The civil war in the USA, was won by the industrial north. Southern states wanted the right to own slaves (free labor), while north east were employing and paying people, locals and those arriving from Europe and other places. That victory against feudals of the south, was an important milestone, and changed America forever (hopefully). Industrial revolution spread across the globe, reached India and Pakistan. Industries grew rapidly in Pakistan of 60’s and 70’s, which raised the concerns in the minds of educated ‘fuedals’, who do not want to lose the power they inherited. Z.A.Bhutto nationalized the industries, even when it was contributing 13-14% of the nation’s economy. Since the trend was uphill, so it was dealt at the “right” time, to ensure stability of feudal system. Today, much of the political power resides with feudals. With the exception of Karachi, national assembly members from major cities have strong ties with feudals, or are themselves landowners. How we see mqm, is upto us, but there is no doubt in my mind, any movement, challenging the fundamentals of a system, would face a hard time from the system owners. There are parallels, with the US history. Ironically, except for karachi, people from other places, seem fine with this system, and still hope that country will see industrial development one day. The question in my mind is how to get rid of this system? It seems to me, it’s getting stronger everyday.
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Ironically, except for karachi, people from other places, seem fine with this system, and still hope that country will see industrial development one day.
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I didnt know there were feudalism prevailing in cities like Islamabad, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Faisalabad, etc In fact, if we go by your reasoning, we can also say that the people of Karachi are fine with the royal bhatta treatment they get at the hands of the so called anti-feudal party. What is the difference between a feudal landlord and Altaf bhai (your answer to feudalism)? Both of them extort, torture and misuse people through their own means.
Yar ab yeh MQM key ghissey pittey agendoon ko change kar key nayee cheez par ajayo.
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
^ man, you had no argument there. You just bashed mqm.
As I said, people outside karachi seem fine with the idea of living in ancient egypt
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
Asan tareeqa hey...Fuedal khatam ker do
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
Maybe you should step outside of Karachi once in a while then. You'll be shocked.
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
Rob reminds me of that female swimmer who appeared on that program on GEO . The host talked about Pak's poor performance and she goes 'jee pakistan me Olympics standard ka pool nahee hai'. The host quickly pointed out that just because there wasnt one in Karachi, that does not mean there wasn't one in Pakistan, and there was a very nice one built in Islamabad back in 1989 to conduct the SAF Games. The girl goes quiet and goes 'jee mey islamabad nahee gayi'.
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
well its basically against ghunda gardee, whether by old school ghunday i.e. fuedals and tribal leaders or new school ghunday i.e. altaf.
and some can say with military phannkay khan pana they can be called official ghunday.
the influence of all these ppl should be limited.
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
Ending feudal system is easy, just need following few steps
1- Give Bhatta to MQM
2- Kill Punjabis labourers and put the dead bodies in sacks
3- Burn lawyers alive
4- Shoot protestors in streets
5- Get 10% votes of Sindh and 50% of the Sindh cabinet
6- Call all Pashtuns Taliban
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
so no chance of discussing this topic properly here then eh?
well its basically against ghunda gardee, whether by old school ghunday i.e. fuedals and tribal leaders or new school ghunday i.e. altaf. and some can say with military phannkay khan pana they can be called official ghunday.
the influence of all these ppl should be limited.
I agree...
so no chance of discussing this topic properly here then eh?
I dont see anything improper? correct me if im wrong.
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
basically it comes down to accountability, will we ever be able to completely make it a level playign field for everyone in the country to be in political office? no.
fuedals for lack of a better comparison are like special interest groups in US, u have to pander to them to get their support, similarly, politicians in pakistan pander to fuedals to get in power. Or the politicians are fuedals or other ghunday themselves.
a real clean legal system, a free press, will go a long way.
But the cleaning house is an issue...how and who.
we missed a golden chance to do just that this decade, and I am not sure when we will have that chance again.
I dont see anything improper? correct me if im wrong.
I am correcting you, its posts like those that have nothing to do with the topic that make the topic what it is not. one here and there can be tolerated, now imagine 5, 6..10 people doing that, that degenerates the thread very quickly.
I think this is a worthwhile topic, and if people can discuss it in a mature manner it could lead to a good exchange of ideas. or we can let it be lost as another threads of posturing, sarcasm, attacks, tangents.
its the choice of the participants on what they want to do
I am correcting you, its posts like those that have nothing to do with the topic that make the topic what it is not. one here and there can be tolerated, now imagine 5, 6..10 people doing that, that degenerates the thread very quickly.
I think this is a worthwhile topic, and if people can discuss it in a mature manner it could lead to a good exchange of ideas. or we can let it be lost as another threads of posturing, sarcasm, attacks, tangents.
its the choice of the participants on what they want to do
I dont know which posts you are talking about, but if you are referring to mine, it was in response to Roberts statement that people outside of karachi are backward and want to live in ancient Egypt or something. Now Ive lived in a city outside of KArachi, which is much more developed and peaceful, and Ive never had either an MQM thug or a feudal come bother me, attack me, persecute or extort me. The reason why I mentioned the MQM was because according to Robert, the MQM is the solution to all the problems, including the feudals
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
What do you expect X2.
Who calls teh cattle black, a mafia boss crying about Feudal system. A murderer, bhatta khour crying over Feudalism.
And Feudalism only exists in interior Sindh and South Punjab, both strong holds of PPP. And not too long ago the MQM supporters were praising BB all the time and calling Musharraf/BB combo best thing for Pakistan. Again MQM has always been trying to get close ties with PPP which has all the feudals and are their partners in Sindh.
So plz save us from Feudal system argument.
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
The answer is simple but difficult to enforce. Educate the subjects of the feudals and offer them better opportunities. One thing that is extremely important is that power needs to be concentrated where it belongs and the country should be arms free. Licensed weapons allowed with a certain limit on the number of weapons allowed. And ofcourse, everyone needs to be judged by the same laws. All this is easier said than done given people who would support these views are in scarce minority. This leaves us with only one answer, any change in Pakistan can only be implemented with Danda. Never fails to work in Pakistan. Jis ki lathi us ki bhais.
basically it comes down to accountability, will we ever be able to completely make it a level playign field for everyone in the country to be in political office? no.
fuedals for lack of a better comparison are like special interest groups in US, u have to pander to them to get their support, similarly, politicians in pakistan pander to fuedals to get in power. Or the politicians are fuedals or other ghunday themselves.
a real clean legal system, a free press, will go a long way.
But the cleaning house is an issue...how and who.
we missed a golden chance to do just that this decade, and I am not sure when we will have that chance again.
All is not lost, there are still places in Pakistan where theres no feudalism or gangs, and the crime rate is relatively low. A good starting point would be to try to find out why this so. For instance, the only feudalism I can think of in a city like Islamabad is the recent attempts by our great army to acquire land illegally and start making their GHQ over there. Hopefully the civilian govt would stop them from ruining the capital and keep them where they are in Rawalpindi because we dont need another GHQ, and that too at the most expensive place in the capital city.
Re: How to end a fuedal system?
best way to end feudalism is to develop the economy which is why bhutto was bent on destroying the urban economy of pak through nationalisation. growing economy increases demand for labour which attracts rural labour into cities. rural labour in pak depends on subsistence farming on land controlled by local wadera. in return for allowing hari to till the land, wadera takes a percentage of crops. since hari is dependent on wadera for survival, hari has no choice but to obey wadera's every command. this relationship starts to break when rural labour starts to move to cities as result of better opportunities.
feudal relationship also starts to break when growth in rural economy starts to pick up which in turn creates a demand for rural labour. in pakistan due to water shortage as a result of lack of storage, area available for agriculture has been stagnant for many years. this is a very serious problem considering the population growth rate. in pakistan, best way to improve the local economy would be for the govt to bring arid area in sindh and balochistan under cultivation which would require construction of dams and irrigation waterways. once infrastructure is available, govt can lease land to haris on favourable terms.
waderas for obvious reasons dont want to see change in rural economic structure because change would end wadera monopoly on land as well as wadera control of haris. which hari in his right mind would work for wadera if he could till his own land on profitable terms? this is precisely why ppp opposes kalabagh dam. voting pattern clearly indicates that ppp is a party of feudals. feudal belt in pak basically comprises of rural sind and southern punjab which is ppp base of support. outside southern punjab, agriculture sector operates mostly on commercial basis which is why punjab is the agriculture heartland of pak. also smaller urban centres of punjab such as sialkot and gujrat also have thriving industrial sector which has further decreased wadera influence. unfortunately no such industry exists in cities of interior sind because these cities are controlled by waderas.
improvement in rural economy will also improve strain on large urban centres like karachi and lahore which have become some of the largest cities on earth in a very short span of time due to migration from rural areas. given the expected growth in world economy, this is a very good opportunity for govt to devise a strategy to turn pakistan into a major agriculture producing country of the world. even without putting in a lot of effort, pak has emerged as one of the top cotton, wheat and rice producing countries in the world. however sky is the limit if govt could come up with a sensible strategy to achieve this goal. with the current lot in power, i would not hold too much hope.
I dont know which posts you are talking about,
no bro it was not your post.
All is not lost, there are still places in Pakistan where theres no feudalism or gangs, and the crime rate is relatively low. .
its not just whether there is fuedalism in that area, but in the greater scheme of things who has the power in the country. fuedals, mullahs and military basically, and upstart ghundas. That trend needs to change. so while u dont expect a fuedal lord running some isloo mohalla, lets look at our assemblies and see what type of ppl are in power.