi-ism and even socialism we shouldnt take him literally. or were these two sentences disjoint and disconnected… i can never tell.

[NomiCA]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

Yaar tusi kinnay wailay o

[ravage]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

i make time for important things like kicking around diwana and bashing mullay. a two-fer is irresistable.

[McPendo]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@NomiCA

Yaar tusi kinnay wailay o

[diwana]

Re: How to free Pakistani society from Mullahs

@ravage

Firstly my own opinion on this proportion is not relevant to what Iqbal meant in his shairy. This is the basic mistake in comprehension you have repeatedly been making. People do not share brains, I have a separate brain, Allama Iqbal had another one.

That being said, if you are asking just out of personal interest (and not because it bears to the interpretation of the misra), then I’d say I dont know of any mullay active in politics, to whom it does not fit, and a good many mullay who are indirectly political.

Finally, you came out behind the bush. You do know there are a lot of mullahs who are doing their job sincerely and not in to politics
directly or indirectly. Now if they are given the chance they would bring sense to any menace created by fake ones.

Here is what I have said repeatdly, instead of b*ng mullahs as evil group or class of individuals one need to think mature way.

that my man, is a classification :D. Im sure you were thinking class…

LOL! What part of my post gave you this silly idea? Try not to add something which was not even said.

why is he talking about school, but no… a class is defined as: A set or category of things having some property or attribute in common and differentiated from others by kind, type, or quality. You have specified what property/attribute Mullas have in common.. some sort of religious degree etc.

LOL. I can say spare me from the definition but as a gentleman I’ll say, thanks for the time exlaining.

If Iqbal does not specify any particular sort of Mullah, why do I need to put words in his mouth? You repeatedly make the mistake of making an interpretation yourself, and expecting that this is what Iqbal is saying.

Becayse snyne with AS little brain siize as pea would know Iqbal did not mean ALL mulahs, nor he meant thise mullahs who are well educaated.

Isn’t this the reason why I say you are very concrete minded.

1-You think statistics is dolid sceince.

2- You believe National Geographic typical man in the world.

3- You think Iqbal when he wrutes poetry he means bad mullahs as typical mullahs.

5- Next time we have discssion will you tell me Santa is real! …“shudders”

**My advice: Stop reading too much. Get reality check oncee on a while. **

Once again, you’re attributing your own perspective of Mullas on Iqbal.

You are giving way too much credit to me. But thanks.

Now you’re talking.

Now you are getting maybe the right scenario. But thanks again.

Now lets put this shair together with some of his other ones. First, we have my signature:

Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad

You have Iqbal’s recommendation for Muslims, when it comes to seeking understanding of their religion:

Aey Musalman! apney dil say pooch, mullah say na pooch
Ho gaya Allah kay bandon say kyon khali Haram

We have his disparaging descriptions of the religion as expounded by clerics

Wo mazhab-e-mardan-e-khud agah-o-Khuda mast
Ye mazhab-e-mullah-o-jamadat-o-nabatat

Alfaaz-o-maani main tafawat nahin lekin
Mullah ki azan aur hai, Mujahid ki azan aur
Parwaaz hai dono ki issi aik fiza main
Girgis ka jahan aur hai, Shaheen ka jahan aur

Then we have the shair you’ve contributed:

Fikr-e-Arab ko dey key farangi takhayyulaat
Islam ko Hijaz-o-Yaman say nikaal dou
Afghanion ki ghairat-e-deen ka hai ye ILaaj
Mullah ko un kay koh-o-daman say nikaal dou

Iqbal exhorted religious nationalism and personal struggle (Khudi). He combined German idealism (in the mould of Kant and Nietzsche) with Sufism (as you mention). To that effect, he promoted a personal relationship with God, with a view to producing Muslim supermen. To that extent he exhorted that Muslims deny Mullay the role they usually like to grab, as leaders of men as the source of Godly authority. He wanted Muslims in general to elevate themselves to an intimate connection with Allah instead of seeking religious outlet with their mullay and peers.

This is not to say he wanted to cleanse the world of Mullay. This is not to say that he did not see (a much more restricted than they have in our country) role for them. The couplet you mention is in the voice of Shaitan, who wishes to remove Islam entirely from the world. The parallel might be drawn with Chinese or Stalnist eradication of religious institutions.

This is the part where he says mullahs are the reason for gharait e deen. And iin his opinion a positive role of mullahs.

**Glad to see you got the point funally that he did not have any such idea of ‘typical mullahs’. **

Like I said as well, there ARE no typical mullahs.

Bash only those who BY ACTION are bad and in reality fake.

So in summary, while he disparaged the role Mullas play in our society, and wanted Muslim religious development to be personal and a catalyst for action (as opposed to the hidebound orthodoxy of the clerics) he at the same time did not want a cultural invasion where religious institutions and culture were removed with a view to eliminating religion in general.

OK.

You did NOT produce evidence that Iqbal talks about most Mullas being good and only criticies a small minority of ‘fake’ mullay.

**Never meant to when gave example. Merely refuted your assertion that he was somehow thinkng of a typical role by mullas as being fruitles , negative or harmful. And this was a strong evidence. **

All you did was give evidence that Iqbal did not want the elimination of Mullas as a whole, which I wholeheartedly endorse.

Good. But there is also no such thing as typucal class of mullah. No need to shy now saying that too.

Your principal claim is unsubstantiated i.e. that his many many poems on what Mullay do, what their religion is like etc etc refers to a ‘minority of minority’ fake mullay.

Like I said, minority or mahority was never meant to be proved, it was the false notion of typical mullahs which was refuted by me…succesfully.

In what way am I incorrect?

How is this equivalent to a symmetric normal distribution .

Bhai rehne do, you really should just stay out of technical fields, if you are still in school and havent chosen a major yet.

Already showed your trial of statistics by using median or typical value was incorrect in defining typical mullahs. Refer to post 51. All you answered was it was in my head () where evil mullahs lie.

Read that again.

"Now that you mentioned about typical then let me add here,

Median (typical) does not get affected by some outlier right?

Mean does get affected.

**I say, bad or fake mullahs are outliers. Not the norm. **

Hence your term of using median (typical) was again incorrect, since you seem to be including good mullahs as your target of your criticism when talk about median or typical.

Ideally you should not even use statistics and just bash the bad outliers, but if you really want to then use mean as your target not median/typical."

I have not made any assumptions in my interpretations. You have morphed your own worldview and claimed it as Iqbals. He doesnt qualify that he is only talking about fake mullas, he doesnt makes that distinction to begin with.

He doesnt educate on properties of good mullas vs bad mullas.
Yes he dies and you hyst admitted above, he did not brand all mullahs same!

This is all your creation, and you rely on nothing but repetition to make your case.

That was strong evidence of not braanding all mullahs same by him and not typical either.

haha. so because he was inclined towards sufi-ism and even socialism we shouldnt take him literally. or were these two sentences disjoint and disconnected… i can never tell.

**Yes, since he was looking at mullahs with different angle at different times. Mullah and durwesh conflict my friend. **

**Also like it is said above, he at the time thought more of personal action by individuals instead of following blindly which I also say time and time again. **

**As a poet exaggerated his thoughts like poets do. **

Poetry and statistics are not related to reality per se.

You have not yet given correct understanding of the completer shayr. And asking me how yo are incorrect..

Deen e Kafir Fikro Tadbeer e Jahad
Deen e Mulla Fi Sabeelillah Fasaad

Here in my understanding he is usng fi sabeelollah as pun to add wth fasaad against what usually religious people say fi sabeelillah jahad. He says others are doing true jahad like going against their enemies while these fake mullahs are busy in creating fasaad among themselves.

Nothing to do with intellectual and technological endeavor as you said twice. You do know he was for khilafat movement?

@ravage

i make time for important things like kicking around diwana and bashing mullay. a two-fer is irresistable.

But you could not do that in last two discussions we had and before this you said you did not want to answer me calling me troll. Just could not come up with the answer. Remember?