Who calls teh cattle black, a mafia boss crying about Feudal system. A murderer, bhatta khour crying over Feudalism.
And Feudalism only exists in interior Sindh and South Punjab, both strong holds of PPP. And not too long ago the MQM supporters were praising BB all the time and calling Musharraf/BB combo best thing for Pakistan. Again MQM has always been trying to get close ties with PPP which has all the feudals and are their partners in Sindh.
So plz save us from Feudal system argument.
who is the murderer and bhatta khor crying about fuedalism?
if you dont want to be part of a fuedal system argument, dont participate in the thread its as simple as that you know :)
skimming king faisals post I think it has it pretty much summed up.
basically if your economy is growing and your country is getting prosperous, outdated systems such as feudalism will go away by themselves. this is why urban areas in provinces with strong feudal traditions like Punjab and Sindh do not have this system anymore.
the whole premise that development happened in the US because of the civil war is pretty silly. There was no shortage of landowners in the north, and I dont see how ending bonded labour increased prosperity.
ravage , yeah that was a good post, very to the point.
Now is there any truth that fuedals have stopped development in their areas and closed off education opportunities to maintain their stronghold? i mean we hear it all the time but so far I have not seen any proof of that
Industries grew rapidly in Pakistan of 60's and 70's, which raised the concerns in the minds of educated 'fuedals', who do not want to lose the power they inherited. Z.A.Bhutto nationalized the industries, even when it was contributing 13-14% of the nation's economy. Since the trend was uphill, so it was dealt at the "right" time, to ensure stability of feudal system. Today, much of the political power resides with feudals. With the exception of Karachi, national assembly members from major cities have strong ties with feudals, or are themselves landowners. How we see mqm, is upto us, but there is no doubt in my mind, any movement, challenging the fundamentals of a system, would face a hard time from the system owners. There are parallels, with the US history. Ironically, except for karachi, people from other places, seem fine with this system, and still hope that country will see industrial development one day. The question in my mind is how to get rid of this system? It seems to me, it’s getting stronger everyday.
Though MQM's individual MNAs/MPAs are not from "landlord/feudal" families but the fact that the control-string of all these MPAs/MNAs remains in hands of Altaf Hussein. How is it different from Zardari calling shots while Gilani is in power? I don't think there is any difference.
As Sa1eem bhai has pointed out in past that "fuedal" system is not merely a "landlord" imposing his authority in his area, "getting" all the votes in his constituency etc., but the fact that no political parties hold internal elections for several key positions is also a form of fuedalism. Jamate Islami has Qazi Hussein, JUI has Fazlur Rehman, PML-N Nawaz Sharif, Benazir was lifetime-leader of PPP till she died etc. What is all this? This is fuedalism too. I don't know how any party in Pakistan is not "feudal".
ravage , yeah that was a good post, very to the point.
Now is there any truth that fuedals have stopped development in their areas and closed off education opportunities to maintain their stronghold? i mean we hear it all the time but so far I have not seen any proof of that
How would you believe that? :-) Recently there were news of brick-kilns invasions and "bonded-labor" freed. This is one "feudalism". Pakistani dramas have shown many times how feudals have kept population/farmers under their control away from any education, away from urban-like facilities otherwise they'd stop listening to the "lords".
Though MQM's individual MNAs/MPAs are not from "landlord/feudal" families but the fact that the control-string of all these MPAs/MNAs remains in hands of Altaf Hussein. How is it different from Zardari calling shots while Gilani is in power? I don't think there is any difference.
As Sa1eem bhai has pointed out in pasts that "fuedal" system is not merely a "landlord" imposing his authority in his area, "getting" all the votes in his constituency etc., but the fact that no political parties hold internal elections for several key positions is also a form of fuedalism. Jamate Islami has Qazi Hussein, JUI has Fazlur Rehman, PML-N Nawaz Sharif, Benazir was lifetime-leader of PPP till she died etc. What is all this? This is fuedalism too. I don't know how any party is Pakistan is not "feudal".
not that I am a JI fan, but someone on this forum pointed out that JI or JUI one of em do have elections.
not that I am a JI fan, but someone on this forum pointed out that JI or JUI one of em do have elections.
rest I have no argument with.
JI used to have elections, ever since "emergence" of Qazi sahib this thing hasn't been heard of. I have heard that when he wants to step down people (probably the "shura" people) stop him from doing that. I am pretty confident that at one time Qazi had refused to step down (probably in beginning of his becoming JI Chief) and in protest some of "shura" members resigned and formed their own party.
ravage , yeah that was a good post, very to the point.
Now is there any truth that fuedals have stopped development in their areas and closed off education opportunities to maintain their stronghold? i mean we hear it all the time but so far I have not seen any proof of that
there probably is some truth to the idea that feudals would block certain kinds of development in order to maintain a stronghold. i mean it makes intuitive sense from a self interest perspective of a feudal to do so, although i have no evidence for it. ehtasab says there is, i believe him since it makes sense.
however even then I dont really see the need for Government intervention. I do not believe there is a sizeable proportion of the population in rural areas that cant move around if they so choose. so long as they are free to move around, and assuming other areas of the country are outstripping their area in terms of levels of development with this one guy holding down the fort, they'll just abandon him. I dont believe ties of lord and thrall are strong enough to last in the face of otherwise ubiquitous prosperity.
after all people move from rural to urban areas for this very reason, and pretty much abandon feudal relationship thereafter, aside possibly from voting time (which isnt a huge issue imo). the key is just for rural areas to be developed, with good economic policies, develop the areas that can be developed, and there is reason to hope that social change will be a by product.
Before formation of MQM, it was JAMIAT who was represnting Karachi, and the elected members were also from MIDDLE class. So the argument that Karachi doesn't support FUEDS holds its ground.
As for the topic, only by economic growth and a strong middle class we can get rid of fudal influenace in our political system. Unfortunately, it's not gonna happen any sooner.
I think it is more the (military) bureaucatism that has caused problems...Feudals may be impeding reformation at the substructural level of the society but it is sustained by the centralised and bureaucratic system at the super structural level.
its not just whether there is fuedalism in that area, but in the greater scheme of things who has the power in the country. fuedals, mullahs and military basically, and upstart ghundas. That trend needs to change. so while u dont expect a fuedal lord running some isloo mohalla, lets look at our assemblies and see what type of ppl are in power.
I agree, but I was bringing that in because our friend robert was giving very weak examples pertaining to one city, and its defiance against feudals.
I agree, but I was bringing that in because our friend robert was giving very weak examples pertaining to one city, and its defiance against feudals.
I did not say that fuedal system is in place in lahore or islamabad. My point was, most assembly members, who win from these cities, have fuedal background. They have a land somewhere in the village. Middle class people (the actual metro people) do not get to win.
speaking of swimmer, a swimming pool in islamabad, is no use to a swimmer in karachi.
I did not say that fuedal system is in place in lahore or islamabad. My point was, most assembly members, who win from these cities, have fuedal background. They have a land somewhere in the village. Middle class people (the actual metro people) do not get to win.
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lol yar bongiyaan na maro. The candidates who contested or won at Islamabad, Rawalpindi lets see... Shiekh Rasheed has no land in villages. I despise the man but saying hes feudal is something that only altaf bhai can come up with. Ijaz-ul-haq is another one that comes to mind. Raja Sahid Zafar is a business man, zumurd khan, nayar hussain bukhari, kokhar, they arent feudals!
majority of the feudal lords have their education from worlds prestigious universities....for example (bhutto khandan), but still they rule in their areas, as a Lords do.
....cuz these lords think that the day they give education to these so called "ka'mi-kameen", they will ask for justice (hisab-kitab of properties), and they gonna be same as them (in terms of education, wisdom, personality, etc)...so they dont want to lose free labor workers whom they pay less a dollar a month. these lords treat them worse than their dogs.
its a power-relationship idea....so change their mentality that "ker bhala, ho bhala" and u will make a better pakistan.
ps. they wont let anyone open the schools, hospital in their rural areas. the only perha likha person will be the "munchi" of that area.